The Last Thing We Need is a Great Leader
POSTED BY: AnthonyT
UPDATED: Friday, September 19, 2025 16:46
VIEWED: 6995
PAGE 2 of 9
Quote:You deny elements of truth in the above, Simon?
Originally posted by SimonWho:
I don't know what's funnier, that you posted that or that you believe it.
Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
You deny elements of truth in the above, Simon?
It's all true, except the "American's did it alone" part.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:You deny elements of truth in the above, Simon?
Originally posted by SimonWho:
I don't know what's funnier, that you posted that or that you believe it.
Elements of truth, yes. But I think the native Americans would a) tell him to fuck off for saying the country was nothing before our mutual ancestors turned up and b) tell him to fuck off again for ignoring their help when the settlers were literally starving then c) tell him to fuck right off for slaughtering them like bison.
There's similar issues with the other points but talking about being an American as though it's the same as being an X-Man is just mad. You're not the freest nation on earth, nor the most democratic and even in the richest nations, people need some help. Even multi-millionaires like Penn Gillette.
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I believe the aspect was more about attitude than actual historical focus.
When you confront an American with an impossible task, they'll damn well try, most of em, and some of em have even succeeded over the years.
We're crazy like that - and so, our attitude towards this mess should be "We can fix this" instead of "We're all dooooomed!", you know ?
"We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty!"
-F
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Hello all,
I think the point that Jillette was making is a point missed by some of you.
When you boil down the presidency to what it was intended to be, you realize it doesn't take a brilliant man to do the job. It's rather simple, really. What requires brains (and charisma), is the abuse of power with the people's consent.
What we DO need in the oval office is someone with integrity. That's what is missing. Not brains. Not charisma. Simple common sense and integrity would fill the post to the utmost.
So no, I don't want my President to be the smartest guy in the room. I want him to be honest and capable of utilizing simple logic. There are probably any number of old hick farmers in the stix who could do the job as it was designed.
-=-=-=-=-
As an aside, I think it's important to remember that as proud as we are in the US for carving out the frontier and making a nation of it, the whole of Europe and Asia did not spring forth from the heavens fully-formed. They all conquered their frontiers long ago, and some of them even had Democracy before we did. Generations of great men and heroes rose and fell long before the United States was even a glimmer in anyone's eyes. We came from Europe and Asia, and so we are the evolution of all that they created across the sea. If we are mighty, it is because we stand upon the shoulders of the giants who came before us. Giants from the Old World.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I believe the aspect was more about attitude than actual historical focus.
When you confront an American with an impossible task, they'll damn well try, most of em, and some of em have even succeeded over the years.
We're crazy like that - and so, our attitude towards this mess should be "We can fix this" instead of "We're all dooooomed!", you know ?
"We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty!"
-F
Yes, except dealing with big problems requires leadership. Indeed most of the achievements mentioned above had great leaders pushing them on (Roosevelt, Kennedy, Ike) rather than just the government just shrugging and saying "You're on your own." Things like global warming require real leadership and unfortunately true cynics like Jillette (who I love as a magician) simply will never get that.
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Yes, a sense of integrity, a sense of what's right,
and I want a smart President who's sense of what is right is based on weighing information, is based on an understanding and appreciation of the Constitution, not on a gut wisdom...not on a rigid moral system that may be faulty or outdated, biased and schizophrenic.
I get it, smart Presidents can have agendas that are aimed at undermining the Constitution and controlling people. Stupid Presidents can be controlled by the very same types of people, but in those situations, we can't even hold any person who is actually RESPONSIBLE for these horrendous decisions responsible, because they hae a puppet to take the fall instead.
....
on edit, I know just how likely it is that we would hold anybody responsible, not very.
....
by the way, Obama has talked about his campaign, saying,
"It has become increasingly clear in my travel, the campaign -- that the crowds, the enthusiasm, 200,000 people in Berlin, is not about me at all. It's about America. I have just become a symbol."
Now, either that's humble, or that's smart, or both, but it goes to the core of my annoyance with the notion that if we want a smart guy to represent us its because we want to be taken care of.
We created government to deal with things that are bigger than the individual. Ours is a representative government. This is how we make decisions in Washington, not how we pass the buck to somebody else to take care of us.
I hate that meme that government is about babysitting. every time we want a President to look after the interests that we as a nation seem to care about, we get these silly comments about "why do we need a daddy government" "aren't we capable of taking care of ourselves"...etc. We are, in theory, if we involve ourselves in the democratic process, if we actually use our government to collectively do with our nation what we choose to do with it.
That's not our government looking after us, that's us making a small effort in looking after our government. Sure, it's not enough, sadly.
We need to put pressure on the officials we elect, we need to vote in primaries, we need to put money into causes and organizations that can effectively illuminate issues we care about...etc. but voting into office a competent person who reflects our values, is not supposed to be passing the buck, is not supposed to be electing a savior.
I'd wager most Obama supporters feel the way that I do, that voting our values is taking a small part of the responsibility for this nation.
We are casting our vote for a change in the tone that our nation has spoken with for the last 8 years. That alone isn't enough to keep a representative democracy a democracy maybe, but none of us are trying to welcome "Emperor Obama" to preside over us in his infinite Omniscience.
When we vote in a President we are delegating our duties to him. I would think we'd want a competent, smart, individidual, and yes, one with integrity as well. It's the United States of America we're talking about here. Is it really unreasonable to expect all of the above from our elected official?
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This is NOT the sign of a great leader:
[Excerpted from John McCain's convention speech tonight]
Quote:
I fight to restore the pride and principles of our party. We were elected to change Washington, and we let Washington change us. We lost -- we lost the trust of the American people when some Republicans gave in to the temptations of corruption. [including John McCain] We lost their trust when rather than reform government, both parties made it bigger. [And McCain is included in that group, too.]
We lost their trust when instead of freeing ourselves from a dangerous dependence on foreign oil, both parties and Senator Obama [and Senator McCain] passed another corporate welfare bill for oil companies. We lost their trust when we valued our power over our principles.
We're going to change that. [but not any time soon...]
In other words, "I know we screwed up, and I was a vocal supporter of those screwups, and fought hard for them, and we utterly screwed things up - but if you elect me, I'll try to change now. I haven't changed in the past 30 years, but now I think I can."
He doesn't get that he's had the chance to BE a leader all along, and has chosen NOT TO BE one, but to go along with whatever the others wanted to do, knowing full well it was absolutely not in our best interests, but rather in HIS best interests.
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I can agree with some of what Penn says, but the bit about not wanting a President that's smarter than me? Why the fuck wouldn't I want that? Why is there something seen in this country as inherently wrong with the idea that the President of the United States should be the smartest guy in any room he's in? Why is it a BAD idea to have an intelligent person in the White House?
I hear ya, but I think you're taking him a might too literally. There's more than a little tongue in his cheek, but it's all to make a point. What we don't want is the expectation that great leadership, or great government in general, will solve all our problems. He's trying to warn against the common political presumption that government can and should make everything 'all better'.
Government is really only good at solving a small minority of our problems and needs to stay the hell out of the way concerning the rest of them. That doesn't take a lot of smarts, and it doesn't take great leadership. I just takes an honest understanding of the limitations of government and a respect for the freedom of the population.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:*Waves to fellow utopian dreamer*
Originally posted by SergeantX:
It just takes an honest understanding of the limitations of government and a respect for the freedom of the population.
isall
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