It's called "torture" Mr. Bush

POSTED BY: Ghoulman
UPDATED: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 15:55
VIEWED: 24944
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SIGMANUNKI

Sunday, May 9, 2004 5:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FlyinFree:
...
My arguments about lack of choice, and the need to fight dirty, outside the rules, was for the CIA only, not the military occupation.

...

No, what the CIA did was not wrong and their war is a dark horrible one that never ends. Their job is the toughest and they should never be lumped in with Bush (they told him not to invade) or the sick bastards in those pictures (they do what they have to to fight terrorism and espionage).

The idea that if the CIA played nice the rest of the world would do the same or go easy on them is naive.

I think it has become clear that we are talking about different things and agree on the issues that the thread is primarily about.

Now onto your CIA specific stuff.

I have no issues with intelligence gathering or counter intelligence or counter espionage as long as it's within the "rules" of morality.

For instance, if the CIA basically tortured someone for information that wasn't really important then they are no better than terrorists and should be punished accordingly.

But, if that person was known to have or was known to have knowledge that would lead to finding out were a nuclear device in a city that would save 10's of thousands (or millions) of people, go for it. It's a matter of the greater good.

And this war on terror will never be over. It's going to be up to us to figure out a civil way to do it without all of this big brother crap that the US wants the rest of the world to buy into (and we aren't thank god!). ie biometrics. Hey people it doesn't work 1/3 of the time. That doesn't exactly spell confidence to me. So, I'd like it not in my passport thank you very much.

I think we should look at some countries that have been dealing with this sort of thing for years if not decades. I think we can look at pretty much any country in the EU right now and learn a lot. Germany for instance still has extremely strict privacy laws and yet has been known to help the US by intelligence sharing in the war on terror.

I'm just saying that we should be reasonable about these things instead of going off half-cocked and making laws that we'll regret later (ie in the US the patriot act *shiver*).

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

COWARD

Sunday, May 9, 2004 6:36 PM

Quote:
This is a bold faced untruth. There were some weapons given to Saddam but not the chemical weapons in your inferance. Those were devloped by Saddam based on a small medical sample give for medical research only.

I am sure VX gas can be used in a variety of medical purposes... aren't you?

Here maybe you should learn the not so very subtle difference between chemical and biological weapons.

Chemical weapons are created by mixing several chemicals (hence the name...) to form a toxic gas or liquid. They have been used extensively by many nations (especially in WWI (Mustard Gas)) including the US. It would be very difficult to reverse-engineer the toxin from a finished sample. Thus Saddam couldn't have gotten the weapons from anywhere but from a country which defied international law and hordes chemical weapons, unless he developed them himself from scratch. As far as I know the US is the only country in the world that admits to having a chemical weapons (correct me if I'm wrong (but back it up please!).

As far as we know biological weapons have never been used anywhere. A biological weapon would be some form of virus or bacteria, usually a very potent and deadly one (Ebola, Marburg), hence the name biological. If the virus were infective you would obviously need only a very small dose to do maximum damage. Since most pathogens used in biological weapons do not server any useful medical prupose, except the development of immunisation (which would be against the interest of the military) I highly doubt ANYONE would be stupid enough to give a sample of this to Saddam. Again the US is the only country to develop these weapons.

Now let me ask you another question:
Have you read the 11000 (not 1000 if I remember correctly) pages document? Have you personally assessed whether the weapons were dismantled or not?
I think I will not have to wait for your answer so the following: most experts agreed that there were gaps in the document, but it also showed how, when and where a lot of the weapons were destroyed. Iraq did release further documents later on which still didn't explain where ALL of the weapons went. Most likely because Saddam sold them somewhere to make a quick buck and build more palaces and didn't want the UN to know.

Now the line "there could possibly have been WMD" is not a very good justification for war, when we know that the US in fact, without a shadow of a doubt has WMD (nuclear).

As for this thread:

The torture performed on these prisoners (now apparently there seems to be at least one case of rape surfacing) is appaling beyond belief, but I cannot believe that this is representative of the US forces behaviour in Iraq. Those responsible should be tried in courtand sentenced harshly.

The media should continue digging until they have found every case, Bush should make a formal apology and the US should allow the red cross to inspect prisons immediately.

I also think that Rumsfeld should have the decency to resign, even if he didn't know (which I highly doubt) and didn't have anything to with it, simply for failing to prevent it.

Unfortunately it seems like none of this damage control seems to be happening, which will make the situation in Iraq that much worse.

Coward

SIGNYM

Sunday, May 9, 2004 8:03 PM

Doran, where do you get your info from? Maybe you should look at the CONGRESSIONAL TESTIMONY that detailed which equipment, cultures, chemicals, and information was given to Saddam. I'm not going to google it because I know you won't even read it, but suffice it to say that Scy Commerce Baldridge and Scy State Schultz testified about the vats, computers, chemicals, lasers, lyophilizers, centrifuges, 70 different cultures (of anthrax, botulism etc), "crop spraying" helicopters and so forth that were shipped to Iraq. BTW, the cultures were NOT medical research cultures- those are different strains. And of course the picture of Rumsfeld warmly shaking Saddam's hand has been widely distributed. That doesn't include the "ground truth" that the USA supplied to Iraq on its use of chemical weapons against Iran.

DORAN

Monday, May 10, 2004 4:25 PM

Sorry, it wasn't VX in was a biological agent, and lot's of it. I didn't have to read the the 1000's of pages in their entirety; all I had to do was parse through it using a search engine to determine what wasn't there. Other experts have read the entire diversionary "document" and have commented similarly but I did check on my own. The 11000 report was largely empty of any real data. Like I said Saddam was stauling for time.

I believe some of the WMD were destroyed.. but not all especially in light of the confessions about the WMD into Jordan that I mention.. The perps reported to have gotten the biological agent from a "perfume factory" in Iraq.

I'm not convinced that more isn't out there either. Heck we've found enough evidence that Saddam was manufacting WMD and breaching resolutions without finding any more to make the case.

The war started in the 80's .. what we have now is a continuation resulting from a breach of the staying resolution. Saddam needed to be removed.

At one poimt Saddam was an uneasy ally. We did provide some convensional weapons.. but the VX was not provided.. the Biological samples he got were part of a medical research program and were not offered to Saddam.. They were offered to a University. The fact that Saddam used them to produce a weapon is more condemnation of him not us.

Saddam defied international law every day. He routinely shot at our aircraft with patroled for the UN in the no fly zone. He had illegal commerce with France, Russia, and Germany in the form of the Food For Oil Scandal.

DORAN

Monday, May 10, 2004 4:45 PM

"That doesn't include the "ground truth" that the USA supplied to Iraq on its use of chemical weapons against Iran."

No, we didn't.. and you can find anything you want to find on the internet.. there is always someone who will post something that says what you want it too. It looks so convincing on the internet too. Even the smelliest long hair can be an expert and look really official. Heck even our enemies can put up an official looking conspiracy theory web page and pretend to be in-the-know.

Heck, I read the other day a site that was claiming personal knowledge that most of the congress was Jewish. They had names and everything. Never mind the fact that the official census of the congress shows only 11 are Jewish; these experts on their official looking page knew the “truth”.

Did we assist Saddam in his fight against Iran? Yes, did we give him botulism and anthrax for the purpose of using against Iran? No, we didn't. I have heard assertions and read fantastic accounts that claim that we did.. but they were without substantiation by official documentation or witness. On the other hand there is documentation that show research botulin and other agents for a medical university.

"BTW, the cultures were NOT medical research cultures- those are different strains"

O contrare, They were medical samples.. I'm aware there are some people who claim they weren't but there was other testimoney that stated that they were.

SIGNYM

Monday, May 10, 2004 4:48 PM

Ummm... and the point of this is???? That we really didn't know what Saddam was up to? That all of the sudden Bush II became aware of "dual use" equipment, but back then it was OK to ship "crop spraying" (wink wink) helicopters?

No, the USA did not ship VX, but it DID ship the three components needed to make VX. Since this was all coming from US companies (like Dow) it had to be Okayed by Baldridge. At the same time, the USA killed a UN censure regarding Iraq's use of chemical weapons on the Kurds.

The Administration DID know what Saddam was doing. We helped them calibrate how much gas they needed to use on Iranian troops in order to get a good kill ratio.

DORAN

Monday, May 10, 2004 4:50 PM

"I also think that Rumsfeld should have the decency to resign, even if he didn't know (which I highly doubt) and didn't have anything to with it, simply for failing to prevent it."

Rumsfeld Should Stay
By WILLIAM SAFIRE
5/10/04
WASHINGTON — Donald Rumsfeld has been designated by Democratic politicians as the scapegoat for the scandal at Abu Ghraib prison. But any resignation would only whet their appetite to cut and run. The highly effective defense secretary owes it to the nation's war on terror to soldier on...

"... in the [post 9/11] panic of the winter of 2001, Rumsfeld was one of the few in power concerned about prisoners' rights. Some now demanding his scalp then supported the repressive Patriot Act. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/10/opinion/10SAFI.html?n=Top%2fOpinion%
2fEditorials%20and%20Op%2dEd%2fOp%2dEd%2fColumnists

DORAN

Monday, May 10, 2004 4:53 PM

"Ummm... and the point of this is???? That we really didn't know what Saddam was up to? That all of the sudden Bush II got hot and bothered about "dual use" equipment, but back then it was OK to ship "crop spraying" (wink wink) helicopters?"

This is a snide and unfair accusation.

SIGNYM

Monday, May 10, 2004 5:03 PM

Quote:
Heck, I read the other day a site that was claiming personal knowledge that most of the congress was Jewish. They had names and everything. Never mind the fact that the official census of the congress shows only 11 are Jewish; these experts on their official looking page knew the “truth”.

And this was....???

But, at least we're getting somewhere!

OK, you show me yours, and I show you mine! (sources, that is heh heh heh).

But, I'm going to lob a diversionary grenade inot the fray because I have to do some googling and I have to go bug two of my daughter's many doctors today, so...

Who ELSE were we shipping chemical weapons components to? HINT: It wasn't Iran, but it does begin with an "I".

'Fraid I'll have to come back to this later. Sorry Doran, I have a few really important things to do today. TTUL.

ZORIAH

Tuesday, May 11, 2004 10:57 AM

Topic: Weapons of Mass Destruction

Speaker: Rice, Condoleezza - National Security Advisor

Date: 9/28/2003

Quote/Claim:
"On nuclear there was dissent on the extent of the program and how far along the program might be. How much had he gone to reconstitute? But the judgment of the intelligence community was that he had kept in place his infrastructure, that he was trying to procure items." [Meet the Press transcript]

Fact:
The UN reported on 9/8/03 that Iraq was not capable of pursuing an active nuclear weapons program after 1991. The report said “"No indication of post-1991 weaponization activities was uncovered in Iraq.”

Knight Ridder reported that CIA officers "said President Bush ignored warnings" that his WMD case was weak. And Greg Thielmann, the Bush State Department's top intelligence official, "said suspicions were presented as fact, and contrary arguments ignored." Knight Ridder later reported, "Senior diplomatic, intelligence and military officials have charged that Bush and his top aides made assertions about Iraq's banned weapons programs and alleged links to al-Qaeda that weren't supported by credible intelligence, and that they ignored intelligence that didn't support their policies." - Knight-Ridder, 6/13/03, 6/28/03; CBS News, 6/7/03

"A major intelligence report, called a National Intelligence Estimate, or NIE, two months later said Iraq could make a nuclear bomb "within several months to a year" only if it acquired plutonium or uranium from abroad. Without that huge assist, it would take until 2007 to 2009, declassified portions of the document said." - Knight Ridder, 2/6/04

Topic: Weapons of Mass Destruction

Speaker: Rumsfeld, Donald - Secretary of Defense

Date: 9/19/2002

Quote/Claim:
“[Saddam has] amassed large, clandestine stockpiles of biological weapons, including Anthrax, botulism, toxins and possibly smallpox. He's amassed large, clandestine stockpiles of chemical weapons, including VX, Sarin and mustard gas.” [Source: DOD Web site]

Fact:
“Iraq did not have a large, ongoing, centrally controlled chemical weapons program after 1991… Iraq's large-scale capability to develop, produce, and fill new CW munitions was reduced - if not entirely destroyed - during Operations Desert Storm and Desert Fox, 13 years of UN sanctions and UN inspections.” - Bush Administration Weapons Inspector David Kay, 10/2/03

Topic: Weapons of Mass Destruction

Speaker: Bush, George - President

Date: 10/7/2002

Quote/Claim:
"We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical and biological weapons across broad areas. We're concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVs for missions targeting the United States." [Source: White House Web site]

Fact:
According to The Washington Post, Robert Boyd, the U.S. Air Force's senior intelligence analyst, has concluded that evidence uncovered in Iraq confirms the Air Force's prewar assessment that Iraq had been developing unmanned aerial vehicles (or drones) to fly reconnaissance missions, not to deliver WMDs. - Washington Post, 9/27/03

Topic: Weapons of Mass Destruction

Speaker: Bush, George - President

Date: 5/29/2003

Quote/Claim:
“We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories.” [Source: White House Web site]

Fact:
“We have not yet been able to corroborate the existence of a mobile biological weapons production effort. Technical limitations would prevent any of these processes from being ideally suited to these trailers.” - Bush Administration Weapons Inspector David Kay, 10/2/03

Topic: Weapons of Mass Destruction

Speaker: Bush, George - President

Date: 7/14/2003

Quote/Claim:
"And we gave him a chance to allow the inspectors in, and he wouldn't let them in." [Source: White House Web site]

Fact:
"UN weapons inspectors worked in Iraq from November 27, 2002 until March 18, 2003. During that time,

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