Welcome To The Wild West???

POSTED BY: deepgirl187
UPDATED: Monday, April 7, 2025 06:19
VIEWED: 7905
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WULFENSTAR

Friday, June 27, 2008 7:48 PM

We are getting off topic....

Or maybe not....hmmm. Is it possible that the right to carry concealed brings with it the neccesity of speaking and acting civily?

RUE

Friday, June 27, 2008 7:54 PM

Better to have people shooting each other in the street 'cause they thought someone dissed 'em. Yeah, that's a step up. And real polite, like, too.

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

KWICKO

Friday, June 27, 2008 8:13 PM

Quote:
We are getting off topic....

Or maybe not....hmmm. Is it possible that the right to carry concealed brings with it the neccesity of speaking and acting civilly?

Could be. As Heinlein said, 'An armed society is a polite society."

Back to topic.

M

WULFENSTAR

Friday, June 27, 2008 8:35 PM

True. Let us get back to topic.

I have a question: Why did the "Wild West" fail?

I mean, there was plenty of land, and very little laws. Everyone was armed.

How did it turn from that almost utopian society to this?

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, June 27, 2008 9:02 PM

You want specifics ?
Easy enough.

"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves...and include all men capable of bearing arms."
-- Richard Henry Lee: From (Additional letters from the Federal Farmer, at 169, 1788)

"... who are the militia, if they be not the people of this country...? I ask, who are the militia? They consist of now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
-- George Mason: From Elliot, Debates at 425-426:

"The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
-- Patrick Henry: From 3 Elliot, Debates at 386.

"No free government was ever founded or ever preserved its liberty, without uniting the characters of the citizen and soldier in those destined for the defense of the state.... Such are a well regulated militia, composed of the freeholders, citizen and husbandman, who take up arms to preserve their property, as individuals, and their rights as freemen."
-- From State Gazette (Charleston), September 8, 1788

"The militia, who are in fact the effective part of the people at large, will render many troops quite unnecessary. They will form a powerful check upon the regular troops, and will generally be sufficient to over-awe them"
-- Tench Coxe, An American Citizen IV, October 21, 1787

The "Militia" of the United States is us, all of us, any of us, both willing and able to pick up and use a firearm at all - this was universally understood and acknowledged by both Federalist and AntiFederalists to a point where it was generally assumed.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, June 27, 2008 9:16 PM

Quote:
Wow, seems like he's saying "okay, here's some crazy shit that could NEVER happen," and describing the present state of affairs exactly.

That's why I posted it - to show how dead-bang correct the AntiFederalist were on almost every single point.

Go back and read through both sets of papers and keep firmly in your mind that all of this was written 200 and some years BEFORE the current state of affairs, when it wasn't so bloody painful obvious that things WOULD come to this...

Except that some folk DID see it coming, tried to point it out to folk, and got nothing but mockery and scorn for the doing - I will point out to you also that even as recently as I was in high school, we were taught about the Federalist Papers, but didja know, somehow VERY conspiciously missing altogether was ANY mention what-so-ever of the Anti-Federalist papers, not in any of my textbooks, classes or other materials were they so much as even mentioned, and I was taught that the Federalist Papers were a simple explaination of the Government our "wise" Founders were laying out for us...

Completely missing was even the question of any opposition to the idea, and noteably absent was any mention of Anti-Federalists, which, when I turned to encyclopedia brittanica and learned of it, caused the initial explosion in my history class between me and the teacher which lead to my interest in actual history versus the distorted propaganda taught in public schools under the guise of historical education.

One of my flakier hobbies is collecting old history textbooks and comparing them to each other and reality to watch not only how our history is distorted in the teaching, but how even the level and type of distortion changes based on the political climate of the times.

Care to lay odds on whether or not current middle and high school history classes admit that we killed Mossedeigh, propped up the Shah, trained Osama and supplied weapons to Saddam ?

Learning history is best done entirely as a DIY matter, don't take nobody's word for it, not even mine, cause, yanno... people lie.

See my signature line for why I feel that is so important.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

KWICKO

Friday, June 27, 2008 9:25 PM

Thanks, Frem, for the wonderful and illuminating quotes.

It's not a well-known fact, and it's hard for many to believe, but IT IS NOT ILLEGAL to own a silencer, a sawed-off shotgun, or a fully-automatic machinegun in this country. It's perfectly legal, IF you jump through the proper hoops and fill out the necessary paperwork. And pay the proper bribes - er, I mean FEES. Those legal hassles are enough to make me uninterested in pursuing such weaponry, but your average gang-banger or meth-dealer has no such problems - he gets the weapons, and if he gets busted, he was already a major criminal to begin with, so it's really no skin off his ass to have one more weapons charge against him.

Anyhoo, I'm glad the Court reaffirmed The Second, but it scares me that it was a 5-4 vote.

Now,

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

KWICKO

Friday, June 27, 2008 9:32 PM

DeepGirl:

Sorry for the ugly turn the thread took. We're making efforts to get it back on track!

Also,

Quote:
Haven't heard anything recently, but I live on the other side of the now.

While I think this might be a simple typo, I'm also struck by how surreally, poetically beautiful it is. I find myself wishing I lived on the other side of the now.

Peace,

Mike

NVGHOSTRIDER

Friday, June 27, 2008 9:36 PM

Had to poke my head into the RWED for this. I'm not sure you could call post European America Utopia. It might have been better suited term for the Americas before European settlements. The "Old West" was a dirty place many people weren't suited for. Imagine how many people simply disappeared. And the answer to the question "How did it fail" should be fairly simple.

Population and lots of it. Dividing the land with boundries and fences. Claiming ownership on something that belonged to all people and animals on the Earth.

And you have to remember that any armorment was uaually utilitarian and not ornamental status symbols for all of society to see. There are still open carry laws within the state that allow me to carry anywhere but State, County, Municipal, and Federally owned buildings. Private owners need to ask me to remove my sidearm and may deny me service if I don't comply. As long as the weapon is in plain sight and I am not under the influence of drugs or alcohol and not endangering the wellbeing of myself or others it is perfectly legal for me to carry in the open in most parts of my state.

Why don't I carry you may ask? Because I believe in the relative peace and comfort of my home and feel no need to display whatever "power" I may posess by owning and carrying a firearm. If I choose to carry than I will take the required courses and classes for a Concealed Carry Permit. Despite the fact I really could give two shits about all the sensative people moving here from the Libtard state to the west, I feel confident in my right to walk down the street with my 1911 riding on my hip. I choose to not carry a weapon for the simple fact that I am safe and secure in my home area. The right to do so when things do turn out bad means much more to me than using a firearm as a phallic reprsentation as it has been so given in modern society.

As for militia, Citizen is right in his wording. But the implication of citizen armies relied much on the personal weapons of the men of the day. Despite technological advances many of the weapons used during the war at the documents inception were personal weapons of the citizen soldier. I completely agree with licensing and taxing of destructive devices, class II and III weapons and devices (silencers and the like), and background checks at weapons purchases. Many weapons are kept out of the hands of illegal immigrants, sex offenders, perpetrators of domestic violence, mentally instable and defective individuals, people with restraining orders; and are accessible to law abiding citizens of this great land.

In all I believe that firearms in the hands of law abiding American citizens is a great thing. More people should be capable of effectively protecting themselves, their homes, and to a lesser extent their property. But also implied is a government that works for and fears its citizens discontent.

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Being an artist means not having to avert one's eyes.
-Akira Kurosawa

DEEPGIRL187

Friday, June 27, 2008 11:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
DeepGirl:

Sorry for the ugly turn the thread took. We're making efforts to get it back on track!

Also,

Quote:
Haven't heard anything recently, but I live on the other side of the now.

While I think this might be a simple typo, I'm also struck by how surreally, poetically beautiful it is. I find myself wishing I lived on the other side of the now.

Peace,

Mike

No worries, Kwicko. Posting on the RWE is always a toss of the dice in terms of arguments and such. And I meant to say other side of the state, but somehow it seems much cooler that way.

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"This is my timey-wimey detector. It goes ding when there's stuff. Also, it can boil an egg at 30 paces, whether you want it to or not, actually, so I've learned to stay away from hens. It's not pretty when they blow."

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