Right Wing Hero Shoots Up Liberal Church
POSTED BY: NewOldBrownCoat
UPDATED: Thursday, August 14, 2008 03:08
VIEWED: 9766
PAGE 9 of 13
Finn, what you said was
Quote:In a general sense, you view extremism as destabilizing, whether supporting "right-wing" goals (such as ending abortion) or "left-wing" goals (such as ending international trade agreements like NAFTA). In fact, you have considered the possibility that even philosophies with non-violence as a central tenet may become corrupted and violent. In other words, extremism (which you have defined as "domestic terrorism" or "violence" for the purposes of this thread) is a bad thing, whether applied by the left, the right, and the nominally non-violent. "Violence" is not a suitable means to ANY ideological end, no matter what part of the political spectrum. Correct?
Right-wing extremism has certainly been the major threat over most of the last 20 years. You can’t take this as vindication of Left-wing extremism. That completely ignores the 60s, 70s and the early 80s, when domestic terrorism stemming from Left-wing Extremism was a far worse threat then Right-wing Extremism of the last 20 years.... it will be a far more destabilizing influence then the current or previous bout of Right Wing extremism.
Quote:So, what about the idea of freedom? Is that not also an ideology which can become tainted with violence and terrorism? A philosophy in which the means might overtake the ends? Can one use widespread terrorism to create "freedom", like the IRA or the Basque separatists? What can be more violent than bombing a few hundred civilians to further a political end?
Your desire to focus solely on Right-Wing extremism as if it exists in a vacuum, does not promote healing of any kind, rather it intensifies the problem. As I said the better way to look at it is to realize that extremism exist on all sides and is pretty much independent of the philosophy. Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.
Except maybe bombing tens of thousands?
It seems to me that by YOUR standards... at least, the standards that you expressed in this thread... there are damn few good reasons to apply violence or terrorism, and many otherwise good causes (or potentially good causes) which can become tainted with extremism. A simple logical example of one such cause would be the cause of "freedom".
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Finn, I await your reply.
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It's so easy to see the black and white and label it as such, isn't it NOBC.
I choose to live in a world where there are many more than two answers to any given question. You should try it sometime. It will blow your mind.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Signym the manipulation in your argument was painfully obvious from the very beginning. Yes, I and everyone else get the point you think you’ve so cleverly disguised. You want to accuse the US of terrorism, and me a hypocrite, by pretending the Iraq war is ideological, but it is not, and your whole point is really quite pointless. So there's not really anything to respond to.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Uh, what is "shock and awe" except terrorizing a population with vastly superior firepower?
You want to accuse the US of terrorism
Quote:No, just terribly confused.
and me a hypocrite
Quote:Well it wasn't about self-defense, it wasn't about WMD, it wasn't about terrorism, and it wasn't (you say) about oil, so the only remaining reason was to liberate the Iraqi people from a merciless tyrant in the name of freedom. Right? That's a political goal, right?
by pretending the Iraq war is ideological
Quote:You call it manipulation but I call it logic. Your views are so context-sensitive that they can't withstand actually being, yanno, taken at face value. What you see as "good" or "bad" changes drastically depending on WHO you apply the rules to, or what the "cause" is. So when you invited us all to remove context by saying
the manipulation in your argument was painfully obvious from the very beginning.
Quote:what you REALLY meant was ANY IDEA... except that which YOU agree with. If you don't see the point, I'm sure others do.
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.
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No. What I meant was what I said. As usual, you won’t actually listen to what your being told, because you’re not really interested in discussion, just demonizing those you don’t agree with.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Which was that ANY IDEA can become the focus for violence and terrorism, which is destabilizing. An idea that I actually agree with! I don't think I'm "demonizing" you at all.
What I meant was what I said. As usual, you won’t actually listen to what your being told, because you’re not really interested in discussion, just demonizing those you don’t agree with.
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Quote:That’s the funny thing about you Signym. That’s why I don’t like talking to you. Because even when we find common ground, you will attempt to twist the “meaning” just so you can accuse me of being hypocrite. Like I said, you’re not interested in discussion, just finding reasons to attack people you don’t agree with.
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Which was that ANY IDEA can become the focus for violence and terrorism, which is destabilizing. An idea that I actually agree with! So why should I demonize you?
What I meant was what I said.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Yeah, but it's a dog & pony show...the Left may be banning trans-fats (hey- Ahnult ain't of the Left) and raising awareness about global climate change, but the Right is where the old money is, hence the power as well.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
You choose not to know it, because you don’t want to believe it, but the Left has considerable power in this country
The Left merely enjoys the ability to get the people behind rejecting the wars that the Right has THE POWER to start again and again, IMO.
So the left may have more voices, but they're little ones..........
isall
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Quote:Finn, I'm not "twisting" the meaning at all. I'm taking it at face value and applying it exactly as you said.
you will attempt to twist the “meaning”
Quote:That's a pretty global statement. Seems to me that it was meant to apply across the board, to ALL ideas. Now, perhaps you have unrealized mental reservations or exceptions that conflict with that statement. Perhaps what you meant was "Any idea except the idea of patriotism..." Or maybe what you meant was "...you have become an extremist, unless you're an authority..." ?
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.
Anyway, thats enough for today.
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