What If No Iraq Invasion ?
POSTED BY: Jongsstraw
UPDATED: Monday, September 18, 2023 03:55
VIEWED: 6880
PAGE 1 of 6
If Bush and his boys hadn't been in such a zealous rush to invade Iraq 5 years ago, where do you think the US would be today?
... Militarily
... Economically
... Diplomatically
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
The US would be about, what $4 trillion less in debt, and still be respected on the world stage?
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
'Bbout 4500 members of the US Military would still be alive, and about 25,000 unwounded and not needing medical care.
Lots of military equipment wouldn't be worn out with 5 years of deployment in the desert.
Retention and recruitment would be a lot simpler.
The budget would be closer to balanced.
Gas might cost $ 4.00 a gallon.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I don't know if America will, or can ever get back "to normal", but I love to think about it. The 911 attack on American soil was a big event for sure, but unfortunately the team in Washington DC of Cheney & Rumsfeld were not intelligent and wise ...they chose to elevate it way beyond what it was. They were totally inept in planning our response(s). They came up with Step 2... The Battle of Iraq. This on the heels of an unfinished and dubious engagement in Afghanistan. In the 7 years since 911, I can't help to think that "another" team of political leaders would have had us in a much better situation than we are now.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
If Bush and his boys hadn't been in such a zealous rush to invade Iraq 5 years ago, where do you think the US would be today?
... Militarily
... Economically
... Diplomatically
Militarily? Some would say "stronger than ever", but I rather doubt that. BushCo has continued the same kind of privatization of our armed forces that was begun under Reagan and really gained steam under Clinton, where they'll sell any and all military operations to the lowest bidder, leading to the rise of "corporate armies" such as Blackwater. I *do* think we'd be a whole helluva lot better off in regards to our veterans and their health care, though, but that would be a simple matter of not having 30,000 or more grievously injured soldiers straining our VA healthcare system to the breaking point and beyond.
Economically? Well, the LOW price tag put on the war is $6 trillion dollars. Of course, most of that hasn't been spent yet - it's still to come in long-term health care for wounded vets - but a good chunk of that money is lost to our economy, and gone forever. Who can say what the impact of the war has been on gas prices, but the fact of it is, oil was less than $32 a barrel when Bush took office, and less than 8 years later, it's more than $127 a barrel - a QUADRUPLING in price. And they almost hung Carter when gas went over a buck a gallon... And by the way, hang on to your hats - the mortgage crisis isn't the coal mine caving in; it's just the canary dying. The real cave-in is still coming. More and more people are driving vehicles that are well above their pay grades, and are paying down 6-, 7-, and even 8-year notes on their cars - cars that are worth less and less as the price of gas goes higher and higher. How cheap can you get a Chevy Tahoe for now? How 'bout a Ford Exhibition - er, I mean Expedition...
Diplomatically? Well, have we ever been at a lower point in terms of our international prestige? People the world over, our "friends" as well as our "enemies", feel free to now tell us to basically "Fuck Off" whenever and wherever they please, because they know full well that there's not much of shit we can do about it, given our situation in this quagmire of a war. Our leader is seen as "all hat, no cowboy" by every thinking person in the world, and they realize there's no use in trying to engage this White House in anything remotely like serious diplomatic talks. At this point, it seems that the rest of the world, not just the American people, is willing to wait it out until this lame duck is finally long gone, and good riddance. Meanwhile, all we can do is try to let the Israelis pick our fights for us...
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I don't know if America will, or can ever get back "to normal", but I love to think about it. The 911 attack on American soil was a big event for sure, but unfortunately the team in Washington DC of Cheney & Rumsfeld were not intelligent and wise ...they chose to elevate it way beyond what it was. They were totally inept in planning our response(s). They came up with Step 2... The Battle of Iraq. This on the heels of an unfinished and dubious engagement in Afghanistan. In the 7 years since 911, I can't help to think that "another" team of political leaders would have had us in a much better situation than we are now.
Also, bear in mind that Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush, et al, completely ignored anyone with any real military expertise, unless they were telling the Administration only what it wanted to hear. Even David Petraeus, who wrote the field manual on counterterrorism, was forced to back off his estimates and his numbers, until they more closely matched what the political leaders in Washington (none of whom had ever served in combat; most of whom had never even served in uniform, or had joined and then not shown up) said they should be.
At every turn, the real military leaders were underfunded, underutilized, and cut off at the knees, and then THEY were the ones blamed for how it all went wrong...
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
If Bush and his boys hadn't been in such a zealous rush to invade Iraq 5 years ago, where do you think the US would be today?
... Militarily
... Economically
... Diplomatically
Depends on 'why didn't invasion happen?'
I mean 'no invasion in Spring of 2003' could just as easily have been 'invasion late-spring 2003, invasion early summer 2003, etc.'
Here's my take. In the Spring of 2003 the US led coalition was joined by a strong European alliance including thousands of French troops and massive worldwide demonstrations against Saddam Hussein in nearly every nation. Russia lent its diplomatic support and China displayed casual disinterest. A new UN resolution passed without veto stating to Saddam 'leave Iraq' and authorizing 'all possible force' if they continued to refuse to comply. Saddam flees Iraq.
Fall of 2003 Bathists fall to peaceful Democratic movement. Free elections. Foriegn investments make Iraqi oil industry viable. Lower oil prices stabilize world economies. Bush is elected to a second term and we all live happily ever after.
OR...Bush is forced to back down by Democrats in Congress and French/Russian/German political pressure. France and Russia run the table on us fracturing NATO. Russia dominates its neighbors and France/Germany dominate the EU. Bush loses to Kerry in 2004. Kerry foriegn policy weakness leads to 2005 Russian invasion of Georgia. Energy crisis as Russia turns off the gas pipelines to Europe. China invades Taiwan. Japan begins military buildup. Venezuala supports insurgencies throughout the Americas including increasingly agitated immigrants in the US. Energy crisis causes economic collapse of first Europe, then America, then South America, India, and Japan. Turmoil spreads rise of violence. Terrorists spark war between Pakistan and India...nuclear war follows. Tel Aviv destroyed in nuclear blast traced to Iran. Isreal falls to Arab (Iraq, Syrian, Jordan, and various terrorist groups) assault resulting in massacre of nearly all the Jews (but not before)...Isreali nukes destroy all Arab capitals (including moderate, neutral states). Turmoil sweeps the globe. Food riots in the US. Energy riots in the US. Immigration riots in the US. Race riots in the former US. Interstate fighting in the former US. Nuclear conflict between Russia and China. Russia and former EU. Russia and former US. China and Japan. North and South Korea. Madagascar and the Democratic Socialist Republic of Sri Lanka (who knew they had it in them...), and we all die unhappily never after.
What if's can go in any direction you want. Hell, I can give you a timeline that says the Iraq invasion was called off because of alien invasion and another where is does not happen because Iraq...never existed (literally...there is not even land there...the Persian Gulf is a much larger Persian Sea) and a really odd timeline in which the invasion did not go off because no one considered the international dateline (in that one everything is shifted by a single day directly resulting in the mass extinction of all life in approximately 347 million years and the cancellation of American Idol after a single disappointing episode).
H
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:There's a couple of historic regimes that have done the same thing.
Originally posted by Kwicko:
At every turn, the real military leaders were underfunded, underutilized, and cut off at the knees, and then THEY were the ones blamed for how it all went wrong...
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
10 years us a " zealous rush " to war ?
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:The Rush to the latest war with Iraq wasn't even 10 months.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
10 years us a " zealous rush " to war ?
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME