Screw 'em if they hate us
POSTED BY: 6ixStringJack
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 1, 2008 09:13
VIEWED: 19860
PAGE 30 of 30
Quote:I have no interest in anything Geezer might have to say.
I'll let Geezer speak for himself
AFA agreeing on common points... I'm not going to "frame" my argument in a way that sounds nice to you in order to get your buy-in. We have a fundamental disagreement on capitalism, and to say otherwise is dishonest. As you should know by now, I think you're fundamentally, hopelessly naive about it. Everything that you propose.... well, guess what- we've "been there, done that"... and it's got us to where we are today: royally fucked over. Going back to the past isn't going to help us with the future. It's like my SO says: Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results.
But we CAN agree that corporations have too much power, and we can both help each other reduce that power as much as possible (HA!) until it gets to the point where it's no longer a problem for one of us. At that point, we'll go our separate (and possibly conflicting) ways.
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I have no interest in anything Geezer might have to say.
Hmmm... can't really help pointing out the obvious here...
Quote:
AFA agreeing on common points... I'm not going to "frame" my argument in a way that sounds nice to you in order to get your buy-in.
It's not a matter of framing the argument. It's a matter of convincing someone who disagrees with your fundamental philosphy why it might it might be in their interest to support a common goal.
Quote:
But we CAN agree that corporations have too much power, and we can both help each other reduce that power as much as possible (HA!) until it gets to the point where it's no longer a problem for one of us. At that point, we'll go our separate (and possibly conflicting) ways.
Right, and my point is that your approach directly inhibits that goal. From my point of view, it's not the amount of money or power that the corporations have - it's their ability to corrupt our political system. Our government has become a primary tool of the corporates. Severing that 'bond' is my only real interest.
I don't begrudge companies or corporations that that manage to become wildy successful by providing goods and services that people want. I get pissed off when they achieve, or maintain, their power and wealth through manipulation of the political process. But the "process" is as much to blame for that as the corporations.
Your naivete comes in when failing to recognize that our government drives this kind of collusion as much as the corporations. On one level, they grant specific perks and favored status to corporations. I think you get that. But on the another level, they exact a form of 'tribute' from corporations by coming at them with laws and regulation that the corporations can't afford to ignore. Then the authors of that legislation open their doors and the 'bidding' process begins.
These efforts are naively supported by people who think such regulation will finally bring corporations to heel, not recognizing how they're being played. The net result is expanding government power that demands ever greater "investment" from the corprations it threatens. The regulation you're so fond of is the source of the problem.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:What's obvious? Geezer is dishonest. At this point I've decided it's not in my interest to discuss anything with him simply because I'd have to keep pointing out his dishonesty and it makes for tedious, unproductive discussions. In additon, by not engaging him I don't create a forum for him. So humor me, and point out the obvious 'cause I ain't gettin' it!
Hmmm... can't really help pointing out the obvious here...
Quote:If I have to convince you to support your own goal, which may be in common with mine... do I really want you on my side???? If you can't' find your own self-interest, I'm not sure you'd be a reliable ally.
It's not a matter of framing the argument. It's a matter of convincing someone who disagrees with your fundamental philosphy why it might it might be in their interest to support a common goal.
Perhaps what you really wanted to say was that I need to demonstrate that we DO have a goal in common. THAT makes more sense!
Quote:There is the corruptor and there is the corrupted. The way I see it, you're focusing on the effect and I'm focusing on the cause. The cause of the problem is economies of scale and concentration of capital, which by iteself causes an imbalance of power even without government. If you don't see that point... or you think that wealth SHOULD control everyhting... then we will have to agree to disagree.
Your naivete comes in when failing to recognize that our government drives this kind of collusion as much as the corporations
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So humor me, and point out the obvious 'cause I ain't gettin' it!
Just ribbing you a bit. The 'obvious' is that you're spending quite a lot of time responding to statements you say have no interest in. But mostly just kidding.
Quote:
If you can't' find your own self-interest, I'm not sure you'd be a reliable ally.
I hear ya, but frankly, that's been the attitude of most of the Libertarians I've known, and it's the main reason we never get anywhere. It's actually related to some of the stuff HK was talking about. You can't just lay out 'the facts' and expect people to see their way to a specific conclusion. Not because they're dumb or naive, but because reason isn't a black and white thing.
Quote:
Perhaps what you really wanted to say was that I need to demonstrate that we DO have a goal in common. THAT makes more sense!
I'll buy that.
Quote:
The cause of the problem is economies of scale and concentration of capital, which by iteself causes an imbalance of power even without government.
I can see what you're saying. But wealth and power aren't exactly the same thing. Wealth can buy power, but only if it's for sale. I'm suggesting we take down the 'for sale' sign on government.
I know it's tempting to see money and power as the same thing. But no matter how rich someone else is, they can't force you to do something against your will - not with money anyway. They can only do that by applying force against you - which can only be done legally using the government (through laws, court decisions and eventually armed agents).
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:They can make it fatal to do anything other than what they dictate. Your choice: shell shrimp under slave-like conditions for near-starvation wages, put up with being raped by your supervisor, live in 12-to-room conditions using four beds in rotating shifts... or starve. How does your Libertarian philosophy explain Victorian England?
I know it's tempting to see money and power as the same thing. But no matter how rich someone else is, they can't force you to do something against your will - not with money anyway.
Quote:Whoa, stop right there! Who says they'll only do things "legally"? And who defines legal and illegal anyway? Corporations are famous for applying muscle when it suits them, legally or illegally, economic or otherwise.
They can only do that by applying force against you - which can only be done legally
Without ever firing a gun, Microsoft "killed" all of its competition. Some of what they did was illegal, but they could just have easily done it "legally".
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Sarge- Geeezer is not a Libertarian. You haven't heard a single peep out of him about how "government" should w/draw it's blanket protection from corporations, have you?
But that hasn't been the topic. You assert that capitalism and corporations are evil and should be done away with. I assert that they are necessary if you want to have wealth, whether you redistribute it or not.
Quote:
He's also a profound believer of USA intervention overseas.. He will defend every instance that our troops stepped on foreign soil, including Vietanm and Iraq. I thought foreign entaglements was anathema to Libertarians.
Never heard of Vietanm, although I spent a less than fun year in Vietnam. The problem I have with you and Iraq is your assumption that it's all an evil plot to get the oil. There were probably mistakes made, both in pre-war intelligence, and in post-war pacification. But evil plot - don't think so.
Quote:
He's also rather protective of police.
Well, since most folk aren't allowed to defend themselves, someone's gotta do it.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
...it's all about wealth creation? Yanno, I brought that point up about... oh, 20 posts ago.
Maybe I missed it. Please show me where you explained how a classic socialist economy created wealth.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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there is so much anti-american feelings...here in New Zealand
there are often anti-american jokes
BUT, these same people who bitch and moan about the U.S,
are the first to expect that the Americans will come to our aid if something bad ever happens to us....
I grew up Fiji, and even there, there was some negative feelings
because after 9/11, the American Embassy completely shut down the whole street which they are situated on for security reasons, meaning the shops on that street were of course affected negatively. But really, when we have hurricanes or
floods, or yet another freakn coup, we always go to the US
for assitance
I may not agree with some US politics/laws, but im very
grateful for all your help!
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