What kind of fuking sht is this? Is this our America???

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Sunday, August 17, 2008 18:55
VIEWED: 5049
PAGE 1 of 1

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, August 13, 2008 3:10 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/05/nyregion/05detain-nand.html

Quote:
On Jan. 25, 2005, the day after Mr. Nand’s last call from Eloy, about midway between Phoenix and Tucson, he was found slumped in the lobby of the detention center’s clinic suffering cardiac arrest

So, we KILL by attrition, letting peeps die in detention?

FUCK this immigration policy. FUCK the peeps that think this is humane. This is just a small example of our war against humanity. Sorry, I mean, 'war against illegal immigration', or 'war against terror', or whatever.

I've seen the enemy, and it is us.

Want MORE????
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/nyregion/13detain.html?hp

This ain't MOVEON or any of the other places NeoFuckingCons like to dis, this is the Fucking NEW YORK FUCKING TIMES, apologist asshats.

Really fucking pissed Chrisisall

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Wednesday, August 13, 2008 3:24 AM

Oh my God, What the hell was wrong with those people? Why was he detained? WTF!

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

OUT2THEBLACK

Wednesday, August 13, 2008 7:09 AM

A little piece of you
The little peace in me
Will die
For this is not america

Blossom fails to bloom
This season
Promise not to stare
Too long
For this is not a miracle

There was a time
A storm that blew so pure
For this could be the biggest sky
And I could have
The faintest idea

Snowman melting
From the inside
Falcon spirals
to the ground
So bloody red
Tomorrows clouds

SHINYGOODGUY

Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:26 AM

This is beyond sick. If it wasn't for the writer of this article describing the various detention centers he was taken to, I could have sworn that the tactics used on Mr. Ng were from another country.

This is the kind of thing you read about happening in Bosnia, Rhodesia or in Iraq during Sadam's reign. But here in the good old USA?

I'm not really all that surpized. Our basic freedoms have been under attack since 2000. Anyone ever hear of The Patriot Act? But this!
This is absolutely disgraceful behavior.

This country must get its humanity back, and fast.

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, August 13, 2008 11:36 AM

I am not at all surprised, this is just an extension of the same policies I mentioned recently in another thread, being applied to adults.

I ask you folk, so outraged over this incident, where that outrage has been for the twenty and more years we've been doing this and worse to kids who don't toe the line ?
http://www.caica.org/
http://www.isaccorp.org/

Fact is, this is shit we shouldn't do to ANYONE, but we do, and it rooks me that folks can see why it's so horrible when an adult is treated so, but do not see the relation between kids treated that way, and adults WILLING to treat other people that way.

Come on folks, the people fucked up enough to work for and operate shit like this come from somewhere don't they ?

It's a damn simple equation, innit ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

GEEZER

Wednesday, August 13, 2008 12:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
This ain't MOVEON or any of the other places NeoFuckingCons like to dis, this is the Fucking NEW YORK FUCKING TIMES, apologist asshats.

I thought you were serious about the issue 'til I saw this. Good one, Chris.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, August 13, 2008 12:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Come on folks, the people fucked up enough to work for and operate shit like this come from somewhere don't they ?

Physically and/or emotionally abused kids that survive can be cold to the fact that they're passing along a vile tradition....

Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, August 13, 2008 12:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

I thought you were serious about the issue 'til I saw this. Good one, Chris.

Atypically here, I am, so shut the fuck up if yer just here to be an asshole, K?

GEEZER

Wednesday, August 13, 2008 12:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

I thought you were serious about the issue 'til I saw this. Good one, Chris.

Atypically here, I am, so shut the fuck up if yer just here to be an asshole, K?

C'mon Chris, I'm just doing what you do so well when you don't agree with the topic.

Sincerestformofflatteryandall.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, August 13, 2008 1:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

C'mon Chris, I'm just doing what you do so well when you don't agree with the topic.

Do as I say, not as I do...

So, you don't agree that this kind of heinous shit shouldn't be done to human beings..? Not sure I'm taking your full meaning here...

Twitchy Chrisisall

HERO

Wednesday, August 13, 2008 1:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Why was he detained?

Every immigrant who pleads guilty or is found guilty of committing a crime in this country is advised that that his or her immigration status could be adversly affected as a result. Violent offenses are usually the ones that get attention.

In this case it appears that he was taken into custody because he committed a violent crime so that deportation proceedings could be initiated.

While I agree with the policy to deport violent criminal immigrants (after a fair hearing) and I agree he was rightfully taken into custody (prior to his fair hearing), I think a legal immigrant with strong community ties and a relatively good record should be elidgable for a bond.

I note for the record that illegal immigrants should NOT recieve a hearing (fair or otherwise) prior to deportation. In fact I am considering a Patent on my invention 'Hero's Immigrant Flinger'. Imagine a steam powered catapult with a chair/basket set right on the border...anyway it would allow us to arrange for the swift and safe exit of the United States for people who travel here illegally (while leaving it up to Mexico to ensure their safe landing).

On a related note, I had a guy from Afganistan, with felonies for criminal simulation and various fraud offenses who I was prosecuting for a protection order violation (for a Misdemeanor Domestic Violence). He lied to me, made a spectable of himself, vowed to flee Ohio for California if released on bond, and promissed to commit the offense again. I could not get ICE to return my calls. I suspect we could have Osama bin Ladden in custody for child molestation (cause we know he swings that way) and they'd not drive up this way to get him.

H

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, August 13, 2008 1:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

In this case it appears that he was taken into custody because he committed a violent crime so that deportation proceedings could be initiated.

Quote:
It was the rejection of his citizenship application, because of a 2002 misdemeanor conviction for domestic violence, that apparently prompted his arrest. The misdemeanor was the lone blot on his record, his sons said, and had been resolved to the court’s satisfaction with a year of anger management classes.

But immigration authorities considered it grounds for deportation. And instead of summoning him by letter to immigration court, where he could have fought to stay in the United States, immigration agents arrested him without warning and shipped him to detention in another state.

They subsequently fucking KILLED him. He wasn't skulking, he was attempting to work WITH the system- good lesson, eh?

isall

KWICKO

Wednesday, August 13, 2008 4:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Come on folks, the people fucked up enough to work for and operate shit like this come from somewhere don't they ?

Physically and/or emotionally abused kids that survive can be cold to the fact that they're passing along a vile tradition....

Chrisisall

And people wonder why I REFUSE to have children.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

KWICKO

Wednesday, August 13, 2008 4:46 PM

Quote:
I suspect we could have Osama bin Ladden in custody for child molestation (cause we know he swings that way)...

Osama Bin Laden is a Republican? I had no idea...

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

KWICKO

Wednesday, August 13, 2008 4:47 PM

Quote:
I'm just doing what you do so well when you don't agree with the topic.

Cites, please? Sorry, but I'm gonna have to see some proof here...

You mean flattery like that?

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shinygoodguy:
If it wasn't for the writer of this article describing the various detention centers he was taken to, I could have sworn that the tactics used on Mr. Ng were from another country.

Quote:
the Wyatt detention center’s director of nursing, Ben Candelaria, replied in a July 16 e-mail message that... “We treat each and every detainee in our custody with the same high level of quality, professional care possible.”

In April, Mr. Ng began complaining of excruciating back pain. By mid-July, he could no longer walk or stand.

On Aug. 1, Mr. Ng was taken to a hospital, where doctors found he had terminal cancer and a fractured spine. He died five days later.

Shitheads.

Chrisisall

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, August 13, 2008 7:41 PM

That big faker.

Sheesh. He's probably not really dead even.

Faker.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

GEEZER

Wednesday, August 13, 2008 7:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Do as I say, not as I do...

So, you don't agree that this kind of heinous shit shouldn't be done to human beings..?

Well, of course not.

Quote:

Not sure I'm taking your full meaning here...

Every time anything is not perfect (in Chrisisall's opinion of what's perfect) we get another "What kind of fu*king sh*t is this? Is this our America???" post suggesting that it's all gone to hell and there's no hope for our country any more.

In a country of 300 million, somebody, or some organization, or some agency, is gonna screw up. It's a statistical certainty. There's no way to stop it, no matter how well-intentioned everyone is, or how correct they try to be. The fact that different folks have different opinions of what "well-intentioned" or "correct" make mistakes even more certain. Response to these screwups is more telling as an indicator of the state of our national soul.

In this instance, we got press reports for a start, which is a good thing and doesn't happen in many countries. I expect investigations and either indictments or contractural punishments will follow. Again, good responses to inevitable problems, and the kind that don't happen in much of the world.

If you want to point out problems, that's fine. The over-the-top-sky-is-falling shtick just gets annoying.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

GEEZER

Wednesday, August 13, 2008 7:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Cites, please? Sorry, but I'm gonna have to see some proof here...

In the "John Edwards shares his penis with others." thread

WHOZIT - "John Edwards must have a great penis, so great it must be shared with the United States of America. Did his cancer stricken wife think it was hers and hers alone? NO! It belongs to the U.S.A.! Like tax $ this penis must spread around to tho's in need. The woman who may or may not have had his bastard love child was in need, what a great man and penis. By the way, the woman's family wants the man and his great penis to take that DNA test. A great penis belongs to everyone, ALL HAIL JOHN EDWARDS PENIS!"

CHRISISALL - "Shut up, Whozit."

In the "The Energy Journal refuses to publish pro-drilling report" thread.

AURAPTOR - "The Democratic leadership is LYING to the American public for one reason - to keep a grip on the balance of power they enjoy in Washington D.C., and for no other reason. It's not to " save the planet " as Kooky Speaker Nancy says, but to keep any possible positive bump the GOP would get once everyone saw how right their plan was for America."

CHRISISALL - "Nice try AU, but this formerly common misconception has been de-bunked again & again and is only used as anti-left propaganda by desperate types like yourself as a last ditch effort to take cred from whatever Dems that's possible- I'm so sick to gorram death of you world-hating pro-1984 chickenhawks spouting your brainwashed filth!!!! I mean, sick, Sick, SICK to DEATH!!! And STOP saying disparaging things about Obama, he's 20 times the man you could ever be, honest and unflinching, a true American hero!!! I'm so Mad right now that you ever even insinuated that he's less than our Earthly saviour I could SPIT!!!!

...not that I...spit...

There, how do you like it, AU ?A balls-out emotional over-reaction with no facts or links at all to back it up? Just calling you brainwashed & getting pissy over what I supposedly feel ain't got a lick of truth to it?

Take THAT, Captain Ridiculous!!"

Insults, personal attacks, massively off-topic rants. I could cite more quotes, but I think you could find them yourself. They're pretty plentiful.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

Every time anything is not perfect (in Chrisisall's opinion of what's perfect) we get another "What kind of fu*king sh*t is this? Is this our America???" post suggesting that it's all gone to hell and there's no hope for our country any more.

Uh, where in the title or the content of the thread do you see any "there's no hope"? If I point out something absolutely horrible that seems to me something my country MUST stop or MUST fix, or if I point out the un-Constitutionality of an action, or even over-react emotionally to an issue, where does that spell TOTAL DOOM???

In essence, who's over-reacting now, Geeze?

And BTW, shut up.

isall

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:30 PM

Faking it, ehe ?

More from the Sembler-Lichfield "They're all lying manipulators" playbook, that is, a bullshit excuse belief every bit as fictional as "Excited Delerium" and every bit as lethal.

==

As time went on, Bacon pleaded with his counselors that he needed a doctor, but they responded that he was "faking."

AARON WRIGHT BACON - Dead.

The other girls wanted to help her but a supervisor shouted at her "Quit faking! You're embarrassing us." When the other girls tried to give her shade they were ordered to back away.

GINA SCORE - Dead.

But a supervisor scolded Paisley to ''suck it up'' -- ignore the pain -- while a nurse declared, ''Ain't nothing wrong with his ass.''

OMAR PAISLEY - Dead.

Want more ?
http://www.caica.org/NEWS%20Deaths%20List%20of%20Names%20-names%20omit
ted.htm

Quote:
If it wasn't for the writer of this article describing the various detention centers he was taken to, I could have sworn that the tactics used on Mr. Ng were from another country.

Then I guess you're unfamiliar with the american juvenille "justice" system, cause this kind of thing is extremely commonplace.

Where the hell do you think they got their operational model FROM in the first fucking place ?

I know it's sounding a bit repetative here, but look, we tolerated it and looked the other way for twenty years and more when it was applied to non-adults, and suddenly we're shocked, surprised and outraged when it is applied to adults ?

Balderdash, I say!

I know as an Anarchist I don't put much stock in the legal system, but we really do need to either outlaw this kind of treatment, with harsh penalties.
Which would, alas likely fail, cause it would instantly sink the *immensely* profitable teen gulags.... not to mention the prison system.
http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/

Remember this is also coming from someone who has "retrieved" kids from either the hands of transport services or the facilities themselves, at the behest of other family members, and with swift violence in the offering should they fail to comply, and we'll leave it nice and ambiguious like that for liability reasons, I believe.

There's also the fact that I've seen inside these places outside of a nice, proper call ahead so they can get their shit in order "inspection", something Congressman Miller pulled off himself by hitting them after-hours.

Didn't you ever wonder where such extremely intimate and explicit knowledge of these places and their function comes from - did none of you ever connect it to the on-site pictures that have gotten these places into so much trouble ?

Trust me, I don't have to set foot inside these adult detention facilities to tell you every detail of what goes on in there, and I could probably even draw you the floorplan layout from memory - it's the same by-all-the-gods-damned model, down to the last hate-reeking detail, and if folks are finally gonna get good and pissed off about it and DO something....

Do me the fekkin favor of including them ALL, will you ?

I say we evacuate em and killdozer the places, one and all.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

HERO

Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I know as an Anarchist I don't put much stock in the legal system,

Thats fair. The legal system doesn't have much faith in Anarchy either.

H

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

I know as an Anarchist I don't put much stock in the legal system

I can see why...
http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/

Quote:
these three guys, who are accused of conspiring in the jailhouse rape of an 18-year-old high school student, are former deputies in the employ of the Grant County, Kentucky Sheriff's Department.

Geezer is deluded when he points this shit out "There's no way to stop it, no matter how well-intentioned everyone is, or how correct they try to be." as if these are anomalies...
This comes mainly from a Nazi-like model, cold, efficient and careless of life.
I've joked about telling peeps to shut up, but in Geezer's case here on this thread, I think he should put some thought to it.

Chrisisall

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:53 PM

Quote:
This comes mainly from a Nazi-like model, cold, efficient and careless of life.

Which comes from....
http://www.alice-miller.com/articles_en.php?lang=en&nid=47&grp=11
http://www.naturalchild.org/alice_miller/adolf_hitler.html

The same root - I am telling you, it's all right there for the looking, now that folk are willing to stand and face it.

As for how to put a crimp on it RIGHT NOW?

Simple - Don't Play Ball, Raise a Ruckus, get in the shit of policymakers, anything but allowing it to silently pass...

And while you're doing that, me and mine have been working years in ensuring that our future generations are not so fully poisoned as our own.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:01 PM

http://www.alice-miller.com/articles_en.php?lang=en&nid=47&grp=11

Quote:
Hitler's henchmen were victims of their upbringing. They belonged to a generation of children who had been exposed to brutal physical correction and humiliation and who later vented their pent-up feelings of anger and helpless rage on innocent victims. Safe in the knowledge that they were doing so with the Führer's blessing, they were finally able to give free rein to those feelings without risk of punishment.

Monsters aren't generally born, they're made, I agree. And a model to follow makes it all the more easy.

http://www.naturalchild.org/alice_miller/adolf_hitler.html

Quote:
The Führer once told his secretary that during one of the regular beatings given him by his father he was able to stop crying, to feel nothing, and even to count the thirty-two blows he received.

Fascinating.

isall

GEEZER

Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Uh, where in the title or the content of the thread do you see any "there's no hope"?

"So, we KILL by attrition, letting peeps die in detention?

FUCK this immigration policy. FUCK the peeps that think this is humane. This is just a small example of our war against humanity. Sorry, I mean, 'war against illegal immigration', or 'war against terror', or whatever.

I've seen the enemy, and it is us."

Sounds pretty hopeless to me.

Quote:
If I point out something absolutely horrible that seems to me something my country MUST stop or MUST fix, or if I point out the un-Constitutionality of an action, or even over-react emotionally to an issue, where does that spell TOTAL DOOM???

Sorry, Chris, but you don't 'point out' things. You scream at the top of your electronic lungs that each thing you see wrong is the ABSOLUTELY MOST IMPORTANT FUCKING SHIT EVER AND THAT IT PROVES THAT WE ARE ALL 'KILLERS BY ATTRITION' OR 'THE ENEMY' OR 'SUE-HAPPY' OR 'SHOOT-FIRST COWBOYS' or whatever has gotten stuck in your craw in the last 10 minutes. If anyone dares question that your horror de jure is less than earthshaking you insult, belittle, and demean them.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

GEEZER

Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
"these three guys, who are accused of conspiring in the jailhouse rape of an 18-year-old high school student, are former deputies in the employ of the Grant County, Kentucky Sheriff's Department."

Geezer is deluded when he points this shit out "There's no way to stop it, no matter how well-intentioned everyone is, or how correct they try to be." as if these are anomalies...
This comes mainly from a Nazi-like model, cold, efficient and careless of life.
I've joked about telling peeps to shut up, but in Geezer's case here on this thread, I think he should put some thought to it.

Way to take remarks out of context, Chris. Goebbels would be proud.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CHRISISALL

Thursday, August 14, 2008 12:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

Sounds pretty hopeless to me.

Sounds downright angry to me...but maybe that's just me.
Hey- it WAS just me....

Quote:

Sorry, Chris, but you don't 'point out' things. You scream at the top of your electronic lungs

SHUT UP, GEEZER!!!!

Quote:
If anyone dares question that your horror de jure is less than earthshaking you insult, belittle, and demean them.

It IS earthshaking- or it certainly WOULD be if you had any empathy for the VICTIMS of this fucking mindset!!!

And I don't demean anyone here, you simpleton!!!

I don't get the idea that if a 'few' peeps die a horrible death because of some 'mistakes' in the system, it's not as bad as if hundreds die in some cell in a foreign land...each individual human being is a world of ideas & feelings, and not one, save true enemies of humanity, should be written off as acceptable numerical losses under 'the system'.

In the words of Fi from Burn Notice, shall I shoot you now? I mean, you'd accept it as a tiny failure in the system to ensure your life & liberty, wouldn't ya? Your little hometown obit would be an acceptable thing to leave as your last contribution to this 'verse, eh?

Wanna push it some more and see the real me???

Wooly Chrisisall

KHYRON

Thursday, August 14, 2008 5:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
your horror de jure

Surely you meant du jour?

------------------------------

This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.

OUT2THEBLACK

Thursday, August 14, 2008 7:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
your horror de jure
Surely you meant du jour?

------------------------------

Yeah , I took him to mean that , too...

The 'horror de jure' is known hereabouts as 'Hero'...

Easy mistake to make though...The local horror de jure frequently doubles as the horror
du jour , also...

'Lie-yers' are like that , ya know ?

CHRISISALL

Thursday, August 14, 2008 7:13 PM

Wow....I totally scared Geezer off...

ChrisisfullO'gammarays

RUE

Thursday, August 14, 2008 8:29 PM

Chris, Is All

Remember, he is of the Tasers are COOL ! school; argued at length that the US never helped destablilize any socialist governments, nor did it prop up any juntas or dictators; supports torture; and believes that private enterprise medicine is just what we need, as he takes advantage of his free health-care for life US government plan.

I think he's double-talked for so long on so many things, he doesn't even know what reality is anymore. And the double-talk is now just a mindless reflex.

***************************************************************
Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice.

RUE

Thursday, August 14, 2008 8:35 PM

FremD

I'd like to remind you that social institutions are a reflection of their society's evils, not the cause.

I've been following the FLDS (google alerts) and there have been indictments handed down for child abuse (and one for bigamy), with more on the way. It wasn't the innocent simple folk just trying to be free v the big bad government. Those simple folk did heinous things to their children. All without the help of the big, bad government.

***************************************************************
Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, August 14, 2008 10:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
This ain't MOVEON or any of the other places NeoFuckingCons like to dis, this is the Fucking NEW YORK FUCKING TIMES, apologist asshats.

Which is justifiably dissable on its own, but if you have a problem with this kind of thing, you should realize that if we didn’t waste time pampering the illegal immigrants, who shouldn’t be here anyway, there would probably be the resources available to deal more correctly with the Mr. Nands.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

CHRISISALL

Thursday, August 14, 2008 11:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
if we didn’t waste time pampering the illegal immigrants, who shouldn’t be here anyway, there would probably be the resources available to deal more correctly with the Mr. Nands.

Shut up, Finn!

(Just joking, don't get yer panties in a bunch)

My take is that resources stretched thin or not, this would be an unacceptable way to treat dogs at the city pound, much less human beings. If you can't detain a non-dangerous criminal with reasonable safeguards regarding his or her life, then you just shouldn't arrest them in the first place...or maybe we could take half the stupid money we're paying BLACKWATER MERCS to beef up our need to eject non-citizens in a humane way, ya think?

The reasonable Chrisisall

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, August 15, 2008 12:54 AM

I been quiet on that one for a couple of reasons, not the least of which was not tipping the hand early - you may remember some comments about hard evidence freely given to us during the course of unfucking that mess ?

Remember, I wanted the bad actors too, and a good part of the community, once it became clear to them just how badly they'd been hung out to dry by folks misusing their beliefs against them, were quite willing to cooperate in the prosecution of those parties.

But our "price" was returning the children of those who had done no wrong, which in the end was met, even if they fought us tooth and claw the whole way.

Had they done it by the fuckin book in the first place, there woulda been no cause for that brawl to begin with, but they did not, until they were forced to with an ironclad case against the parties responsible for that used as a blackmail bludgeon.

Don't dare try to play off like the Gov was helping them, this was some folk misusing the machinery of Government to enforce a personal religious agenda, combined with an outright bullshit propaganda blitz trying to spark off the next best thing to a goddamn public lynching.

And you, miss - were cheerleading it all the way, up to and including using blatantly false info to fake probable cause for a warrant, and viciously attacking me every time I blew up the newest shovel load of bullshit.

So pardon me if my wishing for ONLY the bad actors to be prosecuted, by the book, got in the way of your desired public lynching.

I wanted em too, and we GOT em, and WITHOUT the wholesale destruction of that community and all it's families, something that would NOT have happened without the rabid intervention of a damn lot of people unwilling to stomach that level of "collateral damage".

You were the one perfectly willing to "destroy the village to save it" - and I ain't forgettin that, not ever.

As for social institutions reflecting societies evils, no shit sherlock, what the hell do you think I been saying ?

You can't run places like that without some pretty messed up people to operate them, and those folk then mess up more, some of which wind up operating the places themselves in turn, like a vicious little cycle.

And as for one way kids get mentally damaged like that, how bout the impact of being stripped away from your parents, forcibly "examined" in a way that would otherwise be called molestation, bounced around to "shake loose" your Guardian Ad Litem, and then treated like a criminal or prisoner and told everything you believe is wrong, immoral, evil....

Till some hardcase in a minivan shows up and takes you home to your parents.

Think those kids will ever be the same ?

With me, NOBODY gets a free pass on this shit, not the Gov, not Religion, not Individuals - every messed up kid is a timebomb waiting to go off.

We have GOT to not do it, it's just that simple, and intervening with a goddamn sledgehammer is no way to go about it - Andrew Vachss has gone into some really precise detail about how to fix that problem, as also has Doc Perry, but no one seems willing to freakin DO it.

The first step in that is seriously re-evaluating the position of children in our social and legal structures, cause at the moment they rank somewhere below pets and livestock, and that just ain't right.

-Frem
PS.
Now imagine being an ADULT, told you are a minor in spite of possessing a birth certificate and valid drivers license proving otherwise, and then subjected to that treatment - that particular girl is still even now really messed up over that one.

RUE

Friday, August 15, 2008 1:12 AM

Seriously Frem

You've got so much self-justifying BS going on it's hard to know where to begin.

The argument - that the religious leaders were actively promoting underage marriage to a flock of believers who would have followed their every whim (and there are many who still would btw, see authoritarians leaders, authoritarians believers) - poisons the whole community. Maybe there are a few who would have stood up, who might have shielded their children if the Eye of Sauron (Jeffs and cohorts) fell on them - but by the evidence they are few, and far between. For the most part the ones Jeffs favored, whether they were adult males looking for a young thing, or young girls looking to be special, were happy to go along b/c it meant they were blessed. As for the others, being overlooked may have kept them out of direct harms way but they were made the beggars of that society. Even the men who were banned from the community, who had their wives and children taken from them, felt it was a trial they had to go through. And the women - apparently have no say at all. And the children were just captive pawns between the predators and the parents.

Girls report being routinely physically manhandled in school by Jeffs and others. Boys were physically humiliated. Underage girls were 'given' in marriage without their consent. Boys were turned out into the desert. AND NO ONE STOOD UP TO SAY IT WAS WRONG. That's why the entire community was poisoned - and a threat to the children.

And, out of curiosity, as pervasive as this was, do YOU think this was benign for the children ? Was NONE of this harmful ? Just for the record.

***************************************************************
Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Friday, August 15, 2008 4:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
My take is that resources stretched thin or not, this would be an unacceptable way to treat dogs at the city pound, much less human beings. If you can't detain a non-dangerous criminal with reasonable safeguards regarding his or her life, then you just shouldn't arrest them in the first place...or maybe we could take half the stupid money we're paying BLACKWATER MERCS to beef up our need to eject non-citizens in a humane way, ya think?

No. I don’t think robbing defense to pay for a problem we could fix by just not pampering illegal is reasonable. We should have a clear distinction between illegal and legal immigrants, which we don’t. Legal immigrants should be granted all the privileges of their status as legal immigrants and illegal immigrants should be treated like they don’t belong here, because they don’t. Unfortunately, too many people muddy the water with open border political agendas and it creates chaos, and the big losers in all of this has always been the legal immigrants - the people the open-border camp claim they support.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

SERGEANTX

Friday, August 15, 2008 11:39 AM

Heard this handy bit of propaganda on NPR yesterday:

http://www.npr.org/templates/player/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&isli
st=false&id=93597384&m=93597380

I felt sick to my stomach for the rest of the day. It's a casual and forthright discussion of why we have to let our authorities lie, cheat and steal (as in stealing/destroying people's lives) to keep us 'safe'. It's pretty much the same argument that the torture fans keep repeating. And it falls apart with the same conceit. We've forgotten all about innocent until proven guilty. They try to scare us into accepting their authoritarian fantasies.

Listen to the language these fuckers use. "It's not a perfect world", "the suspect's suicide was a 'personal choice'", "the ends justifies the means". They want us to believe that evil is the only way to keep us safe. They want us to accept this shit as the new status quo.

I'm watching my nation change under my feet and it's killing me. We are under a barrage of propaganda driving us into fascism. Look at our entertainment. We subject ourselves to hour after hour of fear, murder, rape, terror. We watch the 'police procedurals' where they manipulate our emotions to the point that we're cheering for torture, and for the notion that merely being accused of a crime warrants abusive treatment.

We just can't seem to shake the insidious appeal of the fascist mentality. And that's what it is. It looks different than the Nazis. It'll look different than Stalin. But it's the same panic-driven acceptance of that which we know to be wrong.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, August 15, 2008 12:05 PM

I hardly think being proven almost absolutely correct on every point qualifies as self-justifying BS.

And you, and your precious, beloved State, have yet to show that the behavior in question was as prevalent as you claim, or a matter of policy, rather than a handful of individuals exploiting a religions tenets for personal gain.

Just cause you want to believe something, does not make it true with no evidence to support it.

You seem to have trouble wrapping your mind around the simple fact that I wanted the bad actors locked up every bit as much as you did, but not at the expense of innocents.

The ends do NOT justify the means, not before, not during, and not after.

Frankly I find your hypocrisy on this matter disturbing, cause if it's not ok to cause harm to innocents in the course of fighting terrorism, then it is no more ok to do so in the course of prosecuting predators.

It ain't ok with me, ain't ever gonna be, neither.
And on that point, I'll not be moved.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

GEEZER

Friday, August 15, 2008 12:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
Surely you meant du jour?

Sure did. Guess the Universal Translator needs a new infusion of AAAs. Darn technology anyway.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

GEEZER

Friday, August 15, 2008 12:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Wow....I totally scared Geezer off...

Don't bet on it.

Even now, plans are afoot...

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CHRISISALL

Friday, August 15, 2008 1:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:

Listen to the language these fuckers use. "It's not a perfect world", "the suspect's suicide was a 'personal choice'", "the ends justifies the means". They want us to believe that evil is the only way to keep us safe. They want us to accept this shit as the new status quo.

And the STUPID FUCKING ASSHOLES swallow this shit because they're too stupid and/or scared to see it for the Constitution-ignoring power grab that it is.

Look at this nonsense:
GEEZER- somebody, or some organization, or some agency, is gonna screw up. It's a statistical certainty. There's no way to stop it, no matter how well-intentioned everyone is, or how correct they try to be.

FINN- you should realize that if we didn’t waste time pampering the illegal immigrants

They've ignored the hook & the line and gone right to sinker.

This is how good people are tricked into accepting evil.

isall

GEEZER

Friday, August 15, 2008 1:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
It's a casual and forthright discussion of why we have to let our authorities lie, cheat and steal (as in stealing/destroying people's lives) to keep us 'safe'. It's pretty much the same argument that the torture fans keep repeating. And it falls apart with the same conceit. We've forgotten all about innocent until proven guilty. They try to scare us into accepting their authoritarian fantasies.

Been reading recently about the Wilson Administration's trampling of civil liberties during WWI. Censorship of anything not rabidly pro-war. The Sedition Act, banning "uttering, printing, writing, or publishing any disloyal, profane, scurrilous, about the United States government of the military." (your statements in this post, Sarge, would have landed you in jail. Over 175,000 citizens were jailed during the war years.). The first modern proaganda ministry, the Committee on Public Information, which had an army of 100,000 "Four Minute Men" who made short speeches at almost any type of public gathering - praising Wilson and 'exposing' German war crimes. The American Protective League, a quasi-offical arm of the Justice Department with a membership of 250,000 who were charged with making sure their neighbors, co-workers, etc. didn't act less than "100% American", by reading their mail and listening in on phone conversations. They also acted as 'bonebreakers', foreshadowing Italy's Blackshirts and Germany's Brownshirts.

Quote:
I'm watching my nation change under my feet and it's killing me. We are under a barrage of propaganda driving us into fascism. ...
We just can't seem to shake the insidious appeal of the fascist mentality. And that's what it is. It looks different than the Nazis. It'll look different than Stalin. But it's the same panic-driven acceptance of that which we know to be wrong.

We've dabbled with fascism before, usually in the guise of Progressivism. In the early 20th century quite a number of American Progressives and Liberals, including Wilson and Roosevelt, considered Mussolini's Italy a model of enlightened government.

Actually, the current Conservative leanings toward fascism are pretty weak compared to those we experienced under Wilson and Roosevelt. During WWI people who refused to sing the Star-Spangled Banner at public events were shot or beaten to death while the crowds cheered. Of course, no one was ever indicted for these crimes.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

SIGNYM

Friday, August 15, 2008 1:30 PM

Quote:
Think those kids will ever be the same ?

With me, NOBODY gets a free pass on this shit, not the Gov, not Religion, not Individuals - every messed up kid is a timebomb waiting to go off.

The "messing up" began with parents... even loving parents... who wanted to created a little world and force their children to stay in it by lying to them about the outside world. The parents did their children a huge disservice. In this case, I think the parents treated their children "like property", even those that DIDN'T abuse them, or hand them off for abuse, because they took away their children's knowledge and options. But maybe that's just me.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

SIGNYM

Friday, August 15, 2008 1:33 PM

Quote:
We've dabbled with fascism before, usually in the guise of Progressivism. In the early 20th century quite a number of American Progressives and Liberals, including Wilson and Roosevelt, considered Mussolini's Italy a model of enlightened government.

Actually, the current Conservative leanings toward fascism are pretty weak compared to those we experienced under Wilson and Roosevelt. During WWI people who refused to sing the Star-Spangled Banner at public events were shot or beaten to death while the crowds cheered. Of course, no one was ever indicted for these crimes.

But does that make it right? Should we NOT be horrified by sliding into fascism? And if we're NOT horrified, what stops that slide?

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

CHRISISALL

Friday, August 15, 2008 1:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

Been reading recently about the Wilson Administration's trampling of civil liberties during WWI. Censorship of anything not rabidly pro-war. The Sedition Act, banning "uttering, printing, writing, or publishing any disloyal, profane, scurrilous, about the United States government of the military." (your statements in this post, Sarge, would have landed you in jail. Over 175,000 citizens were jailed during the war years.)

Okay Geezer, good point of reference, still, I would expect in this day and age that NO part of that neanderthal thinking would remain...

I'mafoolisall

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, August 15, 2008 2:52 PM

Siggy, I take your point - but given what the "outside world" just did to them...

Are those really lies ?

Yeah, I know it's more complicated than that, I just wanted to point out that this did more to reinforce those messed up beliefs than anything else could have - hell, another oddball and reclusive group during that whole mess bought a piece of (ahem) "Tracked Farm Equipment" that gives me the freakin willies.

People teach kids all kinds of ridiculous things, some stick, some don't - and a good example goes a long way in untangling that mess, remember, some of the "outside world" came to their aid as well.

Remember, I was born into an explicitly racist family, at the time - and simply chose in the end NOT to be, cause I thought then, and still do, that it was plainly ridiculous.

Our examples give them choices - we should offer good ones, yanno ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, August 15, 2008 2:56 PM

Geeze, I commend you on your historical research there.

I do feel the need to point out here, in additon, that those pesky Unionists, Socialists, and Anarchists were the ones speaking out against this kind of thing - and the crushing blows delivered by the administration (see also: Palmer Raids) while the greater populace cheered it all on are something we've not recovered from even today.

It also crippled Unions pretty bad, leading indirectly to the imbalance of power and Corporate power issues we have today as well.

There have ALWAYS been folks in our Gov, from it's very inception, pushing for a Feudal-Fascist structure, and it's never been limited to one party, neither.

Would that more folks were aware of this history when that damned Patriot Act hit the table - things might not have gone that way.

See Also: Signature Line.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

GEEZER

Friday, August 15, 2008 3:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
But does that make it right? Should we NOT be horrified by sliding into fascism? And if we're NOT horrified, what stops that slide?

Doesn't make it right, but doesn't signal the end of the world, or even America, either. Look at history and be aware, or cautious, or skeptical, sure.

Somehow, I'm as concerned about the people who are HORRIFIED by possible fascist leanings as I am about the proto-fascists themselves. People who are HORRIFIED act rashly and without consideration of consequences. They could easily end up merely changing one flavor of fascism for another, worse, one.

Also consider that some fascist concepts may have less than horrible results. Kennedy's "Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country." speech and Johnson's Great Society would have fit right in with the ideas of Italian fascisti of the '20s and '30s.

.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CHRISISALL

Friday, August 15, 2008 3:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Kennedy's "Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country."

Whenever I hear that, I remember this really messed up Vietnam Vet I knew in the seventies....

Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Friday, August 15, 2008 4:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

History: classes in secondary and post secondary education wherein the bored teacher makes you read books that tell of Christopher Columbus' joyous discovery of America, the evil surprise attack on Pearl Harbour, and the big giant dominoes that almost fell in Asia.

If my Driver's Ed class went into similar enlightening detail, I never would have touched a steering wheel.

Chrisisall

RUE

Friday, August 15, 2008 5:12 PM

Frem

I asked one simple question: "And, out of curiosity, as pervasive as this was, do YOU think this was benign for the children ? Was NONE of this harmful ? Just for the record."

Quote:
I hardly think being proven almost absolutely correct on every point qualifies as self-justifying BS.

And you, and your precious, beloved State, have yet to show that the behavior in question was as prevalent as you claim, or a matter of policy, rather than a handful of individuals exploiting a religions tenets for personal gain.
Just cause you want to believe something, does not make it true with no evidence to support it.
You seem to have trouble wrapping your mind around the simple fact that I wanted the bad actors locked up every bit as much as you did, but not at the expense of innocents.
The ends do NOT justify the means, not before, not during, and not after.
Frankly I find your hypocrisy on this matter disturbing, cause if it's not ok to cause harm to innocents in the course of fighting terrorism, then it is no more ok to do so in the course of prosecuting predators.
It ain't ok with me, ain't ever gonna be, neither.
And on that point, I'll not be moved.

Is this a yes or a no ? Or an evasion ?

***************************************************************
Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice.

KWICKO

Friday, August 15, 2008 6:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

History: classes in secondary and post secondary education wherein the bored teacher makes you read books that tell of Christopher Columbus' joyous discovery of America, the evil surprise attack on Pearl Harbour, and the big giant dominoes that almost fell in Asia.

If my Driver's Ed class went into similar enlightening detail, I never would have touched a steering wheel.

Chrisisall

The history classes you got in primary education are a joke; the most simplistic of reasons wrapped around a few dates you're supposed to remember for a test, and that's all. When you get to college-level history courses is when your eyes REALLY get opened.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

SERGEANTX

Friday, August 15, 2008 6:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
We've dabbled with fascism before, usually in the guise of Progressivism. In the early 20th century quite a number of American Progressives and Liberals, including Wilson and Roosevelt, considered Mussolini's Italy a model of enlightened government...

Doesn't make it right, but doesn't signal the end of the world, or even America, either...

But just what does it signify, Geezer?

I knew someone here (hoped it wouldn't be you) would trot out all the abuses of the past as justification for out current zeitgeist. But there is a profound difference and THAT's what I've noticed. What was once our shame, our dirty little secret that could only be accepted through the gauze of decades of history, has become our unabashed embrace of evil.

Did you listen to the NPR piece? Nothing they talked about was particularly shocking. Anyone but the most gullible would have to assume such abuses have gone on for a long time. It's not that this crap is new or astonishing that has me freaked out. It was the tone of the program itself that bothered me so much, the casual acceptance of the 'unfortunate consequences'. We're not even really trying to pretend we're the good guys anymore.

I think that you can tell more about a people by the willing delusions they maintain than by the gritty details. Our delusion used to be that we maintained a higher standard - that, while we might make mistakes, we aspired to virtue above and beyond what was necessary to survive. Sure, the more cynical of us always knew that bad things happened, but our nation's self-image aspired to something better. THAT's what we've lost.

To put it another way, we used to think we were the good guys because we held to higher standards of human dignity. Now we're telling ourselves that such standards aren't really necessary - because we're the good guys.

Quote:
People who are HORRIFIED act rashly and without consideration of consequences. They could easily end up merely changing one flavor of fascism for another, worse, one.

And that's exactly what I'm telling I see happening.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

CANTTAKESKY

Friday, August 15, 2008 7:04 PM

You guys ever see Children of Men?

--------------------------
Dr. Horrible Karaoke

CHRISISALL

Friday, August 15, 2008 7:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

The history classes you got in primary education are a joke

Do not make fun of my History teacher Mr. Disclafonte, he tried his best not to fall asleep behind his newspaper in class!!!

Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Friday, August 15, 2008 7:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
You guys ever see Children of Men?

Good, if slightly scientifically out there, flick.

Young Chrisisall

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, August 15, 2008 7:23 PM

I do believe such behavior is harmful to children, at least in my opinion...

Of course, the American Psychological Association supported a paper saying it's NOT really harmful to them, which provoked Congress to actually issue a specific statement denouncing it.

Think I am kidding ?
http://www.leadershipcouncil.org/1/rind/cont.html

Regardless, *I* do think such behavior is harmful, but you have yet to show it was as "prevalent" as you claim it to be.

And you don't use a wholesale, utterly traumatic sledgehammer type intervention on an entire community to resolve the problem any more than you amputate a limb because of a scratch or scrape.

Why don't you shove your strawmen where the sun don't shine, take your fingers out of your ears, and your ideological blinders off and actually listen to what the hell I tell you instead of ignoring it and making shit up besides, for once ?

Can the fuckin sophistry, too, cause I've been pretty polite about it so far, but to be downright blunt you do not give a rats ass about those kids and never did save as an excuse to level harm at folk for the crime of thinking and believing differently than you would wish.

I wanted those bad actors removed from the community and stuck in the slam where they belong before this incident ever happened, which is even now getting done, but you on the other hand, seem to have wanted the community itself destroyed because they don't believe or practice the way YOU want them to.

This makes you no different in my eyes than Rightwingnuts or Islamic Fanatics, just another Xenophobe who wants anything "different" destroyed.

You wanna discuss the issues, then burn your strawmen and do it for once - but if you just wanna play Sophistry games...

Then go play with yourself, in both meanings of the phrase.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

GEEZER

Friday, August 15, 2008 8:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I knew someone here (hoped it wouldn't be you) would trot out all the abuses of the past as justification for out current zeitgeist.

Whoa up there, buddy. Where did you get the idea I was 'justifying' anything? I was pointing out that we've had fascist-leaning governments before, not saying they were great.

Quote:
But there is a profound difference and THAT's what I've noticed. What was once our shame, our dirty little secret that could only be accepted through the gauze of decades of history, has become our unabashed embrace of evil.

People of the time LOVED the fascist policies of Wilson and Roosevelt. No one was ashamed of them. It was no secret. What happened is that decades of revisionist history have covered up the excesses, the 'evil' if you will, that the people embraced.

Quote:
Did you listen to the NPR piece?

Haven't had a spare 30 minutes yet. I'll get around to it when I can.

Quote:
Nothing they talked about was particularly shocking. Anyone but the most gullible would have to assume such abuses have gone on for a long time. It's not that this crap is new or astonishing that has me freaked out. It was the tone of the program itself that bothered me so much, the casual acceptance of the 'unfortunate consequences'. We're not even really trying to pretend we're the good guys anymore.

"I want to assure you that we are not afraid of exploring anything within the law, and we have a lawyer who will declare anything you want to do legal"

Bush/Cheney? Nope. Harry Hopkins, FDR aide and one of the architects of the New Deal.

"When I hear a man advising the American people to state the terms of peace, I know he is working for (the enemy). Any man who refuses to back the President in this crisis is worse than a traitor."

Rush Limbaugh? No. Clarence Darrow, defending Wilson's war measures.

Again, none of this stuff is new, and it's generally not as bad as past flirtations with fascism.

Quote:
To put it another way, we used to think we were the good guys because we held to higher standards of human dignity. Now we're telling ourselves that such standards aren't really necessary - because we're the good guys.

Here comes that "WE" stuff again. Different people have different opinions, standards, and ideas of right and wrong. Just because some people have worse standards than you (or I) think are good, doesn't mean we're all condemned to share those standards.

I also note that the country as a whole does have higher standards of human dignity and individual rights than at any time in the past. This doesn't mean we're perfect, but any objective reading of U.S. history will show we're getting better rather than worse.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CHRISISALL

Friday, August 15, 2008 8:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

I also note that the country as a whole does have higher standards of human dignity and individual rights than at any time in the past. This doesn't mean we're perfect, but any objective reading of U.S. history will show we're getting better rather than worse.

Out of sheer inability to fight the numbers or the facts, I must agree with you, though it pains me greatly not to be able to point out how we're swirling the drain for the very last time...oh wait- it doesn't pain me...I guess it's that fantasy America-hater me that keeps getting mentioned by some.

Okay, America's been through tougher times, yes. But I'm STILL gonna yell at a backslide.
And I STILL agree with Frem that we're working with dangerously corruptible social/correctional models that need massive overhauling.

Zero-killing tolerance Chrisisall

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Friday, August 15, 2008 10:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
FINN- you should realize that if we didn’t waste time pampering the illegal immigrants

They've ignored the hook & the line and gone right to sinker.

This is how good people are tricked into accepting evil.

And then there’s you. Who uses a man’s death to push your own single-minded agenda. Let’s be honest, you really couldn’t care less whether this man died or not. He’s just a convenient excuse for your anti-establishment rhetoric. You try to paint me as evil simply becuase I don't see things your way, but how are you not endorsing evil?

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

CHRISISALL

Friday, August 15, 2008 11:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
And then there’s you. Who uses a man’s death to push your own single-minded agenda. Let’s be honest, you really couldn’t care less whether this man died or not. He’s just a convenient excuse for your anti-establishment rhetoric.

EHHHHNH, wrong answer Hans, you wanna go to Double Jeopardy where the stakes can really increase?

Quote:
You try to paint me as evil simply becuase I don't see things your way, but how are you not endorsing evil?

I said you accept evil, better see to those reading comprehension skills, my good man.

I 'not endorse evil' by not letting it happen without notice or comment, and I don't vote for jackasses like Bush & Cheney that have 'Go Operative!' posters in their studies.

Master Po once said, "Sometimes one must cut off a finger to save a hand...", But Bush would hear it as "Sometimes one must cut off a hand to control a body...".

I DO fucking care that this man died, as I care when thousands die in an adventurist military action- the NUMBER is not important- trading lives for some perceived economic security IS NOT the way of honourable men.

Feisty Chrisisall

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Friday, August 15, 2008 11:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I said you accept evil, better see to those reading comprehension skills, my good man.

I say you are no better. And you couldn’t care less about this man’s death. It’s just a convenient excuse for you to rail against Bush and your usual political diatribes. You don’t give a damn about anyone’s opinion but your own - you don’t even know what my opinion is on the topic, only that it differs from yours and that’s enough for you to call it evil. So your opinion is evil.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

GEEZER

Friday, August 15, 2008 11:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Out of sheer inability to fight the numbers or the facts, I must agree with you, though it pains me greatly not to be able to point out how we're swirling the drain for the very last time.

So we have more individual dignity and rights than at any time before in the history of the U.S. and that's causing us to 'swirl the drain for the very last time'?

America got through Wilson jailing 175,000 Americans for 'sedition' such as opposing the draft, and Roosevelt sending 400,000 Americans to camps because their ancestors happened to come from Japan - but the comparatively light, if still not proper, actions of the current government are gonna end it all? Excuse me for being optimistic that 'this too shall pass', based on the worse stuff that's gone down and been gotten over in the past.

Quote:
Okay, America's been through tougher times, yes. But I'm STILL gonna yell at a backslide.

My point isn't 'tougher times' but that we've been through much more repressive governments, many within the last century. Compared to what's gone before, this backslide, while not good, is just a bobble. Criticize all you like, but don't exaggerate. It's not the worst thing that could, or has, happened. Deal with it as a problem, not the apocalypse.

Quote:
And I STILL agree with Frem that we're working with dangerously corruptible social/correctional models that need massive overhauling.

Somehow I suspect that your concept of how that 'massive overhauling' shoud take place is about 180 degrees from Fremd's.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

SERGEANTX

Saturday, August 16, 2008 12:22 AM

Geezer, I'm telling you that I see a difference. There is a cynicism and a acceptance of authoritarian abuses that is fundamentally different than anything I've seen in my lifetime. The press is weaker and more content as a conduit for propaganda than I've ever seen.

My experience begins at the end of the Vietnam War, so I'll admit a limited perspective on the American experience. But I see a resignation to the 'necessity of evil' that is a profound shift in our nation's self-image.

I have to ask, why is it so important to counter dissent with the "nothing-to-see-here" pronouncements? We're asking for people to wake up and demand moral accountability from our leadership. You obviously see this as somehow damaging to our nation and I'm wondering why. I see a hell of lot more damage done by the blind acceptance promoted by opportunistic 'patriots'.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

CHRISISALL

Saturday, August 16, 2008 1:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I say you are no better. And you couldn’t care less about this man’s death. It’s just a convenient excuse for you to rail against Bush and your usual political diatribes.

So, I don't know you but you can know me...where is that emoticon...never use it much...ah! Here it is:

(crap, it's not smiling; no wonder I don't use it much)

Quote:
You don’t give a damn about anyone’s opinion but your own

Ooooo, touchy, what is it Finn, too close to the truth of it here?

Quote:
- you don’t even know what my opinion is on the topic, only that it differs from yours and that’s enough for you to call it evil.

Okay, that reading comprehension thing again- accepting that evil is somehow necessary ain't necessarily evil in itself, it can be mere disagreement concerning the importance of human life....

Quote:
So your opinion is evil.

It...it doesn't MEAN to be...give it another chance...

Chrisisallsnarky

CHRISISALL

Saturday, August 16, 2008 1:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

So we have more individual dignity and rights than at any time before in the history of the U.S. and that's causing us to 'swirl the drain for the very last time'?

You and Finn need the same class- that was a sarcastic direction to the fact that that's NOT what I believe.
But whatever.

Quote:

Compared to what's gone before, this backslide, while not good, is just a bobble.

We're too close to agreement on this for me to go all wonky here, even though I'd like to- I just think you're takin' these days a tad too lightly is all.

(!)Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Saturday, August 16, 2008 1:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:

My experience begins at the end of the Vietnam War, so I'll admit a limited perspective on the American experience. But I see a resignation to the 'necessity of evil' that is a profound shift in our nation's self-image.

I have precisely the same experience & see it pretty much the same way, Sarge. I don't even see how one can refute this view, unless one was consumed with hatred of the left in days past, and ready to see any shift to the right a good thing no matter the cost in human rights...

isall

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, August 16, 2008 6:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
It...it doesn't MEAN to be...give it another chance...

Why? Why should I? You obviously haven’t given my opinion the first chance. You assume that because it doesn’t immediately agree with you, that it’s evil. And quite frankly, in practice that kind of narrow mindedness has been the impetus of true evil much of the time. Why should I give your opinion a chance?

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

GEEZER

Saturday, August 16, 2008 12:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I have to ask, why is it so important to counter dissent with the "nothing-to-see-here" pronouncements? We're asking for people to wake up and demand moral accountability from our leadership. You obviously see this as somehow damaging to our nation and I'm wondering why. I see a hell of lot more damage done by the blind acceptance promoted by opportunistic 'patriots'.

Again with the words in my mouth. Patooie! Patooie!

I've stated above that you should be concerned and suspicious - hardly 'nothing to see here'. But my main point is that we've overcome worse, and more repressive, fascist governments within the US, and done so using the mechanisms of government, i.e. we voted the bastards out. The ballot box is where we 'demand moral accountability' from our leadership. I'm all for that.

My concern is that passionate people who don't realize we can fix (and have fixed) the system from within will, with the best intentions in the world, land us in a situation where many folks believe it's prefectly all right to support those good intentions with extra-legal means. Note that the fascisti in Italy began as a group which took to the streets to bust some heads because the government wasn't working fast enough for them. Probably a lot of them had good intentions, but they broke down the checks and balances which make government work, if sometimes slowly and in fits and starts.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

GEEZER

Saturday, August 16, 2008 12:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
You and Finn need the same class- that was a sarcastic direction to the fact that that's NOT what I believe.
But whatever.

Sarcasm doesn't travel well on-line. Hence emoticons.

But anyway. Name me a sixteen year period (two presidential administrations, say) in which you believe that citizens of the US have had, overall, more individual dignity and rights than currently.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CHRISISALL

Saturday, August 16, 2008 2:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

Name me a sixteen year period (two presidential administrations, say) in which you believe that citizens of the US have had, overall, more individual dignity and rights than currently.

Well, I guess you could just go with the 16 years prior to the Bush Administration...

(do I sense a trap here?

)

Chrisisallsetup

CHRISISALL

Saturday, August 16, 2008 2:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
You assume that because it doesn’t immediately agree with you, that it’s evil.

Yes, it's evil, Finn.
It's in Congress.

With the Beastisall

RUE

Saturday, August 16, 2008 8:04 PM

Frem

"I do believe such behavior is harmful to children, at least in my opinion..."

OMG ! We AGREE on something ! I'll enjoy every little morsel of that no matter how insignificant.

The problem with the FLDS is that it wasn't just some isolated lone nutcase with a yen for young compliant girls ("stay sweet"). It was the sole community leader - called god's voice on earth - who set the rules of behavior for the entire group - and who acted through his well-rewarded henchmen and community supporters, and all of whom kept his peculiar and perverse system running.

Saying it was just a few isolated abusers is like saying the Third Reich was merely a handful of insane zealots.

Ignoring that the Nazi zealots were multiplied through their positions of power, ability to make the rules, and significant popular support - and so, the Third Reich embraced the entire country. Or, Jeff's system of abuse embraced the entire FLDS community in this case.

Personally, as I have said many times, I really don't care one way or the other about polygamy (except when they use tax money to support their many families, but that's another story). As long as they're adults making a free choice it's all shiny. Nor do I care about whether or not people are religious, or whether or not their religion agrees with my lack of one.

And the FLDS may even have started out as idealistic. But all that went away when Jeff's father got rid of the council of elders and made himself the sole authority of the group, and then passed the mantle to Jeffs, whose intentions were quite venal.

BTW, I don't appreciate being threatened no matter how obliquely. And I've not been responding to YOUR misstating what I've been saying b/c I didn't want to get into an endless tit for tat. But I could, at length.

Wanna go there ? Just let me know.

***************************************************************
Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice.

GEEZER

Saturday, August 16, 2008 8:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Well, I guess you could just go with the 16 years prior to the Bush Administration...

So. 1984 - 2000. Second Reagan term, Bush I, and two Clinton terms.

Unless you'd like specifics, I'll take it as read that you'd consider the Reagan and Bush I terms not particularly bastions of individual dignity and freedom. So let's jump right to the Clinton administration.

Well, we got Waco, where 76 people, including 21 children, died in a fire after a 51 day siege by ATF and the FBI. If so many people hadn't died, the whole conduct of the event by the government would be considered a comedy of errors.

Compare and contrast with the recent FLDS case, where public outrage over the seizure of hundreds of children embarrassed the State of Texas into massive backpedaling.

Nor can we forget Ruby Ridge, where an FBI sniper killed a dangerous unarmed woman holding a baby.

Then we got the "Defense of Marriage Act", passed by a Republican congress and signed into law by Pres. Clinton, which codified the denial of any Federal benefits to partners in a same-sex relationship. Although this law is still on the books, several states have stepped up by providing such benefits at the state level, and legalizing same-sex marriage or civil unions.

Until the 1996 (that's the first 3/4 of the time period) SCOTUS decision in Romer vs. Evans, it was fine for states to deny protection from discrimination to gays and lesbians.
State sodomy laws, pretty obviously aimed at gays, weren't declared unconstitutional until 2003. (Lawrence vs. Texas)

Dipping back into Reagan/Bush...

In 1989 the U.S. Supreme Court, in Webster v. Reproductive Health Services, upheld a Missouri statute that said that human life began at conception, barred the use of public funds for abortion, prohibited abortions at public health facilities and required physicians to test for fetal viability after the 19th week of pregnancy.

In Hodgson v. Minnesota (1990), the U.S. Supreme Court in a 5-4 decision ruled that states may require that pregnant teenage girls either notify both biological parents before having an abortion or seek a judicial authorization through "judicial bypass."

1991 - The U.S. Supreme Court in Rust v. Sullivan upholds a "gag rule," barring clinics from counseling women on abortion, even if the continued pregnancy threatened a woman's life or health.

More later. gotta start supper.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

KHYRON

Saturday, August 16, 2008 9:39 PM

But Geezer, the assignment was: "Name me a sixteen year period (two presidential administrations, say) in which you believe that citizens of the US have had, overall, more individual dignity and rights than currently."

What you seem to be arguing is that things weren't perfect before Bush 43 either, which I'm sure Chris would fully agree with. You need to prove that citizens of the US had, overall, less individual dignity and fewer rights from 1984 to 2000 than they do currently, and I'm sure one could make the argument that the Patriot Act alone negates any advances in terms of rights and individual dignity that were made since 2000. And that would ignore all the other compromises on civil liberties that've been made in the name of the "war on terror".

Also, of the things you've listed from the Clinton years, the only thing that seems to have had an effect on the general population were the anti-gay regulations, and while it's great that some states now allow gay marriage, does this signify an overall increase in individual dignity? It doesn't really affect the majority of the population.

Finally, have the 1989, 1990 and 1991 cases you mentioned been overturned? (Serious question, not trying to be snarky)

------------------------------

This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.

CHRISISALL

Saturday, August 16, 2008 10:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
I'll take it as read that you'd consider the Reagan and Bush I terms not particularly bastions of individual dignity and freedom.

Know what happens when we assume?

They actually weren't that bad, domestically...
The Reagan Admin was extraordinarily ruthless in Central America though.
And Waco was Clinton's Katrina, IMO.

Burningtiresisall

CHRISISALL

Saturday, August 16, 2008 10:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:

What you seem to be arguing is that things weren't perfect before Bush 43 either, which I'm sure Chris would fully agree with.

You got it in one, Khy.

Defusing Chrisisall

GEEZER

Saturday, August 16, 2008 11:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
I'm sure one could make the argument that the Patriot Act alone negates any advances in terms of rights and individual dignity that were made since 2000.

You could. Go ahead and do so. List the individual freedoms you, or anyone else, have lost.

Quote:
Also, of the things you've listed from the Clinton years, the only thing that seems to have had an effect on the general population were the anti-gay regulations, and while it's great that some states now allow gay marriage, does this signify an overall increase in individual dignity? It doesn't really affect the majority of the population.

Okay. So as long as we're just discriminating against the gays or slaughtering the fringe populations it's not important to overall individual rights and dignity? That sort'a refutes your Patriot Act argument, since it's not going to have much affect on many people. Certainly less freedom than was lost to the anti-gay laws, and less lives than at Waco and Ruby Ridge.

If you take rights from an entire class of people just because of who they are, and not due to any wrong they've committed, you take rights from everyone.

Quote:
Finally, have the 1989, 1990 and 1991 cases you mentioned been overturned? (Serious question, not trying to be snarky)

Haven't checked yet. Had to grill chicken. I'll get back to it.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, August 17, 2008 5:25 AM

Pffth, I hardly think me being less polite is really the kinda threat anyone would ever find apalling, to be honest there...

That bein said -

Jeffs is scum, absolutely, undeniably, and pure poison to that community and their beliefs, I wanted his ass gone since before most folk even heard of FLDS, I don't think we'll find any disagreement there - although since the authorities initially failed to follow up, and when they did, did so in the most destructive and counterproductive way possible, it's been a hassle and a half.

In part because no one acted quickly, Jeffs quickly pulled in some other folk of like mind who must also be removed, and thanks to a great deal of supporting evidence given to us freely, and then passed on to the prosecution voluntarily (as opposed to evidence collected by an invalid warrant which got tossed) some of these perps are getting their comeuppance, and I can't see you having an issue with that, neither.

Did the communitys isolation and beliefs make them an easy target, sure did - still doesn't give anyone the right to tell em how to live their lives or what to believe, and yeah, there's still a couple that think Jeffs is like a prophet or something, but if they wanna BELIEVE that, that's up to them, I only care what people DO.

Undoing the damage of the bad actors is harsh enough without having to undo the damage the State did on top of it, once the media coverage subsided, folk lost interest and any support for post incident counselling of any kind for those families innocent in the first place kinda evaporated - I'm still a mite pissed off about that, we got maybe THREE folk qualified for that kind of thing, and it's just not enough, although we did tap a few other people who've asked that their involvement remain discreet.

I been tryin to stay hands off cause of how some of them folk started lookin at me over the course of this - I do NOT like being held up in some theological mold I ain't suited for, and to be blunt imma piss poor role model and I know this.

Folks always lookin for a hero to save em, I guess - damn fools should realize it's better to become one than sit around on your hands waiting for one, but that's what their whole religion seems to be, dunnit ?

Anyhows, done is done, the families are reunited, and the bad actors are getting some just desserts by the barrelful, so other than the counselling issue, I shouldn't bitch...

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, August 17, 2008 6:12 AM

It's funny though, just how these eras stop...

Wilsons lunacy continued down the line with Harding, a classic Federalist/NeoCon type (don't believe me? do some research) who rather conveniently dropped dead, when it became apparent that all the crap he and his associates pulled was going to come out.

And then of course, he drops dead and the rats disappear back into the woodwork to come feed another day, just like what happened with Nixons pardon.

Lincoln went the same way, as did Garfield, dead men tell no tales.

Of course, all of the above were actually smart enough to know who their cohorts WERE and could have possibly named names if pressed.

On the other hand, Shrub - I suspect if we DID impeach him, AND managed to keep his dumb ass from having an "accident", we still wouldn't come out ahead because I honestly suspect the dim little bastard doesn't have a fuckin clue.

As for Cheney, he's too damn smart to talk, and probably too damn kinky to torture it out of, bastard would prolly be giving you pointers on the restraints....
(Man, could I tell you some things about Karl Rove, babieee...)

But we've never actually succeeded in a full on purge, always, ALWAYS, the collaborators and co-conspirators slip and slime away while we pound away on a mere figurehead for nothing.

Just ONCE I'd like to get these bastards rounded up and tossed in the slam as an example to future generations, if for no other reason than to forestall the onslaught of the next cycle of inevitable corruption of a system wide open to it from the very start.

Also, the excesses of the past were almost never fixed from within the system, but rather from pressure outside of it, often violent, universally illegal (just look at how COINTELPRO was exposed) and at great risk to the parties involved.

But what REALLY did them in, time and time again was the plain and simple refusal to cooperate by the greater bulk of the american people - they chose NOT to rat each other out, chose NOT to bend the knee, but silently and quietly refused to "play ball" - the same thing that in the end killed prohibition.

The differences today, which Sarge has mentioned, and I will expound on, is first and foremost an absolutely compliant media who would have turned in the folks offering the COINTELPRO documents and then buried it, instead of making it an expose - our only current check and balance against this in the modern era is the internet, and folk are thankfully making full use of that resource as the papers rail at fate, no longer being able to control the flow of information completely.

Another difference is the time factor, between making all the payments in our indentured servitude to the banks for the "privledge" of paying usurious interest greater than the value of your home or vehicle, and just trying to make ends meet with a sorely inflated faith-fiat currency, no one has TIME to freakin inform themselves, hell these days it's bad enough that folks are having serious trouble parenting their own kids cause they just ain't got time to do so, ergo obviously activism is going to take a back seat to scrambling to pay the bills - and I suspect this is entirely intentional.

But the main difference is that the current generation is full of people who worship the State with an almost religious fervor, something I find downright fuckin dangerous - and they won't hesitate a blink to turn you in, spy on you, or stab you in the back because they have no connection with you as another person, a human being... you're just a resource to exploit to them, a generation raised to venerate sociopathy, and doing a right damn good job of it.

Your life, your well being, means nothing to them, only their own, and if burning you improves their lot, or even insulates them from similar behavior directed at them, then they will do it - it's pure reflex cause it's how they were trained to think by a combination of media bombardment and the public school system.

The problem is that the roots are deeper, the poison this time around has gone far further

SIGNYM

Sunday, August 17, 2008 6:16 AM

Quote:
Your life, your well being, means nothing to them, only their own, and if burning you improves their lot, or even insulates them from similar behavior directed at them, then they will do it - it's pure reflex cause it's how they were trained to think by a combination of media bombardment and the public school system.

That is the essence of capitalism, my friend. So unless you burn THAT out...

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

KHYRON

Sunday, August 17, 2008 6:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
I'm sure one could make the argument that the Patriot Act alone negates any advances in terms of rights and individual dignity that were made since 2000.

You could. Go ahead and do so. List the individual freedoms you, or anyone else, have lost.

I don't really see the point of doing that. First, it'd get me deeply involved in this discussion, which is something I'm not interested in and definitely don't have the time for (just wanted to point out the fallacy in your line of argument), secondly, all we'd end up doing is me listing freedoms lost after 2000, and you'll be listing a list of freedoms not had before 2000. We'll both get wrapped up in excruciating detail and minutiae and it'll end up being a pissing context about who can google more efficiently and be more terse when it comes to dismissing the other's arguments out of hand. This isn't a topic I care deeply about, so life's too short, mate, it really is.

I'll mention though that flying's a real bitch these days. They're even allowed to confiscate my laptop and external hard drives for an undisclosed length of time without suspecting me of doing anything wrong.

Quote:
So as long as we're just discriminating against the gays or slaughtering the fringe populations it's not important to overall individual rights and dignity? That sort'a refutes your Patriot Act argument, since it's not going to have much affect on many people.

Okay, you'll have to be more specific about the anti-gay laws then, because I don't ever recall them being "slaughtered". All I really know is that they weren't and, in most cases, still aren't allowed to get married.

Quote:
Certainly less freedom than was lost to the anti-gay laws, and less lives than at Waco and Ruby Ridge.

You've already said yourself that had no lives been lost at Waco, it'd go down as nothing more than a comedy of errors. But a comedy of errors with deadly consequences is a sign of a society having fewer rights and less individual freedom? That's quite a leap. Thankfully, Bush managed to save us from the oppressive Clinton regime.

Quote:
If you take rights from an entire class of people just because of who they are, and not due to any wrong they've committed, you take rights from everyone.

That's the kind of over-generalized, wishy-washy, bleeding-heart liberal statement that I never expected to hear from you. If the cornerstone of your argument is that "gays have it less tough now", I'm going to have to say that it looks like you don't seem to be able to refute Chris's claim.

Quote:
Quote:
Finally, have the 1989, 1990 and 1991 cases you mentioned been overturned? (Serious question, not trying to be snarky)

Haven't checked yet.

Well, if they haven't been overturned, I don't see the point of mentioning them.

PS: I'll be out of town for a couple of days, so I won't be able to continue this discussion. Back over to you, Chris!

------------------------------

This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, August 17, 2008 6:34 AM

I am not a Capitalist, at least not in the form Ayn Rand *hiss* favors - never have been.
(You reallly don't wanna get me started on Rand)

Of course, to me Free Enterprise and Capitalism are far different things as well.

I find the idea of doing harm for personal profit fairly repulsive, myself, but am also all too aware that I am in a very damn tiny minority there.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

KHYRON

Sunday, August 17, 2008 6:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Ayn Rand

I've only read Atlas Shrugged, but awful, awful, awful. Not only does her philosophy come across as incredibly petty and childish ("stupid, unsuccessful people don't appreciate us enough! Well, we'll show them!"), it was also one of the worst-written books I've ever read. Excruciating.

------------------------------

This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Sunday, August 17, 2008 2:23 PM

I read Anthem as a kid. That was my first favorite book.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, August 17, 2008 6:55 PM

Actually Khyron, it was more like...

"How dare those lowly folk not born into wealth and power, and then kept ignorant by an education system we support as it prevents them from ever competing with us, blame us for exploiting them ?

Don't they know their place in life as our victims and fodder ?"

Not sayin the book doesn't have it's points, but this whole "Better Men" shit is straight out of the old-school english nobility playbook, folks born into wealth and power and thus able to afford better education and training, unafflicted by the wasted time spent on pure survival and paying the bills - seem to have this concept that instead of being born into privledge, that they were "Born Better" than other people, and at it's worst devolved into shit like Eugenics programs.

Some of us fucking Morlocks, were we freed from the endless scrabble to survive, the crushing cycle of debt inflicted by the attempt to gain even the merest education, housing and transportation, would not only be competative, but in fact I would lay odds the school of hard knocks and it's harsh lessons would be every bit as applicable at the boardroom table as on the street.

Oh, and Mister Galt - I don't OWE you a fuckin thing unless I desire to use your product, which I will do if the cost is reasonable and I happen to need it, YOUR desire for control is every bit as wicked as the other side and we'll be glad to see ya gone you pompous old windbag.

Apparently it never occured to Rand that us non-elite/wealthy are every bit as capable of building and creating when we're not locked into an ignorant cycle of debt-slavery BY the elite/wealthy and their Government cohorts from birth.

In the end, it really seemed to me that his problem wasn't how the system was managed, cause he was every bit as interested in social *control* himself, HIS major issue seemed to be only that it wasn't HIM holding the reins of power.

It's the same Fascist-Feudal bullshit, is all, but the one thing above all else that causes me to utterly despise Rand, is the concept that Altruism is an evil.

That is the very CORE of Sociopathy, were it not for Altruism, we never would have developed a society and evolved in the first fucking place.

You wanna see a Frem-ish take on this kinda thing, you'd do better checking out L. Neil Smiths "The Probability Broach".
Online Graphic Novel Version
http://www.bigheadpress.com/tpbtgn?page=0

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it