No Knock Warrants... Cop = Judge, Jury & Executioner
POSTED BY: 6ixStringJack
UPDATED: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 00:57
VIEWED: 11141
PAGE 2 of 2
Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:Quote:
Aid or assistance
Willfully aids or assists in, or procures, counsels, or advises the preparation or presentation under, or in connection with any matter arising under, the internal revenue laws, of a return, affidavit, claim, or other document, which is fraudulent or is false as to any material matter, whether or not such falsity or fraud is with the knowledge or consent of the person authorized or required to present such return, affidavit, claim, or document; or
Neither his website, nor video, did any of this:
1) aid, assist in, procure, counsel, advise
2) the preparation or presentation of a return, affidavit, claim, or other document.
And there was never any charge or conviction that his website or video did any of this.
I find it interesting that all of you seem to assume and conclude that his website and video must have violated this law, or they wouldn't have been shut down--without ever having seen any evidence at all. And despite the fact that no authority ever even accused his website or video of being illegal.
If you could post some of your friend's documents, we could get a better idea. As it is, I'm just going on the average case against someone promoting the 861 scheme.
All I have now is your paraphrase of his site: "If you read the Internal Revenue Code carefully, you will see that the original intent of the federal income tax in 1913 was to tax very specific sources of income, not all sources of income as they claim today. Go read the law and decide for yourself". Language like this is classic Section 861 protester. Courts have ruled it promoting tax avoidance for years and years, especially when it is packaged and sold to others.
You're doing the same thing your friend did with Section 861. You're reading and interpreting the law in a way which does not stand up when compared to cases previously adjudicated under that law.
As to the fact that your friend wasn't charged; like I said, the IRS tends to cut folks some slack first time out, and the presecutor has some discretion as to what charges to file. I'd suspect they had plenty of evidence to file promoting tax avoidance but chose not to.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:"His belief" and "his interpretation" are not the same thing as advice for preparing tax documents.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
We do have evidence. We have the court memorandum and other documents that attest to his belief in a fallacious justification for tax evasions and that the website and video expounded on this interpretation.
It is dangerous to make no distinction between statement of one's belief and advice to others on a particular choice and action.
"I believe in God, and our president should be Christian." Does that mean I am helping you form a PAC to establish a theocracy?
"I believe Bush is an idiot, and the sooner he goes, the better." Am I helping you overthrow the President?
"I believe Firefly is the greatest show on earth." Am I helping you prepare a Firefly screening?
If one's statements of belief/opinion is the same thing as helping someone else commit certain actions, then we'd be safer not stating any opinion at all that is contrary to government positions.
Hey, isn't that one of the main characteristics of fascism?
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Quote:Did you hear him whining? He isn't whining. *I* am.
Originally posted by Fletch2:
now he's whining about it.
Quote:FACT: Our opinions aside, no authority has charged him with or proven illegal content. FACT: The court cannot assume it was illegal without due process.
HE says there was nothing illegal in it and you just parrot that but YOU don't know and to be honest HE probably doesn't know.
Quote:I categorically do not believe that and never made any remarks to that effect. I believe you have misinterpreted whatever I said that led you to conclude this.
I find it ironic that even you agree that he probably didnt have the legal smarts to defend himself or to propery evaluate the deal
Quote:He wasn't caught. He mailed letters to the IRS and several other tax authorities, not only telling them what he was doing, but asking them to please prosecute him. He encouraged his readers to mail copies of those letters. He wanted his day in court, he got it, and then made a deal to spend less time in prison so his family won't have to suffer any more than they have to.
When he was caught ...sounds like someone who never expected to be tried and when he was pannicked.
Boy Fletch, you sure made a lot of false assumptions from very little information.
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Quote:Do you have citations, because I beg to differ.
Originally posted by Geezer:
Language like this is classic Section 861 protester. Courts have ruled it promoting tax avoidance for years and years, especially when it is packaged and sold to others.
All cases of conviction I am aware of involved people who either actively helped prepare tax documentation of some sort or gave "how-to" tax documentation advice (as in "This is how you avoid taxes.")
Simply saying, "The original intent of the IRC was not to tax all income. Go read the law and decide for yourself." is not illegal. In fact, I am so sure of that *I* will say it.
The original intent of the IRC was not to tax all income. Go read the law and decide for yourself.
Now someone, please prosecute me if that was illegal. Hero, Geezer, Finn, please feel free to report me.
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Quote:Here you go:
Originally posted by Geezer:
If you could post some of your friend's documents, we could get a better idea.
http://www.theft-by-deception.com/
There's his video. I believe someone else is selling the video now.
Here is the video free on the internet:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7521758492370018023
The website was just a written version of the same content, a bit more tedious to read.
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Not at all. The record shows that he was given advice as to how to challenge the legality of 861 in court. He chose instead to break the law. When that happened he took the deal rather than do all the time. Now that seems odd to me because if he was REALLY wanting to do time to highlight his opinion then surely he would want the sentence as agreegous as possible. Also he did everything he could to delay going to jail and tried to determine the jail he went to...
Sounds like a really commited martyr to me...
Let me tell you about people. People tend to present every incident so that it paints them in the best light. Let me tell you about Tessa and Bob (names changed to protect the guilty.) When I was in college there was a girl named Tessa, she was pretty, blonde, a bit of a flirt and the kind of person that thinks you either love her or hate her. Derick, a friend of mine was besotted with her and they got enguaged for 3 months. At the end of that time they broke up and Tessa moved in with Bob. At that time Tessa made it clear that you were either a friend of Derick or of hers, since I stayed with Derick I ended up on the enemies list.
One night Bob got drunk and started hitting on the girl I was with. She told him to P*** off but he just became abusive. I told him to step away and he did, Bob was almost a foot shorter than me and even drunk I think he'd realised that his banter had crossed the line. Nothing ever came of it and I forgot about the incident completely.
Now years later I was speaking with a mutual friend who eventually asked if I was really that drunk the night Bob had beaten me up? That surprised me, because I had never been in a fight with Bob.
It transpires that word had got back to Tessa that Bob and I had been in a public argument. Now obviously Bob wasn't going to tell her he had been flirting with another girl, so he said I'd insulted Tessa, that he'd asked me to step outside and had successfully defended her honor in a fist fight. Tessa, delighted, had passed that along which is how I heard of it.
In retelling stories people paint themselves in the best possible light. "I got drunk and flirted with another girl" becomes "I defended you in public."
Your friend is not a neutral witness.
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Quote:There goes another assumption.
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Now that seems odd to me because if he was REALLY wanting to do time to highlight his opinion then surely he would want the sentence as agreegous as possible.
He did not want to do time. He wanted his day in court, which is not the same thing. He believed that there was a chance the jury would acquit him, and he wanted to take that chance. There have been 4 persons charged and acquitted for the 861 issue since Larken's trial, so he was not entirely wrong that there was a chance.
When he lost the gamble, he chose to mitigate the costs of that gamble. For him, the tax issue is everything. He didn't much care about the free speech issue. He's never complained about the deal, to my knowledge.
As I said, *I* am the one who saw the deal as an example of forcible suppression of oppositional speech, and whining about it.
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"As I said, *I* am the one who saw the deal as an example of forcible suppression of oppositional speech, and whining about it."
Why, again ? He made his stand, took a chance, and got what he very literally bargained for. (Not seeing the force here, it was an agreement he voluntarily entered into.) Don't you think he's adult enough to run his own life ? Make his own decisions ? Accept the results of those decisions ? Or do you feel like you have to be behind him, second-guessing and harping all the way ?
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:Quote:Here you go:
Originally posted by Geezer:
If you could post some of your friend's documents, we could get a better idea.
http://www.theft-by-deception.com/
There's his video. I believe someone else is selling the video now.
Here is the video free on the internet:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7521758492370018023
The website was just a written version of the same content, a bit more tedious to read.
Yep. Classic 861. "You don't have to pay taxes on your income and here's why." The Government does consider this selling and/or promoting a fraudulent tax avoidance scheme. These same arguments have been around since the 50's at least, and pop up again every few years. Lots of folks have gone to jail for doing exactly what your friend was doing.
Here's a Justice Department release about some of those recently sent up.
http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/news_theswamp/files/summary.htm
BTW, does your friend have any idea of how many folks who bought into his idea ended up in trouble with IRS?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
I don't mind debating my interpretation of the facts, but I am unsettled by the inconsistencies in YOUR two interpretations. Which is it? Are the two issues (speaking out against the income tax and failure to file) related?
All they have to prove is that he made money and didn't file. How he made his money is not relevant to THAT charge.
Your saying that if he made money by selling videos that advocate against the income tax then the govt. must prove the videos advocated against the income tax. That is simply not so. What he was selling is not relevant to the case.
Quote:
If only only one action was charged and convicted in court, and the other action not addressed, are you allowed to coerce the defendant into being punished for both actions through a sentencing deal?
Yes.
Think Domestic Violance. If you are charged and convicted of beating your wife, the Judge can, as a condition of the sentencing order or probation, make an order forbidding contact with the victim. Abusive contact such as telephone harrassment, witness tampering, menacing, stalking, etc are all seperate offenses which were not charged. Once convicted the Judge has the power to put you in jail or on probation, the Judge can craft the sentencing order in a very broad fashion to avoid a repeat of the charged offense OR ANY OTHER offence.
You'll find many probabtion orders include a general 'obey all laws for x-number of years'. So you get convicted of tax evasion and get 'obey all laws for 2 years' then 18 months later you drive drunk...it violates your probation for the tax evasion even though the two cases have no relation whatsoever.
I know you don't like it. Hmm...maybe you should video yourself not liking it, sell those videos on a 'not liking it website', not report the income, get yourself convicted, then you can go to jail while steadfastly refusing to remove your website or show remorse for your crime. That should make you feel better until the govt. confiscates your computer equipment as criminal tools or you meet your new roomie Bubba makes you his bitch (either way the govt gets you in the end).
You sound like this little old lady I convicted today. Perfect driving record, 66 years old, walker and oxygen. She ran off the road in a terrible rain storm because she could not see her turn and turned too soon. Charged with Failure to Control. I said...honost mistake, accident, you accidently went off the road, no real harm, perfect record...plead guilty and I'll waive the fine, have a nice day ma'am. She refused. She NEVER lost control of her car, she said. It went exactly the way she wanted it to go...it just went too soon (for the turn). She refused to plead guilty, told her story to the Magistrate who found her guilty of Reckless Operation (not RecOP the crime, but rather finding her guilty of "recklessly" failing to control...little provision that if they make a "reckless finding they can suspend your license) because her defense was that she INTENTIONALLY ran off the road. Big fine and suspended license. All could have been avoided by a little common sense and compromise and listening to a nice guy prosecutor like myself.
She was wrong but could not admit it and it hurts far worse then it has to when you refuse common sense and there's no law says you have to like it. Your friend understands (and agrees), he may not admit it to you...but when it mattered he folded his tent and that says it all.
H
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Do you have citations, because I beg to differ.
Off the top of my head: US v. Rose 05-101-01 (US Dist Ct. for ED of PA)
Quote:
The original intent of the IRC was not to tax all income. Go read the law and decide for yourself.
Now someone, please prosecute me if that was illegal. Hero, Geezer, Finn, please feel free to report me.
Wow, those must have been really short videos.
Saying..."The original intent of the IRC was not to tax all income. Go read the law and decide for yourself." Is fine.
Charging $19.99 for saying..."The original intent of the IRC was not to tax all income. Go read the law and decide for yourself."...and not reporting the income is a crime. A very ironic crime.
Hmm...the original intent of the Army was to fight the British, since we are not fighting the British the Army was illegal. The original intent of Pizza Hut was Pizza, so the hot wings I had last weekend were unconstitutional (and, like other violation of due process, tasty). The original intent of Firefly was to be a TV show...so everyone should throw out their unconstitutional copies of Serenity.
H
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"As I said, *I* am the one who saw the deal as an example of forcible suppression of oppositional speech, and whining about it."
Why, again ? He made his stand, took a chance, and got what he very literally bargained for. (Not seeing the force here, it was an agreement he voluntarily entered into.)
Also not seeing the "suppression of oppositional speech" since he remains free to say what he wants to whom he wants on any subject he wants.
Its just a time, place, and manner restriction same as if he wanted to hold a parade or start shouting his tax opposition in the middle of a crowded theater (not as much fun as shouting 'fire' but still quite disruptive).
H
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Quote:Citation please? Where are all those court cases showing how merely explaining the 861 argument is considered fraudulent tax avoidance promotion, even when no tax advice is given?
Originally posted by Geezer:
The Government does consider this selling and/or promoting a fraudulent tax avoidance scheme.
Quote:This case was about failure to file. It says nothing about the defendant nor the website violating Section 7206(2) of the IRC.
Originally posted by Hero:
Off the top of my head: US v. Rose 05-101-01 (US Dist Ct. for ED of PA)
You are all clamoring about how this website is illegal in and of itself for 7206(2) violations. I'd like to see proof.
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Quote:No. I am saying if the govt wants to shut down his website for "Possession of Criminal Enterprise" or some such thing, they should have charged him with it, proven it in court, and had him convicted by a jury. Then they could have ordered him to shut it down instead of offering a coercive backdoor deal without doing any of the work.
Originally posted by Hero:
Your saying that if he made money by selling videos that advocate against the income tax then the govt. must prove the videos advocated against the income tax.
If his website was illegal, they should have proven that it was illegal in court. Unilaterally deciding that his speech was illegal without due process, and coercing the defendant to terminate his website is operating outside of the constraints of both criminal law and constitutional law.
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Quote:Except the website is not an offense. It is speech protected under the First Amendment.
Originally posted by Hero:
the Judge can craft the sentencing order in a very broad fashion to avoid a repeat of the charged offense OR ANY OTHER offence.
It is a crime, you say?
1) If it is, doesn't the judge have to prove it is criminal before having the power to wave it away like any other crime?
2) If it is not proven in court to be criminal, should a judge have the power to unilaterally decide that this speech was criminal, include it under his purview, and wave it way?
-------------------
I think everyone is getting distracted by the content of the website. So let's imagine for a moment the website was not about taxes.
Let's say the website was about the war in Iraq. The author says he believes it is legal for soldiers to refuse to fight in an illegal war like the current one in Iraq, and he explains why. He makes a video and sells it. And he does not file tax returns on his income from the video or his medical transcription business.
After conviction, the judge offers him a more lenient sentence if he took down his war protester website and video.
1) If his war protester website was criminal, should it not have been included amongst his charges?
2) If the war protester speech wasn't proven to be criminal in court, should the judge be allowed to unilaterally decide the speech on the website was criminal without due process?
3) If his war protester speech wasn't criminal, should the judge have been able to make him take down legal, protected speech (not an offense, mind you) in exchange for less time in prison?
4) Is an offer to take down war protester speech in exchange for less prison time for a separate offense not coercion?
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But that's not what happened. He used the website to run a business and earn income that he then didnt pay tax on. That made it a criminal enterprise. Then he was offered a deal that he chose to take in exchange for a lighter sentence.
Imagine your friend was an alcoholic who killed someone in a drunk driving incident. Driving while intoxicated is illegal, killing someone while intoxicated is illegal, drinking is not. Now suppose he appeared genuinely contrite at trial so the judge offers a deal, if he agrees to go into AA and stays sober he'll go easy on him. Now drinking is not a crime but it's obviously a contributory factor. Now the guy has two choices, he can take the deal and shave a few months off his sentence or he can serve his time.
Now drinking is not illegal the judge doesnt have to convict him of drinking (and cant actually) whether or not it's legal doesnt enter into the DEAL. The judge says in effect "stop doing legal act X which contributed to illegal act Y and we'll go easy on you, deal or no deal?" The drunkard could still refuse or he can take the deal and be happy.
In this case the guy made money off a website peddling bogus taxation advice. That advice was contributory to the guy failing to file, just like booze made the drunk driver drunk. As part of the deal the judge said "vollentarily stop doing this and we will take that as a sign that you are sorry and we can give you a lighter sentence.
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Quote:Good god. The only words that are true in that sentence were "guy" and "website." Do you guys not read anything I write?
Originally posted by Fletch2:
In this case the guy made money off a website peddling bogus taxation advice.
FACT: Website made no money.
FACT: Website did not peddle anything.
FACT: Website offered no taxation advice.
FACT: Website did not cause him to not file, so your whole analogy is neither here nor there. (He chose not to file first, then started the website.)
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CTS
I think the issue is if the judge has discretion, and I believe the answer is yes. The cooercive circumstance came about b/c your friend broke the law and was found guilty, which is on him. And since your friend took the deal, I suspect the judge offered him something he valued over his website. In that regard, the judge did him a favor.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Website promoted a video he sold for money as such it was part of the money making process. All advertising loses money unless people pay you to show your ad, ie never. To say "the advertising made no money" is true, the advertisng however helps you to make money on the thing that was advertised.
He admitted that he sold video tapes effectively advertised by the website.
He offered taxation advice, he was just to chicken S*** to call it that. He pussyfooted around the wording trying to avoid a legal definition of giving advice.
The website advocated a theory he later used as a bogus defence in court. That theory is contribuory to the crime he was convicted of. That's why the Iraq war analogy doesnt fly. He was convicted of tax evasion and ran a tax evasion advocacy website... You are the only one here that doesnt see a connection.
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Citation please? Where are all those court cases showing how merely explaining the 861 argument is considered fraudulent tax avoidance promotion, even when no tax advice is given?
It's been several years since I was involved with tax protestors so I don't have one off the top of my head. As I noted before, usually first timers just get prosecuted for tax evasion, even if they also peddle their 'opinions'.
Here's a link to the Justice Department's press releases concerning tax evasion schemes going back to 2001. Have fun coming up with ways that none of these cases quite exactly match your friend's scheme.
http://www.usdoj.gov/tax/taxpress2006.htm
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
FACT: Website made no money.
Doesn't matter.
Quote:
FACT: Website did not peddle anything.
But you said earlier in this thread that he was selling his video. was it sold off his website or door-to-door?
Quote:But the video he was selling did. It stated the usual 861 arguments on taxability of income, and indicated that they were the true interpretation. If his site had a link to a .pdf of the video's text, like the link you provided above, then he sure was providing tax advice on his site.
FACT: Website offered no taxation advice.
Quote:
FACT: Website did not cause him to not file...He chose not to file first, then started the website.
The order in which he did it is irrelevent.
And once again, how many folks got hung out to dry by the IRS for following your friend's 'opinions'?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:What is more to the point is none of them match your assertion that there are years of court rulings that merely stating the 861 position is considered "promotion" in violation of 7206(2).
Originally posted by Geezer:Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Citation please? Where are all those court cases showing how merely explaining the 861 argument is considered fraudulent tax avoidance promotion, even when no tax advice is given?
...
Here's a link to the Justice Department's press releases concerning tax evasion schemes going back to 2001. Have fun coming up with ways that none of these cases quite exactly match your friend's scheme.
http://www.usdoj.gov/tax/taxpress2006.htm
I've exhausted every way I can think of to explain my position. Obviously none of you are convinced and will ever be convinced, so like everything else, we're going to have to agree to disagree.
6ix, I am very sorry for hijacking your thread, and for no good reason either.
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
What is more to the point is none of them match your assertion that there are years of court rulings that merely stating the 861 position is considered "promotion" in violation of 7206(2).
I've exhausted every way I can think of to explain my position. Obviously none of you are convinced and will ever be convinced, so like everything else, we're going to have to agree to disagree.
Your friend was not 'merely stating' the 861 position. Aside from failing to file and pay taxes based on his opinion - for which he could have found voluminous refutation if he'd done any research somewhere other than tax protester sites and books - he was selling a video that encouraged other people to take a position which is in conflict with years of both government clarification and court decisions.
You can try to clarify your position all day long, but your opinion flies in the face of estalished case law and regulation. Your friend was encouraging people to file fraudulent tax returns, or not file at all, in violation of the law. He's lucky that he wasn't charged with this, probably due to the kindness of the prosecutor.
Your argument is like someone saying their understanding of the law is that killing someone during the commission of a robbery isn't against the law, and then selling a video explaining how robbers can use this 'loophole' to get away with murder. It doesn't matter what your understanding is if case law and regulation agree that it's still murder.
I would venture to guess that your friend didn't just come up with his 861 arguments out of thin air, but instead got them from some other tax protester. That's the usual way.
For the third time, BTW, how many folks did your friend get in trouble whth the IRS by peddling his opinion. I notice you're kind'a hesitant to say.
I admire your loyalty to your friend, and I think you're right in saying that we'll never agree. You believe what you want to believe, but be careful about buying this guy's ideas about income tax. They're trouble.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:But that is EXACTLY what happened. The only thing I changed about the above war protester website/failure to file story was the content of the website.
Originally posted by Fletch2:
But that's not what happened. He used the website to run a business and earn income that he then didnt pay tax on. That made it a criminal enterprise. Then he was offered a deal that he chose to take in exchange for a lighter sentence.
1) If the website were criminal regardless of content, then my changing the content of the website would not be an issue.
(Imagine the situation if the speech were something you didn't really hate. We all find it easy to think of speech we hate as criminal, that it should be illegal anyway, even if it weren't. This time it happened to speech you don't care for. But what if next time, the same situation happened to speech you do care for?)
2) If the website were criminal because of its content, then this charge should have been proven in court. Hero confirmed that even Possession of Criminal Tools needs to be tried in court.
3) Short of being proven in court, no one here has shown that any content in the video applies to Section 7206(2). You guys have flung that accusation, but without any substantiation.
4) Geezer claims legal precedence that this content has been ruled as applying to 7206(2). But again, there is no substantiation.
If you guys cannot distintinguish between statement of belief and criminal solicitation, then one day this is going to happen to a statement of belief you DO agree with. You are going to say, "I believe in X" or "X is true" and someone will turn that into criminal solicitation.
I'm watching this country go down in flames, and I'm watching you guys fan the flames.
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Quote:I ignored the question on purpose. It is so full of shit I thought it was rhetorical.
Originally posted by Geezer:
For the third time, BTW, how many folks did your friend get in trouble whth the IRS by peddling his opinion. I notice you're kind'a hesitant to say.
I have no idea how many people bought his video or went to his website, or who they are. I have no idea how many of those people did not file. If any of these people did not file their tax returns, I have no idea if they didn't file because of the video or because of another website or some other reason. To date, I have not heard anyone say, "It's not my fault! I got tricked into this by Larken Rose!" If they did say it, I wouldn't know if they were lying or telling the truth.
Wesley Snipes made this accusation of his tax preparers. But they actually prepared his taxes, per 7206(2).
Beyond asking me to be psychic, the question is monumentally misleading. Unless Larken specifically said, "This is what YOU should do with your taxes," he is not legally responsible for those people's actions.
Once you start blaming other people's actions on one's statements of beliefs, once you start confusing "I believe it is legal to smoke marijuana" with someone smoking marijuana, you will no longer have free and protected speech.
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:Quote:Imagine someone pointing a gun at you and says, "Stop critizing Bush or I'll put you in prison for X number of years." If you complain that there was forcible suppression of oppositional speech, my response might be, "Shit Jack, you should have stuck by your principles and gone to prison. Why did you allow your free speech to be muzzled? There was no violation of free speech here."
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
He allowed his free speech to be muzzled.
Life isn't fair and I think we've all been in situations that we've had to swallow our pride or let go of our principals in a certain situation. Some of us are stronger and have more resources to fight for what's right while others don't have the constitution or resources and have to play dead when their backs are up against the wall. I certainly agree with you that what happened here is devious and I don't believe necessacerrily that his site or video were illegal either. Problem is, just because he was working within the legal framework doesn't mean that he can't be pushed around by a government who holds almost all of the cards. If he was serious about this, he should have kept paying his taxes and kept the whole thing legal while spreading his word. That way, even if he was bringing attention to himself, it would be next to impossible for them to do what they did to him. What your friend did was foolish, and then when the shitstorm came down on him he cashed in his chips and walked away and screamed that his free speech was being trampled on.
Where he is at now though, he has no one but himself to blame.
Both parties here, regarding the website and the DVD, did nothing illegal. He gave them an open doorway to their wrath and when the time came he only proved that he didn't have the eternal vigilance that is necessary to secure and retain our freedom. I seem to remember a figure of somewhere around $500,000 of income with taxes unpaid. The guy isn't exactly poor and should have had legal representation that would have told him to stick by his guns.
He was getting busted hard for not paying his taxes and he certainly wasn't getting any sympathy because of his views on the matter of taxation. He was likely looking at the maximum prison time and fine because of this and they cut him a break if he shut down operations they didn't approve of.
It wasn't trampling free speech and I still think that he is well within his right if he opened up shop again non-profit. If free speech is what really matters to him, and not making a buck off of it, this shouldn't be a problem for him.
Sorry I can't agree with you here. I know we agree on most things.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:I want to make it clear he never screamed about his free speech being trampled upon. He is also not complaining or blaming anyone about where he is now.
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
then when the shitstorm came down on him he cashed in his chips and walked away and screamed that his free speech was being trampled on.
I brought his case up as an example of forcible suppression of oppositional speech. They used prison time for an unrelated offense to leverage shutting down a website they otherwise had no legal right to shut down.
The $500,000 of income for which he did not file tax returns was over several years' worth, and it was for two people, him and his wife. If you divided that by say, 5 years, it's about $50,000 per year per person. No, he's not poor, but roughly $50K per year is not rich either.
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
This case was about failure to file. It says nothing about the defendant nor the website violating Section 7206(2) of the IRC.
Actually his defense was his anti-tax argument and it was rejected.
H
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Except the website is not an offense. It is speech protected under the First Amendment.
I think everyone is getting distracted by the content of the website. So let's imagine for a moment the website was not about taxes.
Ok. Lets imagine its a website devoted to showing naked pictures of your ex-wife who divorced you for domestic violence and who now has a protection order saying you cannot harrass, annoy, threaten, etc. Guess what, your going to get charged with violating the protection order AND when found guilty you'll be ordered to take the site down.
Just because something is protected speech does not mean the govt can't place time, place, and manner restrictions on that speech.
We had a case in Ohio that I cited when I prosectued the fella for his wife-website and he argued free speech. Lady had protection order and child support order against ex-husband. He makes a sign and pickets outside her house protesting the child support payments. He was convicted for violating the order, not because of what he was saying but rather because it violated the time, place, and manner restriction the court placed on him.
So what is it you want? If your friend appeals his sentence and wins...he loses. At best the sentence is thrown out...THEN the case is remanded back to the trial court for a new sentence which in this case would be the original sentence had he not taken the Judge's offer (if he's lucky...the Judge has the discretion to give him the maximum if he's pissed off).
Option two, violate the order. In that case the fella gets a NEW charge for violating the order and he CANNOT challenge the validity of the original order. That's called a collateral attack and court's don't allow them. That means you can't use case number 2 to challenge an order or verdict of case number 1. Argued that one myself on a free speech/protection order case similar to the above in the Court of Appeals. Great case...guy gave his protected wife the finger and then called it free speech and challenged the original order on the grounds that it prevented the free exercise of his speech.
H
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Quote:His anti-tax 861 argument was rejected. But the case did not prove merely stating your belief in the 861 argument is violating Section 7206(2) of the IRC.
Originally posted by Hero:Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
This case was about failure to file. It says nothing about the defendant nor the website violating Section 7206(2) of the IRC.
Actually his defense was his anti-tax argument and it was rejected.
H
You are confusing the legal invalidity of the 861 position with illegality of stating the 861 position. Just because it is not legally true does not mean it is illegal to say it, see?
Besides you keep waffling back and forth on this Hero. Sometimes the speech is legal. Sometimes the speech is legal, but only if you pay taxes on any profits from it. Sometimes the speech is a violation of Section 7206(2) of the IRC. Which is it?
If I make a video explaining why George Bush is a great man and president, it's legal. If I sell the video, it's legal. If I don't pay taxes on the sales of the video, you're telling me the video suddenly becomes illegal without benefit of due process. And it would be perfectly within his legal authority for an anti-Bush judge to offer me a more lenient prison sentence in exchange for withdrawing the video from the market.
And for those of you who swing the other way, just imagine the video is anti-Bush, and the judge is pro-Bush.
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Did you know your friend is famous? He's #2 on the etaxes.com list of tax protest scams - kicked out of #1 by Irwin Schiff of Wseley Snipes fame.
http://www.etaxes.com/tax_scams.html
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:C'mon Hero. You can't post naked pictures of anyone without their legal consent. You should know that. And if the content of the website itself is a violation, then that offense has to be tried and convicted in court (which wasn't in Larken's case).
Originally posted by Hero:
Ok. Lets imagine its a website devoted to showing naked pictures of your ex-wife ...
If content is not an issue, choose to substitute content that is indisputably legal.
If content is an issue, then cite the law it violates and cite where the speech violates the law. And show me where the court tried and convicted the defendant for this violation.
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Quote:Yes, I did.
Originally posted by Geezer:
Did you know your friend is famous? He's #2 on the etaxes.com list of tax protest scams - kicked out of #1 by Irwin Schiff of Wseley Snipes fame.
Funny, he was never charged or convicted of scamming anyone.
Unlike Irwin Schiff or Wesley's Snipes' tax preparers.
People can accuse anyone of any crime they want. Doesn't make it true. It's called "trial by jury," Geezer.
And trial by jury says my friend was guilty of failure to file tax returns. Not even failure to pay taxes, mind you--just he didn't mail in his forms by April 15th every year.
You can speculate as much as you want about what else he might be guilty of as much as you want. Scam, theft, adultery, jaywalking, whatever. There is still that inconvenient "trial by jury" thing.
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Like my recent kick, I got to bring it up that even though I'm disagreeing with you on the principal that we can't stand behind every single inarguable case because we'll be viewed as the lunatic fringe, I do agree with the basis of your point.
I kind of assumed that the $500,000 was spread over some time but it wasn't presented that way and I wasn't going to ask. $50,000 for one or even $100,000 for two isn't burnin' Benjamin's rich, but if you make that much and you're smart, you should never have anything really to worry about as long as you have health insurance. I do understand that we live in a debt economy though and they likely were already living beyond their means before this.
Assuming he avoided jail and that he and his wife are still gainfully employed, might I suggest that he and his wife budget themselves and prepare for anything in the future that may require them to have some sort of emergency fund. I know if I were making $50,000 a year on my own I'd be saving at the very least 20k a year to buy a house with cash money when the housing crisis grinds to a halt. Times are prolly getting tougher in the future and it never hurts to prepare for it now when people who aint' used to struggling aren't yet finding them in the position to need to struggle.
Then I suggest when they feel comfortable, and trust me, it feels all sorts of wonderful when you're comfortable, you don't have debt and you're in the position to seriously consider sending your 2008 tax rebate back on principal.... well then I suggest that he open shop back up and run a non-profit site. Sure... he can ask for donations which some people really will willingly give if they truly like his message just to cover the costs 'cause that ain't free. It's a hobby and something that he believes in, but it ain't his primary job and he can't break the law they got the rest of us already living by to fund it. I don't agree with the tax laws or how our money is spent, but we need to get them changed, or in a grand gesture have at least 1 million people not pay their taxes and stand firm. Short of that, to really spread his word he will need a bit of cash to run it.... till then, just claim the tax.
When you're saving, there is plenty of ways to get stuff written off or deducted pre-tax. Up to 25% can go into 401k's tax free if one or both of them have it available to them, IRA's that you fund after tax but grow tax deffered and can be witdrawn without being taxed in retirement, Health Savings Accounts which can be invested as you want them to and save as long as you can and have a financial coushin for health insurance or other medical costs (tax free)... and I'm sure tons more stuff that people with more money than me get around to eventually when other legal tax shelters dry up. I can't even justify itemizing at this point, but I know I'll get breaks on about 6k more this year than last year because I know better now how the game is played.
Just tell him to pay whatever taxes he can't legally get out of before we elect Ron Paul in 2012 and get the tax laws and alphabet agencies out of the picture.
And I want to hear in a future thread (or a post added to this one) that he re-opened his site and what the address is. You make sure that he gets to the point where he'll re-open it the right way and get that message out. "A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:Free ice cream? World peace? Firefly back on TV!!!
Originally posted by Hero:
So what is it you want?
I want some acknowledgement from fellow Americans that 1) the judge's offer was beyond his legal authority, and 2) the judge took advantage of a man facing prison to leverage the voluntary termination of a website he personally did not like. (Edited to change: ...termination of a website he had no legal authority to terminate.)
Short of that, it would be nice to see some substantiation for and consistency in the arguments you guys have made.
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Funny, he was never charged or convicted of scamming anyone.
Based on my experience some 25 years ago in referring tax protester cases for proscution, he meets all the criteria for being charged with promoting a tax scheme. As I've noted before, and you continue to ignore, I can only assume that the prosecutors gave him a break by deciding not to charge him. This wasn't uncommon 25 years ago and probably still obtains today.
I note that his blog site is still up, and that it still links to a page selling his video. http://larkenrose.blogspot.com/ If he continues to violate the agreement he made with the judge, you may find that the DOJ will charge him with promoting tax avoidence this time around. Will that make you happy?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Besides you keep waffling back and forth on this Hero. Sometimes the speech is legal. Sometimes the speech is legal, but only if you pay taxes on any profits from it. Sometimes the speech is a violation of Section 7206(2) of the IRC. Which is it?
Both. All speech is legal in this country, even hate speech. Not all speech is protected, not all protected speech is free from govt. regulation. Not all regulated and protected speech is free from criminal or civil liability.
Lets say I stand up in a crowded theater and shout that you are a child molester while refusing to cease (after being asked to by a law enforcement officer) and allow enjoyment of the movie. Free speech and all still apply BUT I can be prosecuted for Disorderly Conduct, then sued for liable, and banned from returning to the theater (its court discretion...even if the theater says I can come back...although a court will generally craft such an order to meet the wishes of the property owner). Yet I still have every right to say what I said, believe what I believe, and even to say it again to other people in other forums (although I could, given the circumstances find myself once again in civil and criminal trouble).
In other words you can say what you want...but you might be breaking other laws while doing so.
I note for the record that my above example is content neutral and certainly applies in this case. The issue of if this tax resistance argument violates the tax code is not relevant since he was not convicted of that offense. A free speech argument in a case arising solely from such a charge would be interesting. I think it would ultimately turn on the context of the communication.
H
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
And I want to hear in a future thread (or a post added to this one) that he re-opened his site and what the address is.
http://www.theft-by-deception.com/
His video is available for sale here. I don't know who is selling it, but the website says all proceeds go toward dissemination of this information.
There is also a link to a PDF file that is the same argument he made on his old website.
He has a newsletter now via a public mailing list. To subscribe, send an email to tmds-on@mail-list.com (blog-like essays on tyranny in general)
or
861-on@mail-list.com (blog-like essays on the 861 position)
And he did serve one year in a minimum security federal prison for not mailing in his forms by April 15th for 5 years.
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Then you are going to be disappointed because nobody else sees the problem like you do. Normal person might take that as an indication that they have probably got it wrong... guess that wont happen with you though.
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
You can't post naked pictures of anyone without their legal consent. You should know that. And if the content of the website itself is a violation, then that offense has to be tried and convicted in court (which wasn't in Larken's case).
First of all, the legality of publishing naked nonconsensual pics depends of the state you live in (and the circumstances of the publication), but you are generally correct.
Second, a violation can be content neutral in any number of instances. I gave several examples. In the case of the fella picketing his wife's house there was no need to prove his sign about the child support was illegal, his conduct alone was sufficient to meet the elements of the offense.
Lets face it, you keep arguing this in circles cause you don't agree with the decision. Thats fine, its your right. Very few of the criminals I convict agree with the conviction. I had a fella this morning make a very eloquent argument in favor of allowing him to smoke pot...he lost, paid his fine and left. He was not happy, but he was dead wrong in his interpretation of the law, as is your friend about taxes and you about this speech issue. If you don't like it...run for Congress. I'll be glad to enforce the laws your way as soon as you get the laws changed (don't count on my vote though).
H
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Quote:I'm not ignoring your assumption. I am saying you haven't substantiated your assumption thus far. Allow me to be skeptical that your assumption is true until I see material substantiation.
Originally posted by Geezer:
s I've noted before, and you continue to ignore, I can only assume that the prosecutors gave him a break by deciding not to charge him.
Quote:Politically speaking, yes. As friend, I would not be happy to see him go through the wringer just to prove something you won't believe anyway.
I note that his blog site is still up, and that it still links to a page selling his video. http://larkenrose.blogspot.com/ If he continues to violate the agreement he made with the judge, you may find that the DOJ will charge him with promoting tax avoidence this time around. Will that make you happy?
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Quote:False analogies all of them.
Originally posted by Hero:
Second, a violation can be content neutral in any number of instances. I gave several examples.
Let's compare apples to apples:
Action (regardless of speech content): Picketing someone with a protection order against you is an offense. Disruption of a movie theatre is an offense.
Action (regardless of speech content): Running a website is not a criminal offense.
Give me an example of an action that is legal, where the content is legal, and connect that someone choosing not to file tax returns. Then we might have a logically valid analogy.
Edited to add: Why don't you use my analogies? Use the war protester website or the "I love Bush"/"I hate Bush" (whichever you prefer) website. Both identical actions, both legal speech. Only difference is content, to control for anti-tax-protester bias.
Sometimes his speech was legal. Sometimes his speech wasn't legal. Sometimes it wasn't legal. Now it was both. You change your rationalization to suit every argument I come up with. You're the one spinning the circles with false analogies and waffling positions, not me.
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Quote:Nobody else who is talking on this thread on this board. I know plenty of people who see it like I do.
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Then you are going to be disappointed because nobody else sees the problem like you do. Normal person might take that as an indication that they have probably got it wrong... guess that wont happen with you though.
Not that popularity proves me right or wrong.
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I'm sure the members of the KKK has the same view on coloured people. A clique giving mutual support of their own biases means nothing. The thing that would make me worried is that folks on this board don't really agree on anything. If they look at it and all disagree with you then that's a pretty good indication that you are probably wrong. they are your peer group.
It doesnt matter what the KKK thinks about coloured folks because that isnt the view of the majority of Americans. The majority here, the folks without your emotional and idiological identification with your friend see the issue differently, that should tell you something.
Closing thought. Assume for the moment that your friend is right, 861 is a cast iron garenteed tax loophole backed by law. You know if that was the case it would be closed in days. It only hasn't been closed because it isnt a loophole. These are the IRS's own rules, they could change them. It's an exploit that well isn't an exploit. Your friend is like the kid who thinks he's found a hole in his parent's logic that will let him stay up later to watch TV, he doesnt realise that even if he's right the loophole will be gone tomorrow.
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Quote:Who's "they"? We got Geezer, Fletch, Hero and Finn--mostly conservatives who I would hardly call my peer group. We got Rue, who apparently thinks it is an interesting question but hasn't come down hard on either side. And 6ix, who apparently agrees with me in principle, but thinks it is not as big a deal as I make it out to be.
Originally posted by Fletch2:
If they look at it and all disagree with you then that's a pretty good indication that you are probably wrong. they are your peer group.
The other "folks on this board who don't agree on anything" (Frem, SignyM, Sergeant, HK, Auraptor, Citizen, etc) have not posted. So it is NOT the overwhelming consensus of diverse thinkers against my position that you describe.
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Here is my closing thought. Forget we've been arguing about taxes and consider the following.
Bob runs a "I love Bush" website. (You can make it "I hate Bush" if you want.) He makes a video on how much he loves Bush (sold on a separate website), which surprisingly sells like hotcakes. He decides not to file his tax returns, thus not declaring his income for either his day job (real estate business) or his video sales. He is tried and convicted for failure to file. The judge offers him leniency if he would do X. Which of the following X's do you think is within the judge's authority and which is definitely wrong?
1) Write "I will not cheat on my taxes" on the blackboard 100 times.
2) Write "I hate Bush" on the blackboard 100 hundred times.
3) Have sex with the judge.
4) Donate a house for the judge's favorite charity.
5) Take down the "I love Bush" website.
6) Take down the website through which he sold the videos.
7) Give up the names of any website collaborators who also love Bush.
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Edited to add: Why don't you use my analogies?
Because is does not matter what the content of the website is. If he sold videos over his website the Judge can order it shut down as part of the sentencing order.
You want an example of something legal that the Judge can bar you from? Drinking. You get a DUI offense the Judge can order you not to drink and stick a SCRAM bracelet on you to enforce it.
Another? Going to court and watching. But if you expose yourself in court you can get banned from the Courtroom.
Another? Worshipping God in the Church of your choosing. But if your church abuses children (or livestock) they can shut that church down and prevent the excercise of that religeon.
Another? Living near a school. Not if your convicted of a sex offense (even one NOT involving children).
It goes on and on. The bottom line is your fella was convicted, which means he loses his liberty. How much does he lose? Thats up to the Judge and the sentencing guidelines...the Judge can throw him in jail or make conditions on his continued release or some combination of the two. Happens every day, in nearly every case.
One Judge I know forced a fella to read a book. Another was made to write an apology. Another went to jail for six months. Another got a slap on the wrist and 'don't do that again'. Another didn't get a sentence cause the Judge never rulled on it. Once the word "guilty" gets written down, the Judge can do anything they want (except be cruel...or unusual...or prejuducial...or abuse their discretion).
H
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
I am saying you haven't substantiated your assumption thus far. Allow me to be skeptical that your assumption is true until I see material substantiation.
As stated before I spent several years reviewing tax protester correspondence and referring it for legal action. Your friend's video contains the same arguments, almost some of the same wording, as the one's that met criteria for action under US Code, Title 26, 6701. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode26/usc_sec_26_00006701----000-
.html
I can tell you for sure, from personal experience, that folk were prosecuted for stuff materially identical to his video. Hard to find the exact cases 25 years after the fact.
Also note T26 7408. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/7408.html
"the court may enjoin such person from engaging in such conduct or in any other activity subject to penalty under this title."
So if your friend was convicted under 6700 for failure to file taxes, he could be enjoined from violating 6701, even if he was not previously charged with or convicted of violating it. Not having all the coupr papers, I can't say if such an injunction was brought, but it could have.
I got nothing against your friend, but suspect he was a dupe of the tax protester subculture, just like some folk are duped by charasmatic religious groups. If he'd bothered to do any research outside the protester community, he'd have found that the 861 position and similar have been refuted in court and in regulation time and time again. If you want to be mad at anyone, try being mad at the folks who suckered him into becoming a criminal.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Which of the following X's do you think is within the judge's authority and which is definitely wrong?
1) Write "I will not cheat on my taxes" on the blackboard 100 times.
2) Write "I hate Bush" on the blackboard 100 hundred times.
3) Have sex with the judge.
4) Donate a house for the judge's favorite charity.
5) Take down the "I love Bush" website.
6) Take down the website through which he sold the videos.
7) Give up the names of any website collaborators who also love Bush.
There are specific Canons of Judicial Ethics against Judges forcing Defendants to have sex with them.
Also a Judge cannot order someone to express a political opinion or donate to a charity...it could be a part of a consensual agreement.
He can order a person to write 'I will not cheat on my taxes'. I've seen it done in other contexts.
He can order the person give up the names of co-conspirators, but would not unless it was relevant to the case or the ongoing investigation. I note this rarely comes up in this context but rather in trial (on cross examination) or perhaps in a Grand Jury setting. In those cases a person will either be found in contempt or charged with Obstruction if they fail to comply.
H
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Quote:Ok. But all I have is still your word for it. Not saying you're lying, but you could be mistaken that those cases and this case have identical material. After all, it was 25 years ago.
Originally posted by Geezer:
I can tell you for sure, from personal experience, that folk were prosecuted for stuff materially identical to his video. Hard to find the exact cases 25 years after the fact.
Until I see case law, I'm afraid your claim is still materially unsubstantiated.
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Ok. But all I have is still your word for it. Not saying you're lying, but you could be mistaken that those cases and this case have identical material. After all, it was 25 years ago.
Until I see case law, I'm afraid your claim is still materially unsubstantiated.
Why would I lie? I got no stake in it. 90% of 861 claims looked the same back then, and from what I see now they still look the same.
Anyway, no matter what additional case law or regulations I provide (See the cites to the US Code above, which apply to your friend's case)you'll say it doesn't apply.
Your friend was convicted of failure to file under US26, 6700. This leaves him open to injunction against operating a website promoting failure to file under US26 7804. Doesn't matter if he was charged with promoting tax avoidence or not.
As Hero noted, the judge also has broad discretion in sentencing. He, or the DOJ, could have formally requested an injunction against your friend's website and video, costing him more in legal fees and costs. The judge decided to make shutting down the site part of the sentencing agreement instead, thus saving your friend expense and angst.
Hey, if you want to feel put-upon because your friend got cut a break, go ahead. You really do seem to want him to have gone down for additional charges so you can feel sorrier for him. Enjoy. I'm leaving you to your fantasy-world.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Until I see case law, I'm afraid your claim is still materially unsubstantiated.
(Sigh) Here are a couple off the top of my head:
UNITED STATES v. HOLLAND, 830 F.Supp. 1388 (1993);
My favorite part is this nice line which your friend probably ought to have taken note:
Quote:
If the alleged criminal activity is patently criminal no amount of First Amendment involvement would deter lawful prosecution.
"No power is more basic to the ultimate purpose and function of government than is the power to tax", Bates v. City of Little Rock, 361 U.S. 516, 524, 80 S. Ct. 412, 417, 4 L. Ed. 2d 480 (1960).
"While the political speech of NCBA members is protected by the first amendment, the same is not true of speech encouraging or facilitating illegal activity." Heinold Hog Market, Inc. v. McCoy, 700 F.2d 611, 616 (10th Cir.1983).
All of these cases involved various tax resistance movements/schemes/nutjobs/associations/PirateNews/etc.
H
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I've been watching, not quite wanting to say anything, but I'm in agreement with Hero and Finn which really should tell someone something...
I can see where you're coming from CTS, but I don't see it as an attack on freedom of speech.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:Oh good lord! I gotta go with Hero, Finn and Citizen, which is really REALLY saying something.
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Until I see case law, I'm afraid your claim is still materially unsubstantiated.
I am beginning to seriously wonder how your brain works CTS. You appear to be bound and determined to dismiss anything that doesn't agree with your view, all the while claiming: I HAVE AN OPEN MIND I HAVE AN OPEN MIND! Whatever. I'm not seeing material substantiation of that...
It calls to mind the 9/11 conspiracy thread where you asked for scientific discussion, and when you got it you said "But I'm not a scientist so I don't have to accept this", and when you were called on that BS you disappeared from the thread... to do your own research you claimed. Hey - how's that going?
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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
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I gotta say I feel for ya canttakethesky....
Usually it's me who ends up with no allies in an anti-happy pill thread. 
I'm not against ya though. I know your heart is in the right place and there is definately something to be angry about, but I just think you're angry at the wrong things.
Quote:
I want some acknowledgement from fellow Americans that 1) the judge's offer was beyond his legal authority...
I really don't believe this to be the case. The question is, should it be against his legal authority? I belive the answer to that question is yes. These were, for face value, two very similar issues... but in reality they were vastly different. He shouldn't be legally allowed to be strong armed like that, but at the same time I'm sure they cut him a hell of a deal if he didn't pay fines and only spent a year in the pokey. Giving up his site and DVD sales were basically a form of payment. It may not have been in the form of currency, but what the hell is currency today but a promise?
We were off the gold standard well before any of us were born. JFK attempted to back the currency with silver (hold on to any of those cool Silver Certificate dollars if you're lucky enough to find one), but he didn't live long enough to see that vision come through. Hell, with all the 1's and 0's floating around out there in cyberspace, the dollar isn't even backed by the paper it's printed on anymore. If were a judge and you had the ability to strong arm someone, what's more valuable to you? Currency, or a chance to shut down a website that you or your superiors were threatened by?
If anything, be mad that this is legal for them to do. I believe that 100%.
Quote:
... and 2) the judge took advantage of a man facing prison to leverage the voluntary termination of a website he personally did not like.
I agree with you 100% here....
Quote:
(Edited to change: ...termination of a website he had no legal authority to terminate.)
Then you go and lose me again. The judge did not terminate it. He simply made a suggestion. There are people who have been forced to move into their cars or worse over the years for standing up in something they truly believed. Your friend isn't one of them, although I do have to say that I admire him for sticking to his guns as long as he did and serving a 1 year martyrdom in prison for it.
I think what you've found here is a loophole Government has to legally repress free speech or pretty much do whatever the hell they want, if somebody so flagrantly flaunts the established order and is not prepaired to back their actions up. Nothing more, nothing less.
I do agree that it needs legal closure.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:I didn't get into the thread because I thought No-Knock warrants was a slam-dunk argument. (BTW Hero, if cop safety is the REAL reason for no-knock it seems time to invest $ in a little robot that can knock on the door for the cops while they watch safely from a distance. Problem solved.) Anyway, I've read most of the thread. Your friend sounds like a particularly obnoxious two-year-old having a temper tantrum. He made a deal to reduce his sentence, and now he's whining about it and so are you. Neither one of you has learned anything from the experience.
Who's "they"? We got Geezer, Fletch, Hero and Finn--mostly conservatives who I would hardly call my peer group. We got Rue, who apparently thinks it is an interesting question but hasn't come down hard on either side. And 6ix, who apparently agrees with me in principle, but thinks it is not as big a deal as I make it out to be.
The other "folks on this board who don't agree on anything" (Frem, SignyM, Sergeant, HK, Auraptor, Citizen, etc) have not posted. So it is NOT the overwhelming consensus of diverse thinkers against my position that you describe.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:Who's "they"? We got Geezer, Fletch, Hero and Finn--mostly conservatives who I would hardly call my peer group.
Originally posted by canttakesky:
If they look at it and all disagree with you then that's a pretty good indication that you are probably wrong. they are your peer group.
Let's clarify something. For most rational people a peer group does not mean "only the people that agree with me" it means people of a similar age, social position and life experience. The regular posters here have probably the widest range of positions it's possible to have and hardly ever agree on anything. Seriously, the fact that such a wide cross section of them see it different to you probably does mean that you are wrong on this.
Just consider the possibility, ok?
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For the record, after posing the question and reading the answers (and actually learning something), I was politely hinting that it was within the judge's authority to offer the deal. I also said the 'coercive' situation was entirely due to your friend - and it was a situation he invited by 1) breaking the law, 2) inviting arrest and 3) acting as his own lawyer. Further, that your friend TOOK the deal indicates to me the deal was something of value to him and, and therefore, the judge did him a favor.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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~ Excerpt from Dale Caraniges' lesser known follow up book "How NOT To Win Friends and Influence People"
Just playin' signy. I just don't see you go into troll mode all that much.
And I know you posted that yesterday before my last post canttakethesky, but I hope you know now that I'm not trying to downplay the situation at all. I don't agree with it at all, and quite resent how this kind of thing is done all the time, having been close to someone who got it much much worse than your friend did. I've spoken about it before in here, but don't wish to elaborate at this juncture.
Government is supposed to serve the people. It would serve them well if there were safeguards to ensure position can't be abused. As it is now, I don't feel that the judge did anything outside of the law.
I don't necessarily subscribe to a lawless society as I haven't been sold on that concept, although I do quite frequently entertain the notion. But there is many positive things to say about Government and the benefits that we're fortunate enough to have one of the more benevolent ones for the last 200 years and what it has provided us. For example, our technology would likely have never gotten to the point where we can post to each other had we never pooled resources as we have today. I can and do say a lot of negative things about centralization, but it does have it's occasional perk. That being said, I'm not really against the system itself, but the way it is abused by those within it today.
Incidentally, anybody who lives in America and for whatever reason finds themselves in financial debt or on Government assistance I put in that category as well. I'm not calling them bad people at all. I'm just saying that when your back is against the wall and you have no resources left to draw from, you're in a position where you have to just grab your ankles and take it, oftentimes without even the ability to even risk talking shit under your breath as you sulk off having been defeated. I work with people who badmouth superiors behind their back and then kiss their ass in person... prolly a lot of us do. That's what this guy really is doing now, and maybe he's not doing it. Maybe he doesn't walk around with a soapbox and it just comes off that way in this thread.
All I'm saying is that he's not powerless. We're not powerless. And even if at times it seems like we have nothing, we do have the pleasure and comfort of knowing that there are others who are displeased with the status quo and that, unlike in 1984, we're still able to meet and talk with each other.
Good luck to your friend. I'm very happy with anyone spreading the message he is and I hope he becomes stable enough where he can position himself to piss them off without them having recourse to discard him like a soiled tissue next time.
Hell, even Hero said he doesn't agree with tax law. He has a heart, who knew? "A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:The world as I know it is ended.
Originally posted by citizen:
I'm in agreement with Hero and Finn
*searches for gun*
lostisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
but at the same time I'm sure they cut him a hell of a deal if he didn't pay fines
He did pay fines, lots of it. And back taxes too. The deal didn't include that.
Quote:That is just a misunderstanding. The edited sentence should read:
Originally posted by Jack:Quote:
I said:
... and 2) the judge took advantage of a man facing prison to leverage the voluntary termination of a website he personally did not like.
I agree with you 100% here....Quote:
(Edited to change: ...termination of a website he had no legal authority to terminate.)
Then you go and lose me again. The judge did not terminate it.
... the judge took advantage of a man facing prison to leverage the voluntary termination of a website he had no legal authority to terminate.
Are we ok again?
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Quote:First of all, did I make that claim? I don't remember.
Originally posted by mal4prez:
You appear to be bound and determined to dismiss anything that doesn't agree with your view, all the while claiming: I HAVE AN OPEN MIND I HAVE AN OPEN MIND! Whatever. I'm not seeing material substantiation of that...
I am open to new evidence. I am not so open to opinions, with no substantiation, that contain little to no logic. All I've heard here are misinformed opinions on why the website might be illegal, with no evidence to back up the accusations. Hero presents what might be considered "expert" opinion, which does carry slightly more weight--but he has been inconsistent and goes off on irrelevant tangents.
Let's recap, shall we? First Hero said:
Quote:and
Never happened. Either you made it all up to make a point or your friend lied to you to make himself look like a victim.
Simply put, there is no law against speaking out against the income tax. Millions do it every year. Your friend 'failed to file' and that is a crime. The two issues are not related.
Quote:Then when he found out the judge DID do it, and it wasn't a lie, all sorts of speculations on why the judge offered the deal sprang up. These speculations all centered around one premise: the website MUST have been illegal. But WHY it was illegal bounced around whenever I made an argument.
What case? What judge?
Didn't happen. Lie, ebellishment...whatever. What you say did not happen. No judge would do it, no judge would allow it as part of a deal.
Speculation #1: Criminal Enterprise. (From Hero) The website speech was legal. The website became illegal because of Criminal Enterprise. Just like a hammer is legal, but becomes illegal because of Possession of Criminal Tools, when used to commit a crime.
(a) Hero made fun of me when I asked if someone needs to be charged, tried, and convicted of Possession of Criminal Tools. Of course, he says. If Criminal Enterprise is just like Criminal Tools, why is the judge allowed to determine guilt unilaterally without a trial and conviction for Criminal Enterprise?
(b) According to Hero, Criminal Enterprise is about a business for which one fails to pay taxes. In this case, he had 3 "businesses": (1) tax protester website (no income, only outgoing costs), (2) the video website and the video (some income), and (3) the medical transcription business (main source of income). If the accusation of Criminal Enterprise were truly involved, why were the no-income protester website and the some-income video website shut down, while the main-income transcription business allowed to continue? It is not logical that the main-income business was not considered Criminal Enterprise, while the no-income business was.
Speculation #2: Legal Speech Used in Illegal Activity(Also from Hero.) The website speech was legal. This argument bypasses the requirement Criminal Enterprise had for a trial and conviction. If you use legal speech in an illegal activity, you only need to prove the activity was illegal--the speech doesn't matter.
(a) So let's look at the illegal activity with the legal speech. Activity: Operating a website. Speech: Protesting taxes. Oh wait, operating a website is legal, and protesting taxes is legal.
(b) Actual illegal activity: Failing to file tax returns. Speech: None (cause you know, his crime was actually saying nothing when he should have said something). So this speculation fails the logic test as well.
Speculation #3: Violation of 7206(2) of the IRC for Tax Fraud Scheme(From Geezer.)The website speech is illegal. The website "promotes tax avoidance." There are years of case law supporting this interpretation that explaining and advocating the 861 position is illegal.
(a)The 7206 law and similar laws say: (1) you can neither help nor advise (2) the presentation or preparation of (3) any tax document under (4) the Internal Revenue Code. The key word here is TAX DOCUMEN
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Bottom line- the Judge had his way, legalities notwithstanding. Another 'gray' area bumped into the black. Yea status quo.
Dreddisall
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Quote:First of all, I did not say that. I said I distinguished between personal political opinions and technical ones, and I don't need technical justification for political opinions. Secondly, I said I would address the technical opinions after I've done some technical research. I did and fully intended on starting a new thread on the WTC Collapse soon.
Originally posted by mal4prez:
It calls to mind the 9/11 conspiracy thread where you asked for scientific discussion, and when you got it you said "But I'm not a scientist so I don't have to accept this", and when you were called on that BS you disappeared from the thread... to do your own research you claimed. Hey - how's that going?
However, I just got an epiphany this morning, as I was writing that long-ass summary to you: I waste way too much time on this board. Nothing I say hasn't been said before, by people much more articulate than I. If they didn't convince people here, why would I? Who do I think I am, that I have anything to offer besides ideological target practice? Why do I even come here?
I appreciate the challenges and ideas certain RWED members have shared over the years. I have learned a GREAT deal from Frem, 6ix, Sergeant, HK, Causal, Antimason etc. I have even learned things from people I largely don't agree with, like Sig, Rue, Cit, Hero, Auraptor, Geezer, etc. But these nuggets of insight are few and far in between. Cost-benefit wise, are they worth my time? Couldn't I get more insights from reading established authors?
I appreciate the interaction and small family RWED has become. But it is a highly dysfunctional family in which members routinely abuse each other verbally. Don't I have more positive places to be, more positive things to do? Don't I have three children who are dying to spend more time with me?
So the short end of my epiphany is that I am not going to post that thread after all. I've posted the links to both pilots and architects/engineers who doubt the official 911 story. At most I would be parroting their arguments. So let those sites stand in for my thread.
In fact, I am going to go do more positive things with my life from now on. If anyone wants to contact me, my email is canttakesky@att.net. Please feel free to vilify me in my absence.
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Nullius in verba (Take no one's word.)
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Whatever.
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Larken Rose asked me to post this for him. He will not come back and check responses, I am not coming back to check responses, so it is solely being tossed out for consideration.
Quote:
Suppose, if you will, that after a careful a study of the tax code, I concluded that the government was LYING about the proper application of the law, and demanding money from lots of people who did NOT legally owe it. (I know that's what I believe, but you'll have to "suppose" it.) So I believe I see evidence of a huge financial fraud--the biggest in history, in fact. My question is this: is it a crime for me to SAY SO? Apparently some people think it is. Apparently they reason (if "reason" is the right word) that because the stating of my opinion might lead others to look into the issue and agree with me, which might result in them not filing or paying (because they conclude they don't owe it), therefore the mere EXPRESSION of my belief about the correct application of the law, and the deception related to it, is a CRIME.
So I'd like some of those arguing with Canttakesky to answer, yes or no, is it a CRIME for me to say that I think the government has committed a massive fraud? (The bonus question is, does my right to say what I think depend upon whether you, or anyone else, thinks my beliefs are correct?)
Larken Rose
(P.S. Before saying, "Well, the government told you you were wrong!"--which was the government's entire argument at trial--keep it mind that people who commit fraud generally don't admit it. No, they say "that's nonsense!" to the one who accuses them.)
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Chris,
I can't believe I left your name out of the list of people I learned from. Your humor and balance keep this place going. I really believe that.
Bighugisall
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"(a) It's called blackmail."
Uhmm - the guy broke the law and was found guilty. He was being sentenced for his crime.
On top of that he took the deal he was offered.
As I have said (several times), he created - actually invited - the coercive circumstance by his own actions of his own free will. And that's one point you continually ignore. If the judge had yanked him off the street and threatened him with jail time for no good reason unless he took down the site you might have an argument. But it didn't happen that way.
And (yet once again) your friend took the deal. He could have said no. But it was obviously of value to him to take down his website rather than spend all his legally-earned time in prison.
Until you can factor those two vital facts into your argument it's not going to fly.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:Rue, what if you went to fight a speeding ticket, and the judge said that he'd waive the points on you license if you took your anti-Bush bumper sticker off your vehicle?
Originally posted by rue:
he created - actually invited - the coercive circumstance by his own actions of his own free will.
Just askin'isall
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Being as the bumper sticker is unrelated to the speeding it wouldn't happen.
Now if he made me take that anti-radar coating off my license plates I'd say it was a fair deal.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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I just learned that some people are close minded enough to only want to hear affirmation of their opinion.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:What if he made you take down your "The Thrills Of Speed" website??
Originally posted by rue:
Now if he made me take that anti-radar coating off my license plates I'd say it was a fair deal.
More preciseisall
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If it promoted street racing I'd say it was a good deal as well.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:What if it called for speed limits to be raised on interstates and cops to be deployed in zones where the majority of accidents happen? What if it accused the government of intentionally putting lives at risk by focusing on easy highway speeding ticket money?
Originally posted by rue:
If it promoted street racing I'd say it was a good deal as well.
Even more precise Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
What if he made you take down your "The Thrills Of Speed" website??
Had that case last summer. I didn't make them take the site down.
I did use it against them (as an admission) when I convicted them of street racing and used it to justify asking for a jail term (no remorse).
They did three days. Kinda funny. I suggested they go to the county next door...more open roads and the Deputies don't chase as often.
H
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Chris, really, it's not helping. You can find a point where "they" stepped over the line. Mr Rose could have told them what to do with their offer and done his time like a true believer. As it was he was given a break and took it.
What is NOT happening here is that they were adding on more time because of his website. What IS happening here is that he was offered a reduction if he took it down.
I think that was WRONG I dont think he should have been offered any deal, in fact I think he should have done the max, not because of RWA tendencies towards harsher sentencing but because it would at least give CTS something justified to whine about.
The image that CTS pops into my mind these days (and I appologise for this CTS, it's to do with associative imagery) is of Gollem with his hands over his ears shaking his head and saying "Not listening, I'm not listening.."
Bored now.
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Quote:I don't understand- if the website was illegal, why not just bust him for that? And if it wasn't illegal, it's clearly suppression of an idea (sort of a free-speech thing as I see it).
Originally posted by Fletch2:
What is NOT happening here is that they were adding on more time because of his website. What IS happening here is that he was offered a reduction if he took it down.
Petulant Chrisisall
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If the idea is inciting others to break the law then yeah.
He broke the law, which means that he doesn't have the same rights that other folks do. The second ammendment is in the Constitution the highest law in the land. Yet a fellon cannot buy a weapon in some states. You have a constitutional right of free association, but a fellon may not be allowed to associate with other criminals. You have a constitutional right to the use of your property, but if you own a house across from a school and then get convicted for a sex crime you may not be allowed to live there.
You don't have a right to have a website, but given that even constitionally garenteed rights do not nescessarily apply to fellons it is not outside the power of the court to offer the deal.
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I don't understand- if the website was illegal, why not just bust him for that?
Read the copies of the search warrant affidavit at the bottom of this page, http://www.quatlosers.com/larken_rose.htm and you'll see that his site and video figure strongly in the rationale for the warrant. His fellow 861 proponent, Thurston Bell, has been injoined from running a similar site. http://www.usdoj.gov/tax/BellFinalOrder.pdf
Google Larkin Rose and Thurston Bell and you'll find that they run in the same circles as others also either convicted of tax avoidence or injoined from promoting the 861 tax scheme.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:Thanks Fletch, that clears up the legal part of it for me.
Originally posted by Fletch2:
given that even constitionally garenteed rights do not nescessarily apply to fellons it is not outside the power of the court to offer the deal.
Now, I just had 3 molars extracted since my last post- I'm no good for any more brainworking....oxycodone? what is this stuff? It still hurts.
GRRRRRRisall
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"What if it called for speed limits to be raised on interstates and cops to be deployed in zones where the majority of accidents happen? What if it accused the government of intentionally putting lives at risk by focusing on easy highway speeding ticket money?"
I wasn't ignoring you, Chris,isall, I had some stuff to do.
Let's make it even more applicable -
Let's say the website claims if you read a particular section of the legal code you'll see that NO traffic postings are legal - speed limits, parking restrictions, stop signs, crosswalks etc. The website says it's b/c of a loophole in the law - that since it's a mere agency that is determining these things rather than the appropriate representative body (town council, county legislature etc) the rules and regulations don't have the force of law. (This is a real argument that's been made elsewhere - but before anyone says whoopppee !! I need to point out the rebuttal - when the law-making body creates these agencies it also confers on them the authority to make rules and regulations, codify them into law, and enforce them.) Let's say that that is the argument the street-racer/ speeder makes before the judge - and loses, is found guilty, and comes up for sentencing.
Should the judge have the discretion to reduce the sentence if the speeder takes down the website ?
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:I suppose....
Originally posted by rue:
Should the judge have the discretion to reduce the sentence if the speeder takes down the website ?
or is this the oxycodone talkin'?
*Hates to admit he wasn't taking all sides into considerationisisall
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Quote:On the other thread you said: "Of course, I am always open to hearing more opinions on the topic." Is that not a claim to open-mindedness? OK, so maybe you somehow didn't mean it that way...
Originally posted by canttakesky:Quote:First of all, did I make that claim? I don't remember.
Originally posted by mal4prez:
You appear to be bound and determined to dismiss anything that doesn't agree with your view, all the while claiming: I HAVE AN OPEN MIND I HAVE AN OPEN MIND!
Quote:So you're open to new evidence, but aren't ready to own up to claiming you have an open mind. Which means... *scratches head*
I am open to new evidence.
So, are you open-minded? What's the difference between being open-minded and open to new evidence?
Quote:Hmm. Let's review...Quote:First of all, I did not say that.
...you said "But I'm not a scientist so I don't have to accept this"...
You called for a discussion based in fact and evidence, and asked specific questions as to the engineering and collapse of the buildings. I quote: "It behooves us to investigate if these official stories hold water" and you said things like:"That is, a building designed to take impact from an aluminum plane can take impact from a larger aluminum plane, you see?"
This was technical talk that YOU started, but after the resulting discussion didn't support your suppositions, you abruptly distanced yourself: "I'm speaking as a citizen, not as a scientist. As a citizen, I can say "I'm not buying it" if I want to."
(So... "That is, a building designed to take impact from an aluminum plane can take impact from a larger aluminum plane, you see?" was speaking as a citizen?)
My interpretation: you were happy to talk science as long as it appeared to support you. When it didn't, you rejected it on the grounds that you're not a scientist and scientific evidence doesn't have to color your opinion.
Should I have interpreted the exchange differently?
Quote:Wow, Fletch2's image of Gollum comes to mind...
I said I distinguished between personal political opinions and technical ones, and I don't need technical justification for political opinions.
My mind is boggled. Scrambled.
Maybe I'm understanding you wrong - are you really saying that your position in this discussion and the WTC thread are a political opinions needing no technical justification? Hunh.
Really?
Really?
If so, what about all the evidence you provide to back yourself up - legal jargon here and airplane weight and technical expertise from your pilot friend on the other thread. What is that if not technical justification? If you didn't think this info lent weight to your opinions and might have some effect on mine, why did you take the time to type it all out?
One would think that evidence only counts with you when it's in *support* of your opinions...
OK, all that aside, I do think that taking the guy's site down seems a bit excessive. Which is - I tell you straight up - my purely law-ignorant opinion. Legal jargon makes my brain numb.
But then, I'm of two minds about paying taxes. I think it's a necessary part of an orderly society, (I like that the roads are paved and get plowed in the winter, etc) but I'm pretty pissed about some of the stuff my tax dollars are used for.
Sadly, I haven't found a way to reconcile myself to the situation. I'd withhold paying the portion of my taxes which goes to the war if I could. But then I'm pissed about the troops not getting proper treatment for PTSD because it costs too much, and I'm deadset against other folks ignoring the law as they choose - such as perverts with illusions of religious grandeur brainwashing and raping little girls.
It's a complex world. I've got no answers for much of it.
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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
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Oh, and thanks Geezer, for the spadework.
Out of it Chrisisall
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Hey Chris,isall
When I had dental work done the stuff did me no good. OTOH when I had shingles it was the only thing that made it bearable over the many weeks it took to get over it. (And DAMN ! my whacked-out immune system for being allergic to anti-virals ... 
)
Anyway, I've found different pain-relieving drugs work for different things in the same person. And different pain relievers are needed for the same things in different people. Just don't take aspirin, or you could bleed a lot. And don't drink with any of them, but if you do want to drink instead - ehhh ... I'm not going to touch that.
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Anyway, you could apply the whole argument to instances great and small - no parking signs and speed traps come to mind as the most manipulated money-making government schemes ever.
By what others have posted, it does seem to me the judge has the discretion during sentencing. It doesn't mean I like it, but that's the way it is. CTS would have gotten a lot further I think by saying - even if it IS legal, isn't it an outrage !!??? What can we do about it to reverse this discretion ??
But -- maybe that's what the ACLU does best.
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:I suppose....
Originally posted by rue:
Should the judge have the discretion to reduce the sentence if the speeder takes down the website ?
or is this the oxycodone talkin'?
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:My Wife had hydrocodone left over from her wisdom tooth pull, & that's working wonders!!!
Originally posted by rue:
When I had dental work done the stuff did me no good.
Quote:Another thing- the guy's not a felon, it's a misdemeanor, right?
By what others have posted, it does seem to me the judge has the discretion during sentencing. It doesn't mean I like it, but that's the way it is.
It still seems wrong, especially from a 'Mal' POV.
But that's what governments are forisall
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Quote:The law has been quoted to Mr Rose time and time again. His problem is that he thinks his OPINION has any meaning in a legal sense. But he doesn't make the law, nor does he interpret it. He can shout from the mountaintops all he wants, but that does not change the fact that THE LAW has been interpreted against him many times already.
Suppose, if you will, that after a careful a study of the tax code, I concluded that the government was LYING about the proper application of the law, and demanding money from lots of people who did NOT legally owe it. (I know that's what I believe, but you'll have to "suppose" it.) So I believe I see evidence of a huge financial fraud--the biggest in history, in fact. My question is this: is it a crime for me to SAY SO? Apparently some people think it is. Apparently they reason (if "reason" is the right word) that because the stating of my opinion might lead others to look into the issue and agree with me, which might result in them not filing or paying (because they conclude they don't owe it), therefore the mere EXPRESSION of my belief about the correct application of the law, and the deception related to it, is a CRIME.
It would be far more productive, and...er... SANE on his part instead of flogging his dead horse, if he actually tried to change the law: Appeal to his Congresspeople to change the tax code, or work to elect a candidate closer to his viewpoint.
AFA his website is concerned, my understanding is that it was a business through which he sold videotapes. And of course didn't pay any taxes on his income. I wonder, if he had not sold videotapes but merely expressed his opinion on-line (for free) if the the website would have been an issue.
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
By what others have posted, it does seem to me the judge has the discretion during sentencing. It doesn't mean I like it, but that's the way it is. CTS would have gotten a lot further I think by saying - even if it IS legal, isn't it an outrage !!??? What can we do about it to reverse this discretion ??"
We do, they are called manditory sentences. I recall people getting very upset when that kid who had underaged sex with his GF was gong to be locked up for 12 years/ made a sex offender etc. That's what happens with manditory sentences.
Thing that has to be remembered is that this WAS a deal that the defendant didnt have to accept and that reduced his sentence. The only valid alternative if you don't like that is that the defendent gets to serve extra time. You have a right to bear arms, do so while commiting a robbery and it will add a manditory component to your sentence. Despite what CTS may think the contents of the website COULD end up becoming extra charges because it is related to the crime, limiting judicial discression might just have meant that Rose got convicted of extra charges of impeeding the IRS (or whatever they called in in the warrant.)
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Well, yeah, there is that downside, but only if one accepts the idea that mandatory sentences are the only way to limit discretion. I was thinking more along the lines of requiring an automatic review for any sentence which limits constitutional freedoms. Or perhaps taking those kinds of limits off the book through a SCOTUS review, though with the current SCOTUS that would not be something to be done with great haste. Maybe wait for a better SCOTUS.
That other stuff - that's information we're not privy to - maybe they said to him - look, we got you dead to rights on the website, we could charge you and you'd be guilty and it would be even worse - just take it down and we'll go easy. It's context-sensitive and there's a lot we don't know about the context.
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This was a deal, so I accept that the following analogy is not perfect.
Imagine that some girl had an obsessive stalker, someone that built her a "homage" website with "paparatzi" style pictures of her going about her business, love poems, stuff about her sexlife... Real creepy stuff.
Such is his love that he pays for the site 5 years in advance. Suppose she confronts him about it and in an argument he kills her.
Does the judge have the right to have the site taken down? It's the stalker's property and it's paid for in advance. Now it attracts gouls and is distressing to her parents but there is nothing illegal about the content.
If the site itself contains nothing illegal and the stalker doesnt give permission to take it down ("it's my shrine to her memory" etc) do you have the legal right to curtail his free speech?
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