Polygamist Pedophiles and Papal Pontifications
POSTED BY: deadlockvictim
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 01:32
VIEWED: 23329
PAGE 22 of 28
I'm down with that on one condition.
I get to start with you mainstream christian fucks first.
Believe me, I would be MORE than happy to even *kill* the whole fucking lot of you, Christians, Muslims, Zionistas, and every goddamn "true-believer" on the planet who thinks they have some kind of divine fucking right to force their morals and beliefs down the throat of everyone else.
I would riverdance with glee as the bodies hit the floor, never you doubt it for a moment.
But I would never, EVER, not in a million years try to force my standards, morals or beliefs down their throats, because you know what - I consider that to be worse.
And it is this one tiny thing, that nobody seems to understand, that has me in the very unenviable position of actually defending folk I despise THAT much, so wholeheartedly and without reservation.
You got a right to believe what you believe, but you AIN'T got no right to force that shit on anyone else, or attempt to revoke someone else's right to believe - you can judge them on their ACTIONS, you can charge them for their actions if they are criminal, but you must prove that in a court of law, not put their BELIEFS on trial which is what has happened here.
Might I remind you that the original bullshit warrant that sparked this was pitched out like the worthless trash it truly was today, and of course the State means to cover it's ass, but that and the lack of charges leaves them nothing ELSE to hold against these folk but their beliefs.
They have punished them without a trial, or even the accusation of a crime, a form of persecution most folk whine about only when they are on the recieving end, and crow about when they are on the giving end, a disgusting and revolting bit of hypocrisy that shows the true nature of these monstrous beliefs in a hideous "deity" who slaughters and tortures the innocent for amusement.
You can believe in it all you want, just as I can believe the world would be a far better place without you lunatics - and I'd even stand up FOR your right to believe it.
But the moment you propose taking that right away from others - YOU should lose it first, period.
Of course, if yer like most folk I am just wasting words, cause they hold even to their own supposed morals only when it is safe and convenient to do so....
Just to make sure you truly understand, loud and clear.
I feel the same way about FLDS as you do, and to be blunt, I feel the exact same way about YOU.
The DIFFERENCE is, FLDS never openly proposed to strip an entire faith of it's legal rights for the sake of their beliefs, you have, and this makes you WORSE in my eyes than anything they have ever done.
How would you like someone proposing to do THIS...
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Assimilating them is exactly what we should do, not the pansy PC way the State has gone, sending them to foster parents who will be sensetive about their ridiculous faith. Wipe their cult from the face of the Earth. Lock up their religious leaders where they can't spread their message, burn their "holy" texts, and ensure that from this point on, no human being will be enslaved by their fundamentalist lunacy ever again.
To YOUR equally "ridiculous" faith ?
Cause I'd have NO problem with that at all.
So, if you want it done to FLDS, then let's be fair about it - we start with YOU, do unto them second and work our way down the list.
Still sound like a good idea, you twit ?
And as a final note, how the hell can you claim respect for our country and it's laws on one hand, and then propose something right out of Joe fucking Stalins playbook on the other ?
You don't defend your county by pissing on everything that makes it worth defending, moron.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I'm down with that on one condition.
I get to start with you mainstream christian fucks first.
Are you including me in "you mainstream Christian fucks"? I suppose I could see how it would look that way. I'm an Atheist. I would just as soon see what I talked about done to all of the militant religions out there, not just these pathetic little fringe cults.
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Believe me, I would be MORE than happy to even *kill* the whole fucking lot of you, Christians, Muslims, Zionistas, and every goddamn "true-believer" on the planet who thinks they have some kind of divine fucking right to force their morals and beliefs down the throat of everyone else.
Amen.
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But I would never, EVER, not in a million years try to force my standards, morals or beliefs down their throats, because you know what - I consider that to be worse.
Meh, I have to disagree there. You can live a perfectly happy life with someone else's moral standards rammed down your throat (we all do, anyway; did you ask society to tell you what's acceptable and what isn't, cause I sure as hell didn't), but if you kill 'em, they're just dead.
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You got a right to believe what you believe, but you AIN'T got no right to force that shit on anyone else, or attempt to revoke someone else's right to believe...
You see, we seem to differ in opinion on just where a "right" comes from. You seem to think that everyone automatically has these rights. I don't believe that. Rights are taken, not given. If you have the capability to do something and get away with it, say killing someone, for instance, then you have a choice. You can either claim the right through action and do it, or you can leave it and walk away.
Did the American colonists sit around and wait for something to give them their rights? No. They chose, and acted, claiming the right to self-governance through killing those who would take it away.
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Might I remind you that the original bullshit warrant that sparked this was pitched out like the worthless trash it truly was today, and of course the State means to cover it's ass, but that and the lack of charges leaves them nothing ELSE to hold against these folk but their beliefs.
Might I remind you that I don't care. It's their beliefs that I held against them from the start. Forcing young girls to marry and have children? Yeah, that's a big deal, but where did that practice come from? Their beliefs. Eliminate the cause, their beliefs, and you eliminate the effect, their crimes.
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They have punished them without a trial, or even the accusation of a crime, a form of persecution most folk whine about only when they are on the recieving end, and crow about when they are on the giving end, a disgusting and revolting bit of hypocrisy that shows the true nature of these monstrous beliefs in a hideous "deity" who slaughters and tortures the innocent for amusement.
Really, hypocrisy has little to do with human beliefs, and more to do with human nature. All people believe their opinions are right. We wouldn't keep them if we didn't. And all people like to see what they view as wrong punished, whether it has any religious significance or not. And no one likes to have their opinions, the "right" ones attacked.
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Of course, if yer like most folk I am just wasting words, cause they hold even to their own supposed morals only when it is safe and convenient to do so....
True, true. I am as big a liar and hypocrite as anyone else, I can admit that.
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...To YOUR equally "ridiculous" faith ?
Cause I'd have NO problem with that at all.
I don't have any faith for you to do that with, though I suppose you could try it the other way around and indoctrinate me into one of the many idiotic little religions out there.
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Still sound like a good idea, you twit?
Actually, yes, it still does.
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That is a very interesting response, and would that I currently had time to discuss these concepts at length, although I think we should split that discussion off into another thread if we do cause it's obviously going to veer pretty far off topic.
Me, I am not an Atheist, nor especially militant save in defense of the right to believe what one wishes and act upon it in accordance with respect to applicable law.
It's just that I find myself in a position where my own morality is forcing me to defend folk I would rather see wiped off the planet as a proxy variation on self-defense - cause if you let this kind of crap go when it happens to others, sooner or later that chicken is comin home to roost.
And I think from your responses that you understand that, and the incredible frustration of both having to defend them, and doing so in the face of folk who do not understand the reasons why.
Feel free to initiate a thread specific to the concepts and whatnot we've discussed, and I'll endevour to get to it when I can - there's a LOT of paperwork drudge goin on here and not half enough folk or time to do it, mind.
-F
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Frem- my guess is that charges won't be filed until they can straighten out the DNA... who fathered whom by which girl. But based on the number of underage pregnancies (past and current) there seems to be evidence of many crimes. What's not helpful is the sect's practice of lying and covering up for the perps, pretty much making everyone accessories after the fact, neh?
Also, in abuse cases it's fairly common to remove children from the home BEFORE charges are filed for child's safety. Now, that policy may give you heartburn but to claim the parents are being punished without charges being filed is to insist in NEW child-abuse policy, changing the rules in the middle of the game so to speak. So if you don't like that policy in general, then have a beef with THAT, in general- and not get all cranky about this specific case.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
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Given the history of the State's involvement, harrassment, the events of 1953 and the way this has come about - I do not whatever blame them for not cooperating with the State, especially when the State has not even played by it's own rules for the most part.
If the State can change the rules in the middle of the game, than it's not beyond the pale to suggest that perhaps those rules should not be as fixed as them claim, since the State seems able to violate them at whim without penalty.
By Texas LAW, as stated and quoted above, the State legally HAS to return the children.
Have they done that ?
And yes, I realize not bending the knee and sucking up complicates matters for them, but I can damned well see why they wouldn't - previous history tells me that a lot of folk won't be getting their kids back innocent or not, and they know that as well as anyone, so it would not be out of sorts to suggest that perhaps they don't TRUST the almighty, all knowing, omnipresent and benevolent State to do right by them.
If someone with clear intent to rob you asked you how much money you were carrying, would YOU be honest with them ?
And yes, I am fairly certain they might have some actual charges to be levelled, but how they would prosecute them legally after having violated the hell out of their own laws to obtain that evidence I couldn't tell you.
As I have stated before, I know how this is going to go at this point, regardless of how outrageous or illegal, simply because of the stupidity and gullibility of the folks whipped up into a witch hunt posse with the help of the media acting as an accomplice by printing statements so distorted or ficticious that six minutes of any kind of investigation would prove them base falsehoods.
And while I would like to see the guilty punished and the rest of this damn travesty ended, it's not going to happen that way unless I get my hands on a lot bigger and better legal or political crowbar than I got at this time.
My continuing concern is further abuses against others using these same tactics, and the response from folks who, having witnessed this, and seeing that their only recourse against it is violent force, choose a nihilistic solution when such is pressed against them.
Waco proved that if you engage the authorities, you will die.
El Dorado proved that if you cooperate with the authorities, you will lose all you have up to and including your family.
What message do you think THAT jammed into the closed minds of reclusive, fundamental religious types but that when it comes to their door, the only thing do to is to stand, aye and die ?
It's quite unlikely that the next time an incident like this happens, that they will even be able to negotiate, that well has been poisoned good and deep here, and I fear for the results.
Take it to the logical conclusion - what happens when it comes to that, and a slaughter happens, and angry members of the State pissed that folks dared defy them team up with a media content to publish their press releases as if it were the word from on high ?
What then happens to MY people ?
I know enough history to not like the answer to that question.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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I avoided this thread like the plague. Scanning it briefly tells me my hunch was right. Buncha giddy titillation masquerading as righteous indignation. The point of this whole affair was all too familiar. YOU WILL LIVE THE WAY THE GOVERNMENT TELLS YOU TOO!
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Some things have come to light during the endless drudging of all this paperwork and sorting and what's protected and what's not and yadda freakin yadda....
I am seeing a pattern here of 2-3 individuals exploiting this belief system for personal gain, profit and prestige, and hell yes, Jeffs is one of em - I will not, in fact can not, legally, name the others, but apparently much if not all of the problems stem from this small group of bastards who've let the whole of FLDS swing as cover for their own misdeeds while they either cover their ass or head for the hills.
(NOT happenin, now that we're aware.)
THOSE assholes are gonna fry, in fact I am hoping the State doesn't charge them cause the States case won't hold up when the evidence is tossed cause of a bad search - on the other hand, being that much of the evidence in the hands of us sorting it here was freely given, damned incriminating, and not client-clergy privledged, WE can turn and burn these bastards and it might *stick*.
But if the State tries them and blows it, that prevents us from doing so due to the double-jeopardy clause, at least this time around.
I also question the competence of State investigators because most, if not all of this info was in other forms publicly available and would not have been hard to put together at all, I suspect that some folks knew who the bad actors were but went blanket party on it anyway for reasons one can only speculate.
Now having a clearer view of the matter, I can state with certainty that what we have done here is punish the victims, unfairly and collectively, instead of the bad actors, who are more than likely going to walk without a good bit of finesse - but puttin em away still isn't gonna rectify the tremendous emotional damage and trauma the State has inflicted on their victims on top of it.
Doesn't mean I ain't gonna try to get it done though - sorry if that's a bit cryptic, there's legal limits to how much I can say if we wanna pursue this, and boy do I ever wanna, given how they not only fucked over the FLDS, but provoked the State into fucking over the FLDS as well.
-F
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It's good, I suppose, that you're digging into what's really going on. But if you take a few steps back, you have to see the hypocrisy here. By the standards being applied, the state of New Jersey would send the National Guard into Camden and seize all the children "for their protection". But this really isn't about protection. It's the state carefully choosing a way to make a statement. They pick stuff like this, where there's children, religion, or sex involved (triple play here) and use it as an excuse to put the word out. Live the way they say or else.
Listen to the fallback position of the people in a hissy over this. Their main beef is with polygamy and the weird way these people choose to live. The child protection issue is mostly a convenient excuse.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Nah. I don't care about the polygamy angle, if they can make it work and they are happy more power to them. The government has no business in the sex lives of consenting ADULTS.
That last bit is the important distinction as far as I'm concerned.
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Oh I am well aware of that, Sarge - problem is without enough popular or political support, all I can currently do on the custody front is throw legal caltrops under the State steamroller to slow it down while working every possible angle, but at THIS point, there's little hope of those folk ever getting their kids back no matter that most of em are innocent, and yeah that burns me pretty good.
Just too many damn fools willing to join the lynch mob, and too few who understand that allowing the rights of others to be violated invites the violation of your own.
It's bloody obvious that the salient point is that the State wanted to smash these folk, and all the rest is bullshit excuses after the fact, but the fanatic State worshippers will no more admit fault on behalf of their diety than the Bush worshippers will, and yeah-verily, I place both of those beliefs in the class of religion cause they require faith in direct opposition to evidence and sense.
But I DO intend to spike these bastards, and see if that buys a little cred I can swing behind popping some of those worse off kids free of the grasping tentacles of the Foster Care System, we're seein a couple of REALLY bad cases of what one might call seperation shock, some of em bad enough to require hospitalisation, and that ain't good at all.
Not to mention some folk within FLDS are starting to realize they've been played, and being under the microscope of the State looking for excuses and unable to act themselves, have indeed requested a little... rectification... of matters.
I have limited resources and personnel, and all on a voluntary basis at that, so I gotta play with table stakes here, you understand.
That being said, given what some of these nimrods have done, I don't whatever feel bad about tossing them to the State as a bone and parlaying that into prying loose some of these kids - it's gotten to the point where the pretenses are being dropped and the dirty-ugly business of REAL negotiation and threats are being exchanged, currently.
They want some heads, and to avoid being buried in big public lawsuits, and we want the parents who are obviously not whatever part of any wrongdoing to get their kids back....
So now it's down to cutting deals, is what it is.
Underneath the fiction and bullshit and technological veneer, this world works on the same principles as any other, and unlike others I refuse to be fooled by the illusion.
Ergo, I prefer to work it rationally, than believe in pie in the sky and that people who outgun me will play by the rules cause the rules say so.
I will get these folk whatever justice I can manage, but in all truth we both know it won't be enough - yet it's better than sitting on my hands pretending Gov knows best, or standing with the lynch mob handing out torches and pitchforks.
-F
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