Screw 'em if they hate us
POSTED BY: 6ixStringJack
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 1, 2008 09:13
VIEWED: 19860
PAGE 26 of 30
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
You don't have to be a government or university to "get" an fMRI, you can prolly buy one (or indeed many complex technologies) from nationalized industries - which are not corporations in my sense of the word.
So we're back to "When I use a word,” – said Humpty Dumpty, - “it means what I want it to mean". Maybe you should come up with a better term than 'corporation' since your sense of the word doesn't agree with most everyone elses.
Quote:
Okay, so corporations aren't necessary. That's good to hear. Now, the question is, does their utility in some areas (cheap production) balance their dis-utility in other areas (impoverishing all of their workers, causing economic busts thru concentration of capital)?
Impoverishing all their workers? Might that be a bit of an exaggeration?
Quote:
Also, I point to the roughly 4 billion people for whom corporations are NOT a major player.
Yep. the 4 billion with the lowest standard of living.
Quote:
Apparently you do not know your communist theory! In theory, under communism the state is supposed to "wither away".
I know communist theory, I have also seen communism in practice. Instead of the state withering away, it became the controlling force in every aspect of life. In East Germany, 10% of the population worked for the Stasi.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
That would be wonderful!
Yep. If the cradle you bought from the co-op breaks and injures your child, you can try to sue, and try to collect from, every co-op member individually, since the co-op isn't legally considered a person responsible for their product.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:So, you're back to strawmanning again? How do YOU know what my sense of the word is? Did you bother to ask, or are you just intent on defending "capitalism as you know it"?
So we're back to "When I use a word,” – said Humpty Dumpty, - “it means what I want it to mean". Maybe you should come up with a better term than 'corporation' since your sense of the word doesn't agree with most everyone elses.
What I mean by "corporation" is the "United States version". Since different laws apply in different nations I simply wanted to be clear that I was talking about the kind of corporation that we're most familiar with.
Quote:Umm, it's not like we have the highest standard of living Geezer. We're not exactly an advert for our own brand of corporatism. I know it's hard to believe but it's true.
Yep. the 4 billion with the lowest standard of living.
Quote:Well, see, there ya go! A government work program!
In East Germany, 10% of the population worked for the Stasi
Quote:Are you telling me that you can't imagine a setup in which a cooperative can be considered as an entity w/o giving it "human rights"? I know you're not that stupid Geezer, but you're in typical form: caviling, nitpicking, and strawmaning from the sidelines.
Yep. If the cradle you bought from the co-op breaks and injures your child, you can try to sue, and try to collect from, every co-op member individually, since the co-op isn't legally considered a person responsible for their product.
So let me give you something to posit: Since you've already admited that corporations aren't necessary, tell us... WHAT is is that you find so appealing about corporations in their USA version that you would advocate their current form?
Oh, and BTW- Have you thought of anything positive to say about the USA yet? Just curious, since you're always griping about criticism and yet... you yourself haven't said anything positive.
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
What I mean by "corporation" is the "United States version".
The Corporation for Public Broadcasting? Harley-Davidson? Ben & Jerry's? Gibson Guitars? They're all corporations. How about partnerhips and limited liability companies?
Quote:
Umm, it's not like we have the highest standard of living Geezer. We're not exactly an advert for our own brand of corporatism. I know it's hard to believe but it's true.
Where did I say 'we' have the highest standard of living? But people in countries with an active capitalist economic system do have higher living standards, on average, than those with non-capitalist systems.
Quote:
In East Germany, 10% of the population worked for the Stasi - Well, see, there ya go! A government work program!
SO you think informing on your neighbors is a good thing to do? Why am I not surprised?
Quote:
Are you telling me that you can't imagine a setup in which a cooperative can be considered as an entity w/o giving it "human rights"?
Sure. And I can imagine a setup in which a corporation can be considered as an entity w/o giving it "human rights".
Quote:
WHAT is is that you find so appealing about corporations in their USA version that you would advocate their current form?
I don't particularly find anything appealing about them other than what I've said before. They produce a wide range of products which meet consumer wants at a reasonable price. I also have much more confidence that they will do so than I have in your proposals for alternatives which currently either fill small niches in the economy, or have to be propped up by government to exist at all.
Quote:
Oh, and BTW- Have you thought of anything positive to say about the USA yet?
Diversity. Bourbon. Jazz. Blues. The First Amendment. The Second Amendment. The Philly Cheesesteak. National parks. Local government. The availability of multiple - sometimes almost ridiculous - choices in almost anything I want to buy. Factory 5. Dissent. The fact that you, SignyM, can bash the government unmercifully and not disappear (try that in China). I dunno. How many pages you want to read? The ability of immigrants to come here with a dream and build a future for their family. The fact that millions more want to get into the US than want to get out. Baseball. Volunteer military. Volunteerism in general. Folks whose house is already underwater stacking sandbags to save someone elses house.
Pick away, Siggy.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Diversity. Bourbon. Jazz. Blues. The First Amendment. The Second Amendment. The Philly Cheesesteak. National parks. Local government. The availability of multiple - sometimes almost ridiculous - choices in almost anything I want to buy. Factory 5. Dissent. The fact that you, SignyM, can bash the government unmercifully and not disappear (try that in China). I dunno. How many pages you want to read? The ability of immigrants to come here with a dream and build a future for their family. The fact that millions more want to get into the US than want to get out. Baseball. Volunteer military. Volunteerism in general. Folks whose house is already underwater stacking sandbags to save someone elses house.
Geez, you're a bastard, but I gotta admit, it's hard to argue with anything you just listed.
By "Factory 5" I assume you're talking about Factory 5 Racing, yes? Verrrrrrryyyy sweet cars.
Now I've gotta go eat. For some strange reason, I'm craving a Philly Cheesesteak...
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia
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Quotable Geezer quotes:
"At least you're consistant. Any time anyone says anything less than disparaging about the US you gotta jump up with your litany of horrors. I don't believe that I have ever seen you post anything at all positive about your country.
Admit it, Siggy. You're the hater."
"But folks who are unremittingly, stridently critical of everything that happens in and relating to the US, who never have a positive thing to say about the country, and who insult and demean anyone who thinks that, with all its faults, it's a pretty good place, aren't helping to improve anything. They really are just hating, and add nothing positive to a search for solutions to the problems."
"You just insult, demean, obfuscate, lie, redefine words and concepts to fit your agenda, and - when all else fails - bullshit."
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:It was a JOKE, son!
SO you think informing on your neighbors is a good thing to do? Why am I not surprised?
Quote:So how do you define the EU, which has a slew of nationalized industries and central banks, highly regulated industries which pay both corporate taxes and VAT (similar to our sales tax but typically 15 %), strong government wage/ hour regulations, etc? Capitalist? Socialist?
active capitalist economic system do have higher living standards, on average, than those with non-capitalist systems.
Quote:Why... this describes our corporations to a "T"!
or have to be propped up by government to exist at all
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Diversity- cool
Bourbon- Scotch
Jazz- meh
Blues- OK if "Rhythm &.."
The First Amendment- you bet!
The Second Amendment- eh. But important.
The Philly Cheesesteak- Pizza
National parks- too bad Bush is letting them go to pot
Local government- You haven't seen mine, have you?
The availability of multiple - sometimes almost ridiculous - choices in almost anything I want to buy.- meh
Factory 5- It's a car?
Dissent- YOU? LIKE DISSENT? HA!
The ability of immigrants to come here with a dream and build a future for their family.- Time to shut the door!
The fact that millions more want to get into the US than want to get out- Unless they're from the EU, China, Canada, or a host of other nations that aren't dirt-poor.
Baseball- Too slow. Insert
Volunteer military.- mmmm. needs some thought.
Volunteerism in general.- Thumb's up!
Folks whose house is already underwater stacking sandbags to save someone elses house.- That too.
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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I had some family medical things to attend to over the last few days that involved a lot of ER and doctor time, which is why my replies have been so short. Here it is: Sweden is socialist.Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism Capitalism is an economic system in which property is owned by either private individuals or a corporation.
Though the better definition would be to say that the means of production are privately owned. Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism Socialism refers to a broad array of ideologies and political movements with the goal of a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to control by the community.
To rephrase this to be more specific to modern countries, "... control by the government."
Sweden has a government-run central bank by which it directs the economy. Health care is government-paid by 20 counties and 1 municipality, and these localities own their hospitals and health care facilities outright. These councils also provide for in-home care. A 1-year maternity leave is paid for by the national government. It also pays for quality public child care, all 1-5 year old children are guaranteed a place in a public day-care facility. School between the ages of 6-16 is compulsory and paid for by the state. More advanced education is paid for by the state but is not compulsory. Public transportation covers all of Sweden. Sweden also has extensive public housing. It has a nationally subsidized guaranteed minimum standard of living. The necessities of life are either paid for or provided by the government either on the basis of need or universally. The money comes from personal and business taxes, a publically-controlled redistribution of wealth.
In sum:
"All are guaranteed a minimum standard of living, and income is redistributed over a person's lifetime as Sweden is socialistic and seeks to narrow income gaps."
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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That's what I thought:
capitalism: the means of production are owned by individuals.
Communism: the means of production are owned by the worker (but in practice "the state")
Socialism: income distribution is controlled by the State
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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