Screw 'em if they hate us
POSTED BY: 6ixStringJack
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 1, 2008 09:13
VIEWED: 19860
PAGE 27 of 30
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Geez, you're a bastard...
Nope. I got my parent's marriage license right here...
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"All are guaranteed a minimum standard of living, and income is redistributed over a person's lifetime as Sweden is socialistic and seeks to narrow income gaps."
But you're talking about the government of Sweden.
Read what Wikipedia says about the economy.
"Sweden is an export-oriented market economy featuring a modern distribution system, excellent internal and external communications, and a skilled labour force."
"Sweden has always provided solid support for free trade (except agriculture), free immigration, and strong property rights."
"Sweden's industry is overwhelmingly in private control; unlike some other industrialized Western countries, such as Austria and Italy, publicly owned enterprises were always of minor importance."
CIA World Factbook describes the economy as: "Aided by peace and neutrality for the whole of the 20th century, Sweden has achieved an enviable standard of living under a mixed system of high-tech capitalism and extensive welfare benefits. "
Sounds like capitalists to me.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:Capitalism is hardly unique in this regard. Most systems utilise private ownership, so I don't think we can use private ownership as a defining characteristic of Capitalism.
Originally posted by rue:
Though the better definition would be to say that the means of production are privately owned.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So Geezer, any comments in whether socialism or capitalism produces a better lifestyle?
Depends. The socialism Rue that described above and that you apparently agree to, is a governmental function - a social welfare system - not an economic one.
A socialist economy is one in which the government directs the kind and nature of production. This is not what Sweden, for example, has as an economy.
Maybe you're talking about a Socialist Market economy, like China's?
In any case, you can't determine whether a particular capitalist or socialist economy will produce a better lifestyle without seeing the particular economy, and seeing the particular government, that goes with it.
Overall, I'd venture to say that countries with capitalist or free-market economies do better than those with socialist or socialist market, i.e. state-controlled, economies. Note that this is seperate from what type of goverment they have; democracy, constitutional monarchy, social welfare, etc.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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I don't get your post. In one case you say that a communist government and a communist economy are inextricably tied. In the other case you seem to be saying that socialism is untied from government?
I guess the one nice thing about capitalism is that it crashes in a big way every several decades, reminding us all that concentrating capital is not a good thing.
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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By the WIKI definition, any commune could be called socialist. Even conservative, strict, religious communes such as the Shakers, the Oneida Community, or the Harmony Society (Rappites) could be called socialist. There was a little hitch with what most people currently think of when thinking of socialism. (WHAT ??!!! It's NOT godless communism imposed from above, intent on turning people into slaves of the state ??!!!) So I changed the definition slightly. Rather than saying 'the community' controls the distribution of wealth, I reframed it as 'the government' controls the distribution of wealth - and in a democracy like Sweden, it is a form of community action. However, it doesn't necessarily have to be the government performing the will of the community. It could be the community directly.
Not only does the government control the distribution of wealth, up to this point it owns a fair bit of the means of production. So I would say Sweden, in addition to be socialist, is also NOT particularly capitalist, either.
"Get a headache in Sweden and the pills you buy will be from a government-owned pharmacy. Buy shares and you’ll be making a transaction through a stock market part-owned by the state.
Whether it has to do with posting letters, making phone calls, placing a bet, buying a bottle of wine or spending an evening at the opera, the national authorities are an important shareholder – if not outright owner – of the firms involved.
With stakes in 55 groups employing 190,000 people, the state’s huge corporate presence forms part of the famed Swedish model, a dovetailing of state and society whereby a large government and high taxes are mixed with liberal economic policies to provide Swedes with a high standard of living.
To the envy of many, it is working well. The economy grew at 4.4% in the third quarter of 2006, inflation is low, wages are rising and consumption increasing."
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I don't get your post. In one case you say that a communist government and a communist economy are inextricably tied. In the other case you seem to be saying that socialism is untied from government?
In the strict sense of socialism, the government and the economy are inextricably tied, since the government decides what and how much will be manufactured, what prices will be charged, what wages will be paid, etc.
The Swedish version of "Socialism" has little or nothing to do with deciding what or how much the business side of the economy produces, the prices at which it sells, etc. Their version is more concerned with social welfare, not business. Utilities and other services are run by or provided by the government. Not 'socialism' in the classic sense at all.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Not only does the government control the distribution of wealth, up to this point it owns a fair bit of the means of production.
Three quotes from Wiki, some I've used before.
"Sweden's industry is overwhelmingly in private control; unlike some other industrialized Western countries, such as Austria and Italy, publicly owned enterprises were always of minor importance."
"Sweden has achieved an excellent standard of living under a mixed system of high-tech capitalism and extensive welfare benefits."
"The Swedish government has announced that it will privatise a number of wholly and partly state owned companies. "The income from these sales will be used to pay off the government debt and reduce the burden of debt for future generations. The Government's ambition is to sell companies to a value of SEK 200 billion during 2007-2010.""
Interesting that your quotes "Get a headache in Sweden..." are from an LA Times article titled "Sweden Moves Towards Privatizing Companies"
Here's some more quotes from the article:
"Reinfeldt does not say the Swedish model needs fixing; the plan is rather a reflection of his government’s ideological belief that the state should not participate in businesses that can be run by the private sector.
His government has announced a list of six companies in which the state’s stakes will be sold: They include V&S, one of the world’s top 10 alcoholic beverage concerns; TeliaSonera, the Nordic region’s largest telecommunications system; Nordea, the biggest Nordic bank; and OMX, the stock market and trading technology company.
These will be followed by many more, assuming Reinfeldt’s government can secure a second four-year term. Future sales could include stakes in power companies, railways, logging operations, airlines and pharmacy chains."
http://articles.latimes.com/2007/feb/05/business/ft-sweden5
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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I think we need to recognize that there is nothing either more or less natural about capitalism than there is about communism, socialism, or any other 'ism'. They're all rules PEOPLE make up for how they will relate to each other and how resources will be apportioned. In a really strict sense, any economic forms and any government forms are ALL socially-created human structures.
So it still comes down to - what do you want to end up with ? Do you want to end up happy, well-educated, healthy and prosperous, like the Danes ? Or continue on the current path for the sake of a 'better' ideology ?
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So it still comes down to - what do you want to end up with ? Do you want to end up happy, well-educated, healthy and prosperous, like the Danes ? Or continue on the current path for the sake of a 'better' ideology ?
While the Danes may have a high per-capita GDP ($47,700 vs. US $41,800), remember that they pay close to 50% of that in taxes. Their literacy is 99%, same as the US. Average years of schooling for adults is 9.7 (US is in #1 with 12). Life expectancy is 77.96 years (US 78).
This is interesting. The poorest 30% of the Danish population pays 14.1% of taxes collected(US 6.3%). The middle 40% pays 37.2% (US 28.4%). The top 30% pays just 48.7% (US 65.3%, #3 in the world behind France and Ireland.)
Looks like Denmark may not work out any better than Sweden.
Edit to add: Forgot happiness. US cannibus use 12.3% - Denmark 4.02%. Yep, we're happier.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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