Joe Horn did the right thing.

POSTED BY: Wulfenstar
UPDATED: Monday, July 7, 2008 15:27
VIEWED: 8212
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WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 2:19 PM

'Nuff said.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 3:00 PM

Idiot.

'Nuff said.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

JONGSSTRAW

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 3:17 PM

The Grand Jury cleared him of any charges. Aside from that, for me personally, I think the guy is nuts! He risked his life, and possibly others' for what? He killed two people, and he'll have to live with that.

GINOBIFFARONI

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 3:24 PM

Horn himself seems to disagree with that

"
Horn would take it all back if he could "

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/5866954.html

I think this highlights a few problems

1) Effective Policing, a cop sat in his car outside while this went on ?

2) Appearance of effective policing, seems to me cases like this pop up where there is little faith or trust in the police

3) Rehabilitation, obliviously the repeat offenders were not at all reformed by their previous run ins with the law.

Lots of blame to be passed out

Lets party like its 1939

RIGHTEOUS9

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 4:29 PM

Thank you Jong,

with you on that one.

.

The burglars were stealing somebody's stuff and they were stupid enough to put themselves into a position where there's a chance of getting shot,

but for me, if I don't fear for the immediate safety of myself or another citizen, I don't go out there, and I don't pull that trigger. I don't know everybodies story. I don't assume a person doing a bad thing is rotten to the core. I certainly wouldn't play judge jury and executioner, something that as an agnostic, I tend to lean towards any act levied upon that person's existence, final, in this world or any other.

Do we only appreciate cruel and unusual punishment laws when it isn't vigilante justice we're talking about?

SIGNYM

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 4:39 PM

Some posters' response to frustration appears to be "Shoot somebody. Anybody"

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 5:03 PM

Ok, he gave them the chance to surrender. They didn't and he fired. End of story.

He was protecting his neighbors property, true. However, he was being a good neighbor by doing so. I wish my neighbors would do the same thing. But sadly, I live in the Northeast.

Here they pat criminals on the head for being so downtrodden. Poor, poor, little illegal crack-heads...its not your fault.

Its our societys fault that you are are the scum of the earth. Its the "mans" fault that you are worse than an animal.

If the illegal, drug-dealing, criminals had surrendered, they would still be alive today. They made their choice(s) and were delt their punishment.

I mean how stupid is it top rush at a man holding a shotgun?

Maybe as stupid as being an illegal robbing a Texans home.

I hope this sends a message to the rest of the cockroaches out there. F*ck with us and you WILL get a whole lot of lead unloaded into your sorry a**.

He did the right thing and I praise him for it.

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 5:04 PM

I was just gonna post a thread on this event.

The Grand Jury let the guy go.

Some facts
This older white guy saw 2 Mexicans breaking into his neighbor's house and burglarizing it. The neighbor was on vacation. He called 9-1-1. The dispatcher sent the cops. They did not arrive promptly. The guy stayed on the line with the dispatcher, describing the burglars and what they were doing. Finally, he said that they were trying to leave, and he was gonna get his gun and shoot them. The dispatcher told him not to, that the cops were coming. He got his shotgun, and shot, and killed, both burglars. The guy was arrested, charged, and released.

Some additional facts determined later.
At least one of the Mexicans was an illegal alien. At least one of them had a criminal record, as a convicted drug dealer. A plainclothes cop nearby witnessed part of these events.

Commments and questions.

Why didn't the cops get there more quickly? Was this out in the boonies somewhere that it took a long time to drive, or were they loafing? Why didn't that plainclothes cop do something?

Why didn't the guy try to hold the burglars, instead of just killing them? Why didn't he holler, " Freeze , turkeys!" or whatever the TV cliche is, and then shoot if they tried to run? Why didn't he shoot low, to wound or cripple them?

I wonder what the letter of the law is, in Texas. As I understand it, here in California, use of lethal force as self defense is only a legal defense if it is purely defensive, and in defense of your own person, not even another person, and not of property in any case. If you take any offensive action, it's no longer self defense. As the victim, you have to try to escape, and unless the criminal pursues you, it ain't defense. If the criminal stops coming and turns away, incident's over.

Beyond that, I agree with the guy and the Jury. The guy stepped up to help his neighbor, to protect his neighbor's property, after trying to do the right thing by calling the cops. And the illegal alien criminals did, morally , deserve to be punished, if not killed.

GINOBIFFARONI

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 5:09 PM

The point is it is the duty of the police who are trained ( one can hope ) and equipped to handle said situation.

Too many what if's are involved here, what if there was a case of mistaken identity where someone who was suppose to be in the house came out and was confronted with Horn...

or if the cops showed up seen Horn and his shotgun and gunned him down

or someone who had been hiding in the house goes to run away and Horn guns them down.....

Now, my thoughts are the police are becoming less effective

and prisons are not rehabilitating anyone

Lets party like its 1939

KHYRON

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 5:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
Why didn't the guy try to hold the burglars, instead of just killing them? Why didn't he holler, " Freeze , turkeys!" or whatever the TV cliche is, and then shoot if they tried to run? Why didn't he shoot low, to wound or cripple them?

He said: "Move and you're dead." ( http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=2007_4479736)

I agree with Gino's posts on this.

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This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 5:17 PM

Quote:
Ok, he gave them the chance to surrender. They didn't and he fired. End of story.

There seem to be several inconsistencies with this guy's story: He says that he told them to stop, that one guy "charged" him and the other turned to run. As it turns out, both were shot in the back, so both of them were running away.

He says he feared for his neighbor, but I've also heard that he knew his neighbor was on vacation. He said he also feared for himself. In the end, he wouldn't do it again.

Ultimately I don't believe that it's moral or ethical to kill someone unless it's in defense of a life. You'll have to convince me that killing a person under those circumstances was moral, and you'll have to convince me that allowing killing in defense of property w/o consequence will create the kind of society we wish to live in.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

RUE

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 5:18 PM

Wulfie

"Ok, he gave them the chance to surrender. They didn't and he fired."

Horn told the Chronicle he went downstairs to get a description of the men for police. But on the 911 transcript in response to the dispatcher's warning that he could get shot if he went outside, Horn said, "You wanna make a bet? I'm gonna kill 'em." (Sounds premeditated to me.)

He shouted "Move, you're dead," words he regrets saying, and fired when one of the men started to charge him, the newspaper reported.

Horn told the newspaper that he turned slightly toward the right and fired toward the second man, Ortiz, who ran toward the neighbor's house. Torres was walking toward him and Horn fired a third time.

Horn confronted the men with a 12-gauge shotgun and shot both in the back. (Supposedly he shot them in the back as they were coming towards him. Either Horn was lying his ass off, or he was so pumped with adrenalin, he literally couldn't see reality. But then, he did hit them. I vote for lying.)

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 5:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

Too many what if's are involved here, what if there was a case of mistaken identity where someone who was suppose to be in the house came out and was confronted with Horn...

or if the cops showed up seen Horn and his shotgun and gunned him down

or someone who had been hiding in the house goes to run away and Horn guns them down.....

All good hypotheticals, and we discussed some of them at work, but not strictly relevant in this case.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 5:27 PM

Rue-pie....

He killed 2 illegal, drug-dealing, criminal/animals who were robbing his neighbors home.

What exactly is wrong with that?

The cop who showed up (late) on the scene, witnessed what happened.

He testified that it was a justifiable shooting.

2 down, a lot more to go.

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 5:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
He said: "Move and you're dead."

Missed that in the ( not very detailed ) items I read. Now I wonder about his attitude. Was he being Rambo? Did he go out there to "kill some bad guys"? Offering to bet with the Dispatcher, as it is said he did, suggests an agressive, violent attitude. Maybe.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 5:38 PM

Quote:
He killed 2 illegal, drug-dealing, criminal/animals who were robbing his neighbors home. What exactly is wrong with that?

First of all, they weren't animals. They were people. Dehumanizing people... calling them "animals", "degenerates", "racially inferior" is just an excuse for murder and... if extended to enough... genocide.

Quote:
2 down, a lot more to go.

And now we know what kind of person YOU are.

Take off your brown coat and put on your brown shirt. It suits you better; you despoil brown coats everywhere.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

JONGSSTRAW

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 5:39 PM

Someone breaks into YOUR home while you're there, by all means blast away...you don't know what their intentions are, and you don't have time to ask...that is justifyable self-defense.

What this guy did is nothing of the sort......he initiated the violence, and he shot them dead. He should have stayed in his house as he was instructed to do, and let the police & justice system handle the case.

Also, the first thing they teach you when you take a gun-license safety course is you don't point a weapon as a threat. You don't take a human life over property.

RUE

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 5:39 PM

Gino

There could be any number of reasons for a slow response. One is lack of GPS in patrol cars. Or sometimes (not apparently this time) it happens when people are unable to provide an address and the 911 system doesn't have automatic locators - either cell call tracing or phone system addresses to go with a land line. At other times it's lack of map location in new developments not yet entered into the 911 system - the police have an address but can't find the street or home. Another is priority - threats to life are higher on this list than property crimes. The police could be stretched too thin - too much territory to cover and it takes too long to get from one place to the next even if they leave right away.

So, while I don't know what the problem was, I can see there are many possibilities where the police are not at fault.

And I don't see these as essential problems with the concept, just the usual lack of monetary support, along with lack of support for most other public functions in the US.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

KWICKO

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 5:40 PM

Okay, Texas IS a bit looser with the lethal force laws than several other states. Under Texas law, according to Horn's defense attorney, if you are watching your neighbor's property, under the law it is essentially YOUR property, and you are within your rights to use lethal force to protect it.

Also, under Texas law, you are within your rights to use lethal force to PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY, not only to protect your life. I've looked up the statutes on it, and if someone is doing something so minor as tagging my fence or bashing my mailbox, I am legally within my rights to blow them the hell away.

Does that mean I agree with what Horn did? Hardly. Taking a life is a pretty major thing to do, and you can't step back from it once it's done. I can certainly understand where the urge to do what he did came from; according to one source, he and/or his neighbors had been burglarized repeatedly, and he was simply sick of it. Something similar happened in Austin a few years back, where a guy's Chevy Suburban was broken into no less than four times in two years, and he caught a guy breaking into it again, and he lost it. He tracked the guy down, chased him two blocks, and shot him five or six times in the back, killing him. And he was charged with murder, but a grand jury no-billed him and set him free. Extreme? Possibly, but as one long-ago Texan said, "Texas has more people that need killin' than horses that need stealin'."

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

SIGNYM

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 5:42 PM

WULF, just in case you misede it the first time:

Quote:
He killed 2 illegal, drug-dealing, criminal/animals who were robbing his neighbors home. What exactly is wrong with that?

First of all, they weren't animals. They were people. Dehumanizing people... calling them "animals", "degenerates", "racially inferior" is just an excuse for murder and... if extended to enough... genocide.

Quote:
2 down, a lot more to go.

And now we know what kind of person YOU are.

Take off your brown coat and put on your brown shirt. It suits you better; you despoil brown coats everywhere.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 5:43 PM

Another question, that I raise as a *Q*U*E*S*T*I*O*N*, not an accusation.
How much of a role did racism play in this? The shooter was a white guy; the dead guys, Mexicans, even if druggies, illegal aliens, and criminals; the cop was probably white ( although I haven't seen that said anywhere.); it was in Texas, a state with a history of racism of various sorts; and, I'll betcha, the Grand Jury was white.

If this was in Alabama or Mississippi, and the victims were black, no question. In Texas, with Mexicans, maybe/maybe not.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 5:43 PM

Whatever Siggy.

I don't feel bad about dehumanizing drug-dealing criminals.

RUE

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 5:46 PM

"I don't feel bad about dehumanizing drug-dealing criminals."

And rag heads, pussy-liberals, and any other group you have a grotch for, no doubt.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

GINOBIFFARONI

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 5:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Gino

There could be any number of reasons for a slow response. One is lack of GPS in patrol cars. Sometimes (not apparently this time) it happens when people are unable to provide an address and the 911 system doesn't have automatic locators - either cell call tracing or phone system addresses to go with a land line. Sometimes it's lack of map location in new developments not yet entered into the 911 system - the police have an address but can't find the street or home. Another is priority - threats to life are higher on this list than property crimes. The police could be stretched too thin - too much territory to cover and it takes too long to get from one place to the next even if they leave right away.

So, while I don't know what the problem was, I can see there are many possibilities where the police are not at fault.

And I don't see these as essential problems with the concept, just the usual lack of monetary support, along with lack of support for most other public functions in the US.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

Yes, but the failure or even the appearance of failing to act undermines the polices credibility and always seems to show an increase in incidents like this one.

Lack of money / poor force deployment / priority issues / etc

Now, I don't know if this is on going in this area, but I would begin to ask questions about funding, why 10 officers were manning radar speed traps when you had a shortage of officer to respond, etc

it just shows what questions should be asked to address the problem

Lets party like its 1939

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 5:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
Another question, that I raise as a *Q*U*E*S*T*I*O*N*, not an accusation.
How much of a role did racism play in this? The shooter was a white guy; the dead guys, Mexicans, even if druggies, illegal aliens, and criminals; the cop was probably white ( although I haven't seen that said anywhere.); it was in Texas, a state with a history of racism of various sorts; and, I'll betcha, the Grand Jury was white.

If this was in Alabama or Mississippi, and the victims were black, no question. In Texas, with Mexicans, maybe/maybe not.

The only racists were the ones sitting with the dead criminals families.

Quanell X (if its misspelled wrong, please forgive me... I have trouble spelling ghetto nonsense names) is pissing himself silly over this. He is part/head of the so-called "New Black Panthers"

Oh, and btw.... Joe Horns neighbors, the ones whose home he was protecting, were Vietnamese.

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 5:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Okay, Texas IS a bit looser with the lethal force laws than several other states. Under Texas law, according to Horn's defense attorney, if you are watching your neighbor's property, under the law it is essentially YOUR property, and you are within your rights to use lethal force to protect it.

Also, under Texas law, you are within your rights to use lethal force to PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY, not only to protect your life. I've looked up the statutes on it, and if someone is doing something so minor as tagging my fence or bashing my mailbox, I am legally within my rights to blow them the hell away.

Thanx for the answer. Another question-- Did the neighbor say, " Hey, Joe , I'm going on vacation. Watch my place, water my lawn, feed my dog, here's a key in case of emergencty," which would have given him some kind of authorization;, or was he just snooping out the window and he saw this; or, is this entire question irrelevant?

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 5:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

The only racists were the ones sitting with the dead criminals families.

Quanell X (if its misspelled wrong, please forgive me... I have trouble spelling ghetto nonsense names) is pissing himself silly over this. He is part/head of the so-called "New Black Panthers"

Oh, and btw.... Joe Horns neighbors, the ones whose home he was protecting, were Vietnamese.

See? That's why I asked the question.

RUE

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 6:02 PM

"Yes, but the failure or even the appearance of failing to act undermines the policy's credibility and always seems to show an increase in incidents like this one."

Well, people, in the main, get what they are stupid enough to accept. In the end, most would accept policies that underfund schools, hospitals, police etc. b/c they are paid for with (SCREEAAAMMM) taxes. When the institutions then fail (as they can't help but doing, from time to time) the stupid people can then ditch them.

I myself can hardly wait for this to happen. Their utopia will be a sight to behold. I'm very interested in how people will respond to the lack of ERs, public schools, public police, fire departments, trash pickup etc.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 6:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"I don't feel bad about dehumanizing drug-dealing criminals."

And rag heads, pussy-liberals, and any other group you have a grotch for, no doubt.

***************************************************************

Ehh, if any of those groups are f*cking with me and mine, NOT ONE SINGLE BIT.

http://www.monstersandcritics.com
/news/usa/news/article_1378252.php
/Quanell_X_turned_away_by_Texan_Joe
_Horns_neighbors

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME

RUE

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 6:10 PM

"Ehh, if any of those groups are f*cking with me and mine, NOT ONE SINGLE BIT."

So, uhm, if there is a rag-head standing in front of you not bothering you one bit, if he's part of a GROUP that you THINK is f*cking with you in some indirect way ...

***************************************************************
Oh yeah - how about breaking up that link of yours ? Too much to ask ?

SIGNYM

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 6:11 PM

Quote:
me and mine

Well, you weren't there and it wasn't your property or even your neighbor's, so you seem to have a pretty extended view of "me and mine". What you REALLY mean is "Me and people like me".

I noticed that in the other thread about secessionist movements where you kept using the term "we". I wanted to post What means this "we", Kimo-sabe? but didn't have time. It reminds me of the Philipino who said People in my country don't do laundry. Dehumanizing ... it's so easy to do people dont' recognize it even when they're doing it.

ALL God's chillun' are people!

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 6:16 PM

Whatever Siggy,

I won't play semantics with you.

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 6:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"Ehh, if any of those groups are f*cking with me and mine, NOT ONE SINGLE BIT."

So, uhm, if there is a rag-head standing in front of you not bothering you one bit, if he's part of a GROUP that you THINK is f*cking with you in some indirect way ...

All hail Queen of the strawman.

RUE

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 6:25 PM

All hail Queen of the ad hominem.

And btw it's not a strawman, just extending exactly what he said. You need to look up the definition.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 6:27 PM

Rue-bie,

He was dead on. You are the Queen of the Strawmen. lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

SIGNYM

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 6:31 PM

Quote:
I won't play semantics with you.

Then maybe you need to go play with yourself. Semantics, I mean.

Problem is, you apparently don't have a friggin' clue what you mean by "people", "me", and "we". You're totally unconscious. You should take some of those definitions out for a spin. Rev 'em up, take them for a few quick turns and see where they run off the road.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 6:41 PM

In any case,

I don't care about the dead criminals, or their families.

I do care about Joe Horn and his future.

Im sure hes going to be harrassed to no end.

Maybe even Shaquaniquanell...ect ect...X will try and have him killed. (Which is not out of the relm of possibility for that monster)

I just hope that he can get on with the rest of his life.

RUE

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 6:47 PM

Oh yeah - how about breaking up that link of yours ? Too much to ask ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

SIGNYM

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 6:52 PM

Quote:
Maybe even Shaquaniquanell...ect ect...X will try and have him killed. (Which is not out of the relm of possibility for that monster)

So Shaquaniquanell...ect ect...X is a monster. Eh. You should look in the mirror.

Wulf, the only thing that we get out of your scenario is vendettas, unecessary bloodshed, and possibly even genocide. Can't you think of a better way?

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 6:52 PM

Just wanted to make sure you read it Rue-bie....

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 7:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Maybe even Shaquaniquanell...ect ect...X will try and have him killed. (Which is not out of the relm of possibility for that monster)
So Shaquaniquanell...ect ect...X is a monster. Eh. You should look in the mirror.

Wulf, the only thing that we get out of your scenario is vendettas, unecessary bloodshed, and possibly even genocide. Can't you think of a better way?

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

What is better than neighbors protecting each other?

SIGNYM

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 7:03 PM

Quote:
What is better than neighbors protecting each other?

What is worse than neighbors shooting at each other?

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 7:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
What is better than neighbors protecting each other?
What is worse than neighbors shooting at each other?

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

The PC police protecting the criminal/animal element in our midst.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 7:11 PM

Quote:
The PC police protecting the criminal/animal element in our midst.

Criminals are not animals, they are people. So if you rephrase your statement, you can describe to me how criminals are being "protected" by "the PC police" and we can move on from there.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

RUE

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 7:13 PM

"Just wanted to make sure you read it Rue-bie."

Is that why I had to post it twice ? Just curious.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 7:15 PM

Siggy,

Remember, Im not plaiying Semantics with you.

There is a line between being a criminal, and being someone forced into desperate measures.

Those two animals were not "desperate". They were just greedy, and willing to take what was someone elses. On top of it, they were willing to attack a 62 year old man. (Btw, did anyone notice that when they advanced on Mr Horn, one of them was carrying a crow bar?)

Mr Horn stood up against these creatures and gave them both barrels. Literally. If only we could all do the same against such villany, such darkness. (Sorry, don't mean to get all poetical. lol)

You cross that line, you get all of what is coming to you. Hopefully a whole lot of lead to the face.

He did the right thing. Accept it, or don't.

RUE

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 7:17 PM

"There is a line between being a criminal, and being someone forced into desperate measures."

I'm wondering how Joe Horn was 'forced' into 'desperate measures'. It's a hard case to make when you've left the safety of your home with the avowed and recorded intention of killing, and shot two people in the back.

I see rage, I see vengeance, but I don't see a person left with no way out.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

SIGNYM

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 7:20 PM

Quote:
Remember, Im not plaiying Semantics with you.

Mmm...'kay...

Quote:
There is a line between being a criminal, and being someone forced into desperate measures.

Is that ... playing semantics? Drawing a distinction between "desperate measures" and "criminality"?

Quote:
You cross that line, you get all of what is coming to you.

What line is that? Please... describe. I'd like to know which line that is so that I don't accidentally run afoul of your gun.

In the meantime, I'm gonna get back to work.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 7:29 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doctrine

SIGNYM

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 7:36 PM

Quote:
It then goes on to give a person the legal right to use deadly force to defend that place (his/her "castle"), and/or any other innocent persons legally inside it, from violent attack or an intrusion which may lead to violent attack.

Yes, but what does that have to do with your neighbor's house being burgled, and shooting people on the way out?

Back to work.

Sigh.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 7:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
It then goes on to give a person the legal right to use deadly force to defend that place (his/her "castle"), and/or any other innocent persons legally inside it, from violent attack or an intrusion which may lead to violent attack.
What does that have to do with your neighbor's house being burgled, and shooting people on the way OUT?

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

Keep reading and don't paraphrase....

"The occupant(s) of the home must reasonably believe that the intruder intends to commit some other felony, such as arson or burglary"

In Texas this applys to your neighbors home.

The jury found him not guilty of ANY crime. He was well within his legal rights.

Especially since they were at his front porch when he shot them.

KHYRON

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 7:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Yes, but what does that have to do with your neighbor's house being burgled, and shooting people on the way out?

I know I'm going to get lynched for saying something in this thread, but they were on their way to his house when he confronted them. They were on his front lawn.

And I'm outta heeerrree ...

------------------------------

This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.

RIGHTEOUS9

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 7:44 PM

dude, if you're going to label everybody who wrongfully takes something that is yours an animal, you're going to be really fucking busy. Hell our system is set up to benefit that very action. Legal doesn't make "right" by the way.

Truth is, we're all animals, and we all do base things, some less so than others, but your point is to try to dehumanize a certain and select populace, while using a measurment that is frankly more broad than you are willing to admit.

edited to ad,

or do you think that if you are bamboozled into a bad credit mess, or if your company goes to the government and the court says, sure don't pay those pensions you were contracted to pay, that the correct response is to go shoot the judge as well?

Of course that wouldn't be legal, but we aren't talking legality, we're talking morality here. Is it moral to take a person's life who has not physically threatened you? and He did leave his house with the intention of kiling them. He said so to the dispatcher.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 7:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
dude, if you're going to label everybody who wrongfully takes something that is yours an animal, you're going to be really fucking busy. Hell our system is set up to benefit that very action. Legal doesn't make "right" by the way.

Truth is, we're all animals, and we all do base things, some less so than others, but your point is to try to dehumanize a certain and select populace, while using a measurment that is frankly more broad than you are willing to admit.

Ehh, I use the term animals because "low-scum-that-shouldnt-be-allowed-to-breathe-let-alone-breed-on-the-same-planet-as-me" takes too long to write.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 7:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
dude, if you're going to label everybody who wrongfully takes something that is yours an animal, you're going to be really fucking busy. Hell our system is set up to benefit that very action. Legal doesn't make "right" by the way.

Truth is, we're all animals, and we all do base things, some less so than others, but your point is to try to dehumanize a certain and select populace, while using a measurment that is frankly more broad than you are willing to admit.

edited to ad,

or do you think that if you are bamboozled into a bad credit mess, or if your company goes to the government and the court says, sure don't pay those pensions you were contracted to pay, that the correct response is to go shoot the judge as well?

Of course that wouldn't be legal, but we aren't talking legality, we're talking morality here. Is it moral to take a person's life who has not phisically threatened you? and He did leave his house with the intention of kiling them. He said so to the dispatcher.

Morally, he was right. Legally, he was right. And as to your other questions...do I think the same thing should happen to those EnRon f*ckers? Yes.
Should it happen to child-molestors? YES

(Sorry if thats off track, but I wanted to cover all possibilities)

SIGNYM

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 7:56 PM

Quote:
I know I'm going to get lynched for saying something in this thread, but they were on their way to his house when he confronted them. They were on his front lawn

So far, I've gotten a lot of conflicting stories. It sounds like Joe might have made up something about feeling threatened because he thought he might be indicted. But the burlars were shot in the back, and he said he was going to go kill them. I suppose an important piece of eidence would be where the bodies fell. But it sounds like he was pissed-off more than anything.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 7:58 PM

They were about 5 feet from his front door.

RUE

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 8:02 PM

"Keep reading and don't paraphrase....

"The occupant(s) of the home must reasonably believe that the intruder intends to commit some other felony, such as arson or burglary"

In Texas this applys to your neighbors home.

The jury found him not guilty of ANY crime. He was well within his legal rights.

Especially since they were at his front porch when he shot them."

Why do you keep inflating the facts ?

"As the burglars were exiting his neighbor's home, and approaching Horn's home ..." Please note that they were only going in the direction of and not on his property until Horn stepped out - with the avowed and recorded intention of killing them, even though they were NOT on his property at the time. "He told the dispatcher, "I'm not going to let them get away with it." Shortly after, he said, "I'm gonna shoot. I'm gonna shoot."" "... on the 911 transcript in response to the dispatcher's warning that he could get shot if he went outside, Horn said, "You wanna make a bet? I'm gonna kill 'em.""

So here we have Joe Horn, not under any personal threat at them time, intending to kill burglars on his neighbors property.

It wasn't until he stepped out to shoot them that they (the burglars) came onto his property (and not at his porch btw).

And even then HE SHOT THEM IN THE BACK.

You STILL have a hard saying time Joe Horn was forced into action. He had plenty of choices left, and chose to be a vigilante.

While it may be legal, it doesn't mean there was no other way.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

KHYRON

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 8:04 PM

Front yard:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/13/us/13texas.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=2007_4479736
http://www.hcnonline.com/site/news.cfm?brd=1574&pag=1005&newsid=198189
52&dept_id=532238

------------------------------

This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.

RUE

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 8:05 PM

Horn: He’s coming out the window right now, I gotta go, buddy. I’m sorry, but he’s coming out the window.
Dispatcher: Don’t, don’t — don’t go out the door. Mr. Horn? Mr. Horn?
Horn: They just stole something. I’m going after them, I’m sorry.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside.
Horn: I ain’t letting them get away with this s--t. They stole something. They got a bag of something.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside the house.
Horn: I’m doing this.
Dispatcher: Mr. Horn, do not go outside the house.
Horn: I’m sorry. This ain’t right, buddy.
Dispatcher: You’re going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun, I don’t care what you think.
Horn: You want to make a bet?
Dispatcher: OK? Stay in the house.
Horn: They’re getting away!
Dispatcher: That’s all right. Property’s not worth killing someone over, OK?
Horn: [curses]
Dispatcher: Don’t go out the house. Don’t be shooting nobody. I know you’re pissed and you’re frustrated, but don’t do it.
Horn: They got a bag of loot.
Dispatcher: OK. How big is the bag ... which way are they going?
Horn: I’m going outside. I’ll find out.
Dispatcher: I don’t want you going outside, Mr. Horn.
Horn: Well, here it goes, buddy. You hear the shotgun clicking and I’m going.
Dispatcher: Don’t go outside.
Horn: [yelling] Move, you’re dead!
[Sound of shots being fired]

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

RUE

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 8:08 PM

Khyron

When (maybe if) you read the 911 transcript I posted, you'll note that Horn decided to go after the burglars when they were on his neighbor's property - in fact, just climbing out the window. You simply can't make a case for self defense.

One was on the front lawn, one on the neighbor's property. Both were shot IN THE BACK. And, uhm, I don't see any front porch nearby as Wulfie claims. It all looks close the the sidewalk, don't you think ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

SIGNYM

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 8:09 PM

Okay, scanned the various new reports and the transcript. Some things aren't clear:

How far away on the front lawn were they? Five feet, like Wulf says? 20 feet? At 20 feet it's hard to make a credible case for being deadly afraid. Also, the transcript indicates somebody who's pissed, not somebody's who's afraid. And, the burglars were shot in the back.

All in all, I don't think the Joe was so terrified that he felt compelled to shoot. I dont' see "desperate circumstances" involved and I think he made up a lot of shit because he thought he might be indicted. I think he could have chosen differently at about 10 junctures. Although he may have been pumped up w/ adrenaline, he should take responsibility for being out there with a gun in the first place.

KHYRON

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 8:13 PM

Quote:
"Get the law over here quick. I've now, get, one of them's in the front yard over there, he's down, he almost run down the street. I had no choice. They came in the front yard with me, man, I had no choice! ... Get somebody over here quick, man."

Dispatcher: "Mister Horn, are you out there right now?"

Horn: "No, I am inside the house, I went back in the house. Man, they come right in my yard, I didn't know what the --- they was gonna do, I shot 'em, OK?"

Dispatcher: "Did you shoot somebody?

Horn: "Yes, I did, the cops are here right now."

Dispatcher: "Where are you right now?"

Horn: "I'm inside the house. ..."

Dispatcher: "Mister Horn, put that gun down before you shoot an officer of mine. I've got several officers out there without uniforms on."

Horn: "I am in the front yard right now. I am ..."

Dispatcher: "Put that gun down! There's officers out there without uniforms on. Do not shoot anybody else, do you understand me? I've got police out there..."

Horn: "I understand, I understand. I am out in the front yard waving my hand right now."

Dispatcher: "You don't have a gun with you, do you?

Horn: "No, no, no."

Dispatcher: "You see a uniformed officer? Now lay down on the ground and don't do nothing else."

Yelling is heard.

Dispatcher: "Lay down on the ground, Mister Horn. Do what the officers tell you to do right now."

I'm not saying he was right, but I am saying they were on his front lawn. If you're making "they weren't on his property" your underlying argument, you'd be wrong in this case, at least according to all the sources that I've seen.

------------------------------

This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 8:14 PM

Face it Sig and Rue,

He did the right thing. I only wish, again, that I had that calibre of neighbor next to me.

They came out of his neighbors home after burglarizing it. he stepped out to confront them. They came at him. He fired 3 times.

The officer arriving stated that he saw the criminals running at Mr. Horn. It was both self defense, and a neighborly act.

RUE

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 8:18 PM

He left his house to kill people who were taking things. It wasn't self defense, it wasn't forced onto him. It was his choice to go and kill. He's no better than a gang-banger killing over territory.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 8:20 PM

Lol Rue. You WOULD say something like that.

Mr Horn v.s. gangbangers?

Comparing a good man to the scum of the earth?

Comparing a person who there should be more of, to those that there should be less of?

How do you even come close to believing that?

RUE

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 8:25 PM

B/c the actions are the same. By his actions, and his words, he was looking for vengeance, looking to kill over stuff.

And unlike you, I don't care who a person is. I watch what they do to form my opinions.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 8:27 PM

Please, this guy wasn't the Punisher.

....although, I wish there were actually a Punisher out there....but I digress.

RUE

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 8:28 PM

And that's why you like this guy. You too are all about getting revenge, getting yours, going after the faceless them of the moment.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

SIGNYM

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 8:31 PM

Quote:
Comparing a good man to the scum of the earth?

A good man who shoots people in the back? Uh.... I think one of your definitons just ran off the road.

Yanno Wulf, I have more sympathy for Joe's situation than I have for your viewpoint.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 8:34 PM

If the faceless "them" of the moment, again, are f*cking with me and mine..you are damn right.

Its not revenge, or vengeance, or any of that other cock and bull.

Its protecting the good of the world from the evil that infects it. Its standing with and for the good and the right aginst the evil of the darkness and the black.

Its being that lone man that stands against the tide of horror that animals like this inflict on our communities and our lives.

Its not revenge, or vengeance.

Its justice.

Its protection.

Its holding the line.

This gives me hope that maybe, just maybe, we can still stand up for whats right and not be crucified for it.

KHYRON

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 8:37 PM

Well, as I read it, he freaked out when he saw them coming towards his house and went outside and shot them. I don't think it was right, but I also don't think it's right to judge how a person reacts when he's put in a situation like this for the first time. I can imagine that he thought they were going to break into his home and attack him. I think it's very likely that in his mind, he was acting in self defense.

So I don't agree with what he did, but I won't judge him, since for all I know I might react the same if I were in his situation, even though I can't imagine doing so when I'm not in that situation.

I know, it makes me pure evil that I don't condemn him and all he holds dear. I don't care.

By the way, there's a lot of moral indignation about the death of two criminals. Where's the outrage about the death of Esmin Green?

------------------------------

This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 8:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
Well, as I read it, he freaked out when he saw them coming towards his house and went outside and shot them. I don't think it was right, but I also don't think it's right to judge how a person reacts when he's put in a situation like this for the first time. I can imagine that he thought they were going to break into his home and attack him. I think it's very likely that in his mind, he was acting in self defense.

So I don't agree with what he did, but I won't judge him, since for all I know I might react the same if I were in his situation, even though I can't imagine doing so when I'm not in that situation.

I know, it makes me pure evil that I don't condemn him and all he holds dear. I don't care.

By the way, there's a lot of moral indignation about the death of two criminals. Where's the outrage about the death of Esmin Green?

------------------------------

This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.

Ehh, start a seperate post about her.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 8:50 PM

WULF...Wow. Sounds like something from "Galaxy Quest".

At an earlier point I was going to say that you had an inflated view of "we". Now I'm gonna say that Joe Horn would do better w/o supporters like you!

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 8:57 PM

Whatever Siggy,

Just because a long diet of psudo-liberalism has burned out your soul, dont push your crap on me...lol

And, I know it sounds corny, but its how I feel.

And yes, I did read a lot of comic books growing up.

KWICKO

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 9:38 PM

Quote:

This gives me hope that maybe, just maybe, we can still stand up for whats right and not be crucified for it.

Historically, you'd be wrong. You DO get crucifed for it, even if your Jesus Effin' Christ.

Just sayin'...

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 10:54 PM

I might not fully agree with what he did, but after the 911 transcript, no way in hell am I going to condemn it.

Criminals DEPEND on that "cooperation" bullshit spoon-fed to us by folks who would be out of a job (and the ability to arbitrarily harrass us) if we didn't.

He was watching folks rob his neighbor, he thought it was wrong, and he acted on his own moral compass.

I will not, can not, fault that.

As for shooting someone in the back, if I *am* going to shoot someone, if I feel there is enough cause and reason to do so, I don't particularly care what part of them is facing me when I do it.

He made his choice, and he has to live it with, and that's gonna suck badly, as the very worst punishments are those self-inflicted, and given the circumstances that's more than bad enough.

To be blunt, most people do react badly when they realize the police are either on the bad guys side encouraging you to lay down and take it, or on their own, more interested in prosecuting YOU than the criminal who just tried to victimize you.

Perhaps if folk would dispense with the belief that the police actually DO protect and serve the community (they don't, they 'enforce the law' pettyspeak for being the strongarm by which the Gov executes their will upon us by force of arms) then perhaps the emotional crises that occur and contribute to these events could be avoided.

Go on, try to tell me that the shock of being told to just sit there and let it happen didn't have a negative impact on this guys emotions and reasoning, thus contributing significantly to what happened....

Let's give up the fantasy that the police are our friends and protectors, please - it would solve a lot of problems caused by such an insane delusion.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

SIGNYM

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 11:22 PM

Quote:
Go on, try to tell me that the shock of being told to just sit there and let it happen didn't have a negative impact on this guys emotions and reasoning, thus contributing significantly to what happened....

Oh Frem, puhleez! I've BEEN in that situation IN MY OWN HOUSE. Yeah, it was frightening and all but being told by 911 "They're on their way..." DIDN'T make we to go get my gun!

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

THATWEIRDGIRL

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 11:47 PM

Justice? You call it justice to be killed for taking somebody's stuff? I think not. Where's the justice for taking the life of someone who wasn't physically threatening you?

Horn's temper was up and he was frustrated with events and the police. I can see how everything happened. He looks outside and sees them heading towards his place. he was pissed before but that's the last straw, he's going to stop them and make sure they don't keep robbing everyone. In the heat of the moment he tells them to stop and they doubt him or don't understand the old man with the gun so one of them keeps going. They hear him cock or whatever you do with shotguns and they begin to turn but it's too late. They're dead.

He may have said he was going to kill them, but I don't think he meant for them to die like that. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt here by saying he regretted it the moment he realized they were dead.

What I want to know is why there was a police officer present that didn't identify himself or try to diffuse the situation. If he had stepped up, I bet Joe would have lowered the gun some. Shame. Those men didn't deserve to die and Horn shouldn't have got off scott free. At least give him some probation for manslaughter or something.

---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown
www.thatcostumegirl.com
www.thatweirdgirl.com

RUE

Wednesday, July 2, 2008 11:55 PM

Khyron, TWG

I just want to correct an error. He did not go out when he saw them coming over. He went out when he saw them coming out the window.

Horn: He’s coming out the window right now, I gotta go, buddy. I’m sorry, but he’s coming out the window.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, July 3, 2008 12:15 AM

That's you, Siggy, and you got every right to handle such things in your own way, fine by me.

But you ain't me, and got no right to force your way on me, and if someone is in my home and presenting a threat to me, they get one warning to leave, and then they get lead, I am too old, slow and poor of sight and speed to be playing macho bullshit games cause some damn fool thinks I ought to give some punk on MY turf with ill intend a fair chance to carry out that intent.

I don't force my ways upon others, but it seems that ain't EVER reciprocated - why is that, ya think ?

As for this one, say a neighbors place being burglarised - my only neighbor is quite capable of taking care of his own stuff and we have a bizarre sort of privacy deal where we *deliberately* stay out and away from each others business, to an extreme, and we share a common attitude towards "the forces of law and order" (cops, city council, etc), so you must understand that he would NOT thank me for handing the cops an excuse to turn his place over and loot it themselves under the guise of gathering evidence, especially given their habit of then busting the homeowner for whatever their little fishing expedition turns up.

Likewise, he is kind enough to stay the hell out of my business to the same extreme, which I appreciate immensely due to having grown up in rowhome apartments where everyone is in everyone elses business all the time and it's just one big fucked up jerry springer episode from hell all day long.

Now, if he was goin out of town and ASKED me to watch his stuff, anyone layin hand to it would get an assfull of rock-salt, sure, but that's about as far as I'd take it, too old and lazy to chase em, and I just ain't willin to blow someone away over someone elses stuff.

Touch MINE however, and I might not take it so well - I still have recipts for the endless repair work on my Tomos from petty vandalism that cost me nearly half my damn income for a few months of following the cops dipshit advice, but ended completely after taking a somewhat more extreme policy about it.

If yer not ALLOWED to defend it... do you really own it ?

Think about that a while.

I might think Mr. Horn boneheaded and foolish for acting as he did, but as stated, I will not gainsay him acting on his own moral compass without first thinking of how our society would vilify him for even having one.

Few enough still do.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

GEEZER

Thursday, July 3, 2008 2:28 AM

Here's the whole 911 call:

"Keep the Shiny side up"

KHYRON

Thursday, July 3, 2008 4:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I just want to correct an error. He did not go out when he saw them coming over. He went out when he saw them coming out the window.

Horn: He’s coming out the window right now, I gotta go, buddy. I’m sorry, but he’s coming out the window.

Not an error. If you have a quick listen to the link Geezer gave, he said the line you quote at about 5:45, and he goes outside at about 6:40. This is plenty of time for the burglars to come out of the house and move towards his (as seems to have been the case from the other sources I've seen on this).

------------------------------

This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.

CITIZEN

Thursday, July 3, 2008 8:11 AM

Saying "I'm gonna kill them" and then going out and killing them, isn't self defense, it is pre-meditated murder.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Thursday, July 3, 2008 8:45 AM

Joe does not live in CA, but Texas. Texas Law provides that your neighbor's property recieves the same protection your own property does, so Joe is legally responsible for the neighbor's place as much as his own, and equally justified in defending it.

Some above have stated "Mexicans" but I thought it was Columbians, and one had already been deported back to Columbia at least once before.

Joe did the right thing. Too bad more states don't have the same laws.

Did I miss Foster's post? Didn't see one in this thread. Anybody else in this thread a citizen of Kennesaw?

RIGHTEOUS9

Thursday, July 3, 2008 9:55 AM

Corrected,

a premeditated "righteous" kill.

Murder is a legal term that apparently has a far narrower application under Texas law, especially if the victims/"evildoers" who got mowed down were Mexican.

..........

I can see no great good that shooting those two men has done for any of us, wulfenstar included. That it provides the rush it does for some people is a little frightening. It's a climax fueled by rage and fear, touted as justice. But lady justice is holding scales is she not, and the penultimate sense of literal "justice" is summed up as "an eye for an eye."

So I doubt very much that people's identification with Mr. Horn is on a cerebral, philosophical level. It comes from a baser place - the reptilian level of our brain.

so I have to say that I think it's ironic that Wulfenstar would point and say, "those people were animals," - translation, "not worth the air they breathe."

I'm estranged by this kind of bloodlust,

by the abiity of some to equate the vlue of stuff with the value of human life,

by the sense of entitlement that would grant these people the role of judge jury and executioner over another person, because they were wronged in some way...

I said it before that we're all animals, but it seems like we could not dehumanize ourselves any greater than to devalue human life by weighing it against a bag of dvd's and a spouse's finest collection of jewelry.

RIVERLOVE

Thursday, July 3, 2008 10:38 AM

My idea is that every time an illegal alien is arrested for criminal activity they should immediately be sent to Vermont. No "case", no trial, no deportation back to Mexico, no prison, no catch & release, etc., just send them immediately to Vermont, and toss them on the streets out of a dumptruck. And why Vermont? Well it is the official home sanctuary for child molesters, child rapists, and child sexual predator murderers; that's why. The 2 groups deserve each other, and so does the pot-brained citizenry who reside in that state and allow this to happen. They are very proud of their blessed enlightenment. ALL child sexual monsters in America know Vermont very well. There's almost no punishment and prison there for them. They get treatment, then they're out in a few months. Meanwhile, it's a pedophile's Candyland. Deviant liberalism run amok.

PIRATECAT

Thursday, July 3, 2008 3:24 PM

Jongstraw, you know your my hero. But I have to disagree there is some bad dudes out there and they will be back. Look I saved a woman and her daugther from being car jack a few years back. I drove my truck right up on him. I wasn't carring at the time. Waiting on the cops. Black chic about 5'3 shows up and of course calls for backup. Never rely on cops. Alot of em are crooked. But lets all have a long weekend and shoot some fireworks.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

KWICKO

Thursday, July 3, 2008 6:20 PM

It's been brought up that maybe the cops were slow to respond because he lives out in the sticks. That, from all appearances, does not seem to be the case. This happened in Pasadena, Texas, which is essentially a suburb of Houston, and lies right across the Houston Ship Channel to the east of greater Houston. I've got friends there, and it's definitely not in the middle of nowhere. Also, from the video I've seen, it appears to be a pretty damned nice area of Pasadena (it's not all nice, or even very much of it, from what I've seen; it's lots and lots and lots of oil refineries and many older houses). The housed shown in the newscasts are of some nice, newer homes that look for all the world like they'd be in an upper-middle-class area, and possibly a gated community. This is NOT the type of neighborhood that one would expect a slow police response time.

PirateCat: You did a good thing stopping that carjacking, and I'm sure you're glad you did it. I'm also sure you're glad you didn't have to kill anyone to stop the crime you witnessed. I don't think Joe is happy he killed these guys; I think he's sorry as hell, but felt he was doing the right thing at the time. Apparently the grand jury agrees, and realizes that he's been through enough.

As for people saying the thieves were "just taking some stuff" or "only stealing DVDs and jewelry" - well, that's not quite accurate. If you've ever been a victim of a burglary, a robbery, a car theft, a carjacking, or the like, you KNOW it's not about the stuff that got stolen - it's about your peace of mind, your security, your mental well-being. It shatters your notions that you are EVER safe, anywhere, and it violates you. Let me put it to you this way:

If you were raped, would you want the guy dead who raped you? If so, WHY? All he was doing was "taking some stuff" from you, right? We all know it's not like that, and most of us would want that rapist dead, and dead right now. And a burglar, a thief, a carjacker, or an armed robber violates you in a similar way. I know that's a stretch, and I agree that rape is worse than burglary by a significant margin, but both of them feel intensely PERSONAL to the victim.

I'm not *happy* that these guys got blown away, but I'm also not going to shed any tears over them. They chose their way of life, and they knew when they chose to be burglars that there was always a chance it would end badly. And something tells me that Joe Horn's neighborhood is probably a lot safer now than it was before this all happened. Thieves have their own networks, and word gets around that certain areas or houses are "easy"; now word is out that this area of Pasadena is "hard".

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

SIGNYM

Thursday, July 3, 2008 7:09 PM

My response was not to what Joe Horn did. Mr Horn expressed regret and ambiguity. With hindsight he might have chosen to do differently. Wulf OTOH feel absolutely no moral qualms about killing people. And he sees himself as the "good guy"!

Quote:
As for people saying the thieves were "just taking some stuff" or "only stealing DVDs and jewelry" - well, that's not quite accurate. If you've ever been a victim of a burglary, a robbery, a car theft, a carjacking, or the like, you KNOW it's not about the stuff that got stolen - it's about your peace of mind, your security, your mental well-being. It shatters your notions that you are EVER safe, anywhere, and it violates you. Let me put it to you this way: If you were raped, would you want the guy dead who raped you? If so, WHY? All he was doing was "taking some stuff" from you, right? We all know it's not like that, and most of us would want that rapist dead, and dead right now. And a burglar, a thief, a carjacker, or an armed robber violates you in a similar way. I know that's a stretch, and I agree that rape is worse than burglary by a significant margin, but both of them feel intensely PERSONAL to the victim.

Been there, done that. In none of the cases did I feel the need to kill.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

MAL4PREZ

Thursday, July 3, 2008 7:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
If you were raped, would you want the guy dead who raped you? If so, WHY? All he was doing was "taking some stuff" from you, right?

OK kwicko - that's full of shit and you know it and you should NOT go there. A rapist damages the victim's body and sanity. Don't you dare compare that to theft, even with your weak disclaimers. You can go buy a new DVD player, you can't pay any amount of money to get rid of the experience of being physically attacked and violated.

If any man tried to rape me I would indeed do my best to kill him - but here's the thing, it would be in protection of myself. This schmoe in TX could have let those losers go, and maybe the booty would have been recovered and brought back the next day. Or he could have shot in the air over their heads and they would have crapped their pants, dropped the loot and ran. It could have worked out fine with no one damaged. He did not need to kill them to protect his own personal self, no matter what the laws of TX say.

My god, if you really think being sexually assaulted is in any way akin to getting your TV jacked, sit back and think about Bruno the prison escapee breaking into your home tonight and bending you over your kitchen table.

Asshole.

ETA: I don't really think you're an asshole. You just shouldn't have gone there.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, July 3, 2008 8:14 PM

Given that I am 100% in agreement with Mikeys last post, I think "going there" is the only way to MAKE it understood.

Remember, the same folk proposing the "it's just stuff" bullshit are the very same ones that used to tell rape victims to "just lay back and enjoy it", yes ?

Do NOT try to say it's not the same thing.

And that criminals DEPEND on that complacency, that learned helplessness and lack of resistance for their success - without which, most of them simply *could not function* as criminals.

It's like the difference between serving a tennis ball to an empty court versus making that same serve with another player there - in the one case, you are *guaranteed* success due to lack of resistance.

Without that assumption of instant submission and cooperation, if every criminal act included the very real risk of bodily harm or worse, we would see a lot less crime.

Do you understand this ?

At the first sign of ANY potentially successful resistance, most criminals will flee, and the ones that do not, being the most dangerous ones, SHOULD be shot.

Due to the explosion of crime cause by such a ridiculous and insane policy, not to mention making so many laws, so many crimes that a normal human being can't even live their life without breaking a handful of them or more a day, the police for the most part do not bother investigating or pursuing all but the most grevious or politically necessary high-profile stuff, and the chance that an officer will be on scene and willing to risk their own neck charging in blindly is infinitesimal not to mention every bit as potentially dangerous as the crime itself.

I still don't think what Mr. Horn did was a good idea, but the plain and simple fact is that we have ignorantly fed into our crime problem by adopting the dual policy of discouraging and outlawing resistance, which has emboldened and encouraged criminal activity by the combination of high payoff and little to no risk.

And now with our current economic situation, we're simply reaping the sown harvest of our own ignorant stupidity, and it's a damned bountiful crop, innit ?

And while violation of ones personal space, privacy and right to own and possess things is not as horrific as a more intimately personal violation, it's a violation all the same with the same set of potentially catastrophic mental effects.

Just because you might not react so doesn't mean so much, people are different, as individual as snowflakes, and I've seen a lot of em pushed to the edge or over it due to such things.

Imagine dealing with someone who's gone into alternating cycles of paranoia and semi-catatonia due to having their apartment trashed four times in a month by a stalker, but since there's no hard proof and the local police fully uncooperative (up to and including accusing HER of trashing the place, yeah, that was supportive..) that her only effective choice involves severing herself from her dwelling, friends, career, etc.

And due to her mental state, having to refuse to teach her to shoot on top of it ?

And yet, she doesn't even know this creep, has never even seen his face or been in personal contact with him, but the end effect is exactly the same, isn't it ?

I do not, will not, accept "allow the victimisation" as a logical, rational choice, because folks...

It ain't, and never was.

-Frem
Reccommended Reading.
http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2008/05/meditations-on-paper-armour
.html

SIGNYM

Thursday, July 3, 2008 8:31 PM

Quote:
Given that I am 100% in agreement with Mikeys last post, I think "going there" is the only way to MAKE it understood. Remember, the same folk proposing the "it's just stuff" bullshit are the very same ones that used to tell rape victims to "just lay back and enjoy it", yes ? Do NOT try to say it's not the same thing.

Murder is the same as rape, which is the same as robbery, which is the same as burglary? Is THAT what you're trying to say? In that case, you've gone off the deep end and into la-la land.

There are at least two reasons why they're not the same: one is that they're not the same from the victims' POV, the other is they're often committed for entirely different reasons.

Burglary is theft when a person is not present. Burglars are usually unarmed. I've been burgled twice... most recently a year ago. In most jurisdictions robbery is theft from a person. I've been robbed as well. In LA County, assault can be verbal, battery is physical (even if the person only touches you, it can be considered battery). I've been assaulted by a guy with unzipped pants who struggled with me over control of my car door. I'm well aware from experience about the distinction between these crimes. You CANNOT tell me they're the same! And although I took action to protect myself I never once thought to kill. Just because I didn't blow someone away didnt' mean I was passive. Frem, YOU know there are any number of way to defend yourself w/o killing.

From the criminal's POV, rape, assault, murder or manslaughter are much more likely to be tied to drugs or some sort of serious psychological/ neurological defect (depression, brain damage etc.) Although you are more likely to need deadly force defense, that it not a deterrent against people who are- basically- off their nut.

Quote:
most criminals will flee

Which is exactly what the burglars were doing when they were shot in the back.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

MAL4PREZ

Thursday, July 3, 2008 8:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Remember, the same folk proposing the "it's just stuff" bullshit are the very same ones that used to tell rape victims to "just lay back and enjoy it", yes ?

Actually, no. Who are these people Frem? Come on, be a man. Don't go waving around some BS fictional lines of some mysterious "folk". Speak for yourself, or shut up.

Quote:
Do NOT try to say it's not the same thing.

You ever been raped, Frem? You know what it's like? If you had a choice between taking it in the ass and watching some punk run down the street with your car CD player in his pocket, are you really telling me that it's all the same to you?

Yeah, whatever. I don't think Kwicko's an asshole. I do think you are. And an idiot. Go ahead, write me up a rant. Again. I won't be reading it, because anyone who values his person the same as he values his little toys and gadgets is completely useless to me.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

KWICKO

Thursday, July 3, 2008 8:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
If you were raped, would you want the guy dead who raped you? If so, WHY? All he was doing was "taking some stuff" from you, right?
OK kwicko - that's full of shit and you know it and you should NOT go there. A rapist damages the victim's body and sanity. Don't you dare compare that to theft, even with your weak disclaimers. You can go buy a new DVD player, you can't pay any amount of money to get rid of the experience of being physically attacked and violated.

That's my point, entirely. BOTH of those attacks damage the victims' sanity, and no amount of money or replacement or recovery of the goods stolen can get rid of the experience of being violated.

Quote:
If any man tried to rape me I would indeed do my best to kill him - but here's the thing, it would be in protection of myself. This schmoe in TX could have let those losers go, and maybe the booty would have been recovered and brought back the next day. Or he could have shot in the air over their heads and they would have crapped their pants, dropped the loot and ran. It could have worked out fine with no one damaged. He did not need to kill them to protect his own personal self, no matter what the laws of TX say.

All of those things MAY HAVE worked, but they also may not have. So far as I know, he had no way of knowing whether they were armed or not, nor what their frame of mind might have been if they were confronted. Would they surrender, or would they shoot first?

Quote:
My god, if you really think being sexually assaulted is in any way akin to getting your TV jacked, sit back and think about Bruno the prison escapee breaking into your home tonight and bending you over your kitchen table.

I think they're akin to each other only in the sense that both of them are violations of your sanctity and your sanity, and that both of them should be resisted, forcefully if necessary.

Quote:
Asshole.

ETA: I don't really think you're an asshole. You just shouldn't have gone there.

Oh, I get that. It IS an uncomfortable conversation to have. I brought it up because I wanted to point out that it's far more than "just stuff" that's being taken from you in either case; it's not the physical theft or the physical attack that leaves the deepest scars - it's the sense of being VIOLATED in the one place where you were supposed to feel safe - your own home.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

SIGNYM

Thursday, July 3, 2008 8:58 PM

Quote:
Oh, I get that. It IS an uncomfortable conversation to have. I brought it up because I wanted to point out that it's far more than "just stuff" that's being taken from you in either case; it's not the physical theft or the physical attack that leaves the deepest scars - it's the sense of being VIOLATED in the one place where you were supposed to feel safe - your own home.

Yes, it might shatter your sense of safety. Or, if you were like me, you might have just said Oh f*ck. Now I gotta repair the damage to my doors (each one was pried at with a crowbar) replace most of my screens and file a friggin' police report.

If I had to comapre the emotional devastation of being burgled or even robbed to having killed someone, I would hope to be more devastated over death.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

KWICKO

Thursday, July 3, 2008 9:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Remember, the same folk proposing the "it's just stuff" bullshit are the very same ones that used to tell rape victims to "just lay back and enjoy it", yes ?
Actually, no. Who are these people Frem? Come on, be a man. Don't go waving around some BS fictional lines of some mysterious "folk". Speak for yourself, or shut up.

Who are these people? Well, Clayton Williams for one. You remember him, right? The guy who just gave John McCain $300,000 for his campaign? The guy who ran against Ann Richards for the Texas Governor's office? The one who told a group of reporters that "The weather's a lot like rape; if it's inevitable, you might as well lie back and enjoy it."

Where or why he ever got the notion that rape was inevitable is beyond me...but that line cost him the Governor's office.

And actually, I *AM* an asshole. :) I think we SHOULD have heated debates about some of these things.

Siggy: After your burglaries, how did you sleep? How long was it before you slept through the night? How long was it before you felt safe in your home again?

Also, it should be noted that a fair amount of burglaries are drug-related, too. There is a class of addict who will do just about ANYTHING to feed their habit.

I don't think Frem's an asshole, and I don't think he equates rape to burglary any more than I do. What we're both TRYING to point out is that any of these invasions shatter your illusions of safety and security, they destroy your dreams of "normalcy" and of the idea that what's yours is YOURS.

As for myself, if you try to steal my stuff, I'll do everything I can to NOT kill you, but also to NOT let you get away with it. If you try to rape my wife, though, I absolutely WILL kill you - if she doesn't beat me to it!

I think Frem was trying to point out that, where criminals are concerned, they try to do a "cost/benefit" analysis. What are their chances of getting caught, versus what do they have a chance to take away if they AREN'T caught. And what they're concluding is that they're far less likely to be caught for burglary (because it's a "victimless" crime) than for armed robbery, and if they ARE caught, they'll get a far lighter sentence for it. And someone like Joe Horn throws a wildcard into their calculations, because he isn't accounted for in their suppositions.

You've asked Frem which he'd choose between ass-rape and losing a CD player. I'd like to put that question to those who almost seem to support some sort of "burglar's rights" - if you were given a chance at getting away with a DVD player or getting shot dead, which would you choose? And would that be a fair bet to take?

Personally, I've never been much for thievery. It just doesn't seem like what you get ends up being worth what you pay - whether that be jail time or being shot. Seems to me that just getting a job and living like you should is a better solution.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

SIGNYM

Friday, July 4, 2008 12:00 AM

Quote:
Siggy: After your burglaries, how did you sleep? How long was it before you slept through the night? How long was it before you felt safe in your home again?

The first burglary was of a router out of our townhouse garage (which was open). I slept like a baby that night. I was more concerend about our *sshole of a neighbor, who's son played gangtsa rap at top volume. He (and his son) were jerks. We called the cops on them several times, and went over as a delgation of neighbors. The kid (who was old enough to be living on his own) got back at us by playing music REALLY loudly when his dad was out. But it all came to a screeching halt when his dad came hoem early one day... heh heh heh....

The second was a robbery. I met the robber in the dining room in the dark at 5 ayem. And altho nothing was stolen, THAT took me a long time to get over!

The third incident was also a burglary. Again- no problem.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, July 4, 2008 2:57 AM

Quote:
Murder is the same as rape, which is the same as robbery, which is the same as burglary? Is THAT what you're trying to say?

No.

I was saying that "allow the crime to happen to you without resistance" is the same dumbass principle in both cases, apparently my point has once again been completely, and I highly suspect deliberately, misinterpreted.

Adopting a policy of not resisting a crime in progress encourages crime.

How is this not getting across ?

And "those people" ?

http://www.cityofmesa.org/police/literature/pdf/faqs_businesses.pdf
http://www.ci.golden-valley.mn.us/publicsafety/robberyprevention.htm
http://www.stpete.org/police/crime_prevention-robbery.htm

How many you need, fifty, a hundred ?

Of COURSE the police don't want folks to resist, if folks defended themselves, they might start asking nasty questions, like what exactly do with need this parasitic, colors wearing street gang FOR, anyway ?

And yes, there are LESS potentially lethal methods of resistance, most of which are radically, drastically less effective, as well.

Like I continually say, that's up to you - but when you bring a firearm into the equation, there's no such thing as firing warning shots, or shooting to wound, not in a crisis situation, it's a simple fire/no-fire decision and you are shooting, not to kill, not to wound or warn, but to stop the threat as immediately and quickly as possible, with the full awareness that you may indeed end the life of the person you are shooting at.

And if yer unwilling to do that, to make that call, you really shouldn't carry a piece, it's not the only solution, simply the most effective, but one should have an awareness of these things (that is where proper training comes in) BEFORE they wind up in such - and I suspect Mr. Horn did not have that awareness and is going to pay dearly for it in secondary emotional trauma.

Quote:
Although you are more likely to need deadly force defense, that it not a deterrent against people who are- basically- off their nut.

I don't agree, several rounds of single O buck, or a trio of Corbins to center mass is about as substantial a deterrent as there is.

As for shooting them in the back, again, lack of training on behalf of Mr. Horn, but once you've made the fire/no-fire decision, whatever side is facing you when the trigger is pulled is immaterial, for more information on the particulars of that you'd be better off listening to Marc McYoung, or Massad Ayoob, both of whom do a far better job of explaining the physical and psych mechanics of that process than I could.

And specifically for missus holier than thou, Mal4...

If you are unwilling to even acknowledge any opinion but your own, go talk to a fucking mirror, cause talking down at folk like you're so superior and then stating that nothing they say has any meaning to you proves you're not interested in discussing the topic at hand, but simply feeding your own Narcissism - you've been well beyond nasty, without provocation, to everyone in this thread who doesn't agree with you, showing your true colors for all to see.

Now, you wanna argue the topic at hand, go on and do it - but if you just wanna verbally flail folk from the safe distance of the internet to make yourself feel better, I suggest you throw your tantrums somewhere else, ok ?

Cause us adults are trying to discuss something here.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

SIGNYM

Friday, July 4, 2008 5:33 AM

Quote:
I don't agree, several rounds of single O buck, or a trio of Corbins to center mass is about as substantial a deterrent as there is.

What I meant was... it won't deter others from the same crime.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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