Polygamist Pedophiles and Papal Pontifications
POSTED BY: deadlockvictim
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 01:32
VIEWED: 23329
PAGE 24 of 28
Quote:Actually Democracy is an Umbrella term for all governments that are formed through popular vote, including Democratic Republics. I'd note that the wikipedia definition of Democracy doesn't preclude the definition of Democratic Republic. Also the page you linked to for Republic included this:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Democratic Republic, actually, which semantic differences happen to be MUCH larger than most uneducated/under educated people would assume.
Democracy - government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
Democratic Republic - a form of government embodying democratic principles and where a monarch is not the head of state.
We happen to be both a Democracy and a Republic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic
Quote:I believe you have elections in the States
In republics that are also democracies the head of state is selected as the result of an election.
.If we took Democracy as a specific, as what the Ancient Greeks meant, there are no modern Democracies anywhere in the world.
Point is, its not a semantic difference. It's the Difference between calling a Ford Focus a 'Ford Car' and a 'Car'. All Democratic Republics are Democracies, but not all Democracies are Democratic Republics
.Quote:Erm, the City-State of Athens was a Democracy for some of it's existence. most weren't, Sparta and Corinth for instance.
The ancient Greeks were just a democracy.
Also the Democracy Practised in Athens was more similar to that of a Republic, as it was the template for the Roman Republic, which was the template for the American Republic...
Quote:The 'butt-love' thing was more a signature of Sparta, which wasn't a Democracy.
Then they started pukeing all over the place and had lots of unbridled butt-love right before they fell. Actually.... when put that way, maybe we're not so different from the ancient Greeks afterall. Only time will tell....
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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For anyone interested in the inner workings of the FLDS as told from the point of view of a woman who left the religion, I recommend reading Escape by Carolyn Jessop. I mentioned the book in an earlier post.
After reading this true story I have to say that my eyes were opened to the abuses perpetrated by the male members of this cult. The story she tells may be her own but it shines a light on the lives of the women and children who are often considered mere property by the men who they are "given" to.
I'm not saying that the tactics used by the authorities to separate children from mothers in Eldorado were totally correct, but if their actions enabled someone to leave that life, it may have been worth it.
Escape by Carolyn Jessop, published by Broadway Books.
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"Case or no case, DNA or not - the State has completely abused these people."
I would definitely say that about some people in CPS. But there are too many agencies that did good work and are doing good work to say that about "the State".
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Not worth it at all, as is clearly evidenced by Texas authorities proclaiming their next target. Stop saying that, everyone. What they did is completely unconstitutional and a tragedy for all of us, each and every American.
Things clearly should have been done to the parties that were actually guilty, but you will never convince clear-minded folk that the umbrella actions of the State were warranted or even desired, and the outcome for these families has been horific and tragic. I'm not going to read an Oprah book club of the month book to change my mind on that either. Might I also add that every single innocient person involved who's life there was upturned and delivered into the shit-storm all of their lives have become have nobody but Mrs. Jessop to thank for their current situation, in that her work got the soccer-mom sympaty force 100% behind the illegal and reckless actions of the State.
BTW... how much money did the author make off that book so far?
Couldn't get a figure of how many books sold or how much money she's making yet, but it is a NY Times Bestseller...
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/18/books/bestseller/0518besthardnonfict
ion.html
ESCAPE, by Carolyn Jessop with Laura Palmer. (Broadway, $24.95.) A former member of a fundamentalist polygamous sect describes her forced marriage to a much older man.
Current Position: 5
Last week: 2
Weeks on chart: 6
I hope that she really thought out what she was doing when releasing this book and how many people's lives she might negatively impact. Here's hoping that she can sheild herself from the reality that there are missing and physically injured children because of the raid and that these kids will likely never get over the emotional/spiritual/mental trauma that has been inflicted upon them. Maybe if just one kid was saved from her fate it's all worth it in her mind. I'm sure if she fails to console herself with that knowledge, the millions that are rolling in will allow her to buy a shit-ton of comfort food. 
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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As previously stated and for obvious reasons I am simply not qualified to comment on whether a christian belief or society is abusive or not due to overwhelming bias.
Haven't read the book, but it strikes me that the women have their own set of nastiness and manipulation or at least the potential for it, in such a social structure - so I wouldn't put that all on the men neither, mind you.
(And I find myself wondering if she had the guts to admit that in the book.. I doubt it.)
Now, individual actions - for future legal reasons imma lay off the details on that, I mentioned it above, and you could probably put two and two together from the books contents if you're smart, but I would ask you to NOT publicly comment cause there's a potential case outside of the States total fubar and we might just be able to press it.
Right now my primary concern, however, is averting what is very likely to happen when the State decides to go head to head with some group who's locking and loading for armageddon, since they can no longer count on the Constitution or even State Law to protect them from similar abuses.
And let me be downright flaming blunt...
It's NOT going well, ok ?
Do you really think these folk are going to listen to me now that it's become obvious their utter destruction is the States intent ?
Do you think they'll just stack arms and cooperate after what happened to FLDS ?
And so it comes to this - since they will not listen, tomorrow we're gonna try and convince the State folks what a jackass stupid idea this is, and if THAT fails...
Then we just pull up stakes and let it fuckin happen - and don't expect me to shed one bitter tear for any agent of the State when it does.
-Frem
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
-Henry Louis Mencken
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Then they'll just make a made-for-TV movie of it all and the big bucks start rolling in. Pissery of the Constitution is a hot commodity these days. "A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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6string, Frem - maybe you should take the time to read the book before condemning it and the author.
Jessop tells of life inside the Colorado City FLDS group from her childhood until the time she realizes that her life and the lives of her six children will be forever beyond their own control.
I don't think she wrote the book simply to cash in - and it was written well before the Texas raid -
Look, I have always been pro individualism - live and let live is a personal rule, but to see someone basically brainwashed from childhood to be subservient to a group not of your own choosing seems to do nothing to promote individualism. I'm certainly not against anyone's right to choose what religion or lifestyle they want to follow, but I respect a persons right to make their own decisions and not be led by the nose by some false authority figure...(ditto-heads)...
So, say what you will about Texas law - it is what it is - and these guys love to be enforcers... I don't like to see families broken up any more than you, but cults that break laws must understand that no matter what they believe and practice, there will almost certainly come a time when they will be put into situations where they will face some form of prosecution. Look at the history of Mormonism - these folks seem to thrive on it and in fact use that prosecution as a teaching tool, or I should say a brainwashing tool...
Read the book or not, i really don't care, but before painting the FLDS as a homey little commune like Little House on the Prairie, at least try to understand everything that is involved.
And, 6string - i don't know about Oprah book club of the month, but if a book is worth reading - i will damn well read it... kay?
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I didn't condemn it at all, in fact if the State had left well the hell alone or even played by the rules - it could have sparked all manner of social and moral pressure upon them and inspired folk to take action within the law to discourage or influance that behavior.
I suspect that was probably the idea.
I only pointed out that I was dubious whether she would admit the women in such schemes also have their own pecking orders, social drama, control issues, plots and plans and the like - I've dealt with polygamist folk before and although I will not specify, I do know this.
Quote:
Look, I have always been pro individualism - live and let live is a personal rule, but to see someone basically brainwashed from childhood to be subservient to a group not of your own choosing seems to do nothing to promote individualism. I'm certainly not against anyone's right to choose what religion or lifestyle they want to follow, but I respect a persons right to make their own decisions and not be led by the nose by some false authority figure...
You and me both - of course, I have an issue with the State doing it via public school as much as I do any other cult, that's one reason why I feel the kids lot hasn't really improved much.
CFBR kinda surprised me because they sat the boys down and asked THEM what they wanted to do, how they felt about matters, and where THEY would like it to go from here, CPS might have shit bricks over that, but so far the Boys Ranch folk have really impressed me with their handling of the situation, and I'll be owing some folks in BACA* a case of brew over that one...
As for the rest, I never once painted FLDS as a bunch of innocents, only that the actions of the State were going to be (and eventually WERE) more abusive than anything they faced at YFZ, and in addition to that called this thing dead-bang top to bottom from the bullshit phone call, to the lies and media distortion, to the abusive treatment of the families and finally, Texas authorities choosing to continue this destructive practice if unchecked.
The means to address the problem were already there, within TX Law and CPS policy, all of which were completely violated in spirit and in fact by the State, in a wholesale orgy of destruction visited upon them not for their crimes, but because they were different enough that the general mass of the populace would easily accept their vilification with the help of a compliant media.
There's a big difference between admitting there is a problem and "fixing" it in a way so utterly destructive and counterproductive that no one in their right mind could possibly support it.
Remember, I wanted certain of these folk arrested and tried for specific crimes as individuals before even this, and in spite of sufficient evidence and probable cause, the FBI would not budge one damned inch from their zero-enforcement shell game, which eventually pissed off the USDOJ and things went all cowboy from there - and now that they've had a taste of hoo-rah, they're fiending for more, and eyeballing people who WILL kill some of them rather than be masscared like what happened in Waco, or functionally destroyed like what happened here.
We HAD the ability to do this thing right, the powers that be chose not to do that, instead preferring a public lynching that has nothing to do with justice and everything to do with showing the iron fist of the State in threat to those who would live outside of it's constant nosy nitpicking.
Make no mistake, this is about CONTROL, not justice, and transferring that control from a madman like jeffs to the madmen who spawned this travesty is not a net benefit for those people in my opinion.
I was all for removing the bad actors and pushing to have it done before most of you even heard of FLDS, but in such a way that did the least amount of harm to the least amount of people, and that sure as hell isn't what happened here.
And now I gotta get back on the horn with some folk and try like hell to avert further stupidity by pointing out that not only are they li
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I didn't condemn it at all, in fact if the State had left well the hell alone or even played by the rules - it could have sparked all manner of social and moral pressure upon them and inspired folk to take action within the law to discourage or influance that behavior.
You may be right about that.
Also, I stand corrected. I re-read your post and note that you did not condemn Ms. Jessop. Sorry -
Quote:
And if you'll excuse me, I gotta try to get across to them the horrors that exist in that can of worms they're trying to pry the lid off right now....
you're excused... good luck with that
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Aaarrgh!
The unoffical position taken by TX officials seems to be..
"Bah!, they wouldn't dare, and even if they did so much the better, saves the trouble of prosecuting them!"
So, at THIS point of matters, for legal reasons there will be absolutely no further discussion of that end of the topic, and any further discussion will focus soley on FLDS and trying to sort out that mess.
One item of note - heard from the folks of the girl who refused the pregnancy test, she's fourteen, mind you.
She finally caved to pressure (not a legal order, just constant hasslement about it) and gave em their damn test, which came up negative, and since they were unhappy with this, demanded she do it again... four more times, till she finally broke down in a squalling ball screaming "What do you WANT from me!!!" before they hauled her off to foster care god knows where.
I'm sure that made a GREAT impression on her and her family.
One family has (successfully) filed a damn restraining order against CPS, and the District Judge not ONLY found they had cause and reason, but has ordered CPS to disclose the whereabouts of their other two children and demanded the hearing required by Texas law - so far CPS has not complied and shows no intent to do so, at this time risking a finding for contempt.
http://sev.prnewswire.com/legal/20080514/LAW05014052008-1.html
And for even more legal jackassery, instead of properly serving the papers, they went to a blanket notice in the newspaper, and if you'll pardon the voice of experience speaking it's very likely those hearings will be deliberately held in places and at times selected to make it more difficult for the parents to attend.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700226177,00.html
On top of that they made the mistake of leaving their so-called individual family services plans where members of the public had access, thus resulting in certain less biased newsies getting a copy.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700225988,00.html
The Deseret News obtained copies of some of the family service plans from several different sources. Each had identical paragraphs and essentially said the same thing. Texas CPS officials characterize it as a "template" that was leaked, and not the official plans that will be submitted to the courts.
And I do believe Mr Parker is right in calling a spade a spade here.
The recommendations obtained by the Deseret News make no mention of any requirements for the parents to leave the FLDS faith, or explicitly say to move off of the YFZ Ranch. But an attorney representing the FLDS Church said they are underlying themes.
"A safe living environment sounds just fine, but what they mean is get off the ranch," said Rod Parker. "It asks the parents to admit many of the false premises this raid was based on."
Also mentioned is the euphamistic "Psychiatriac Evaluation" - gee, how would YOU like to undergo one of those at the hands of a pyschiatrist who, being employed by the State, has a certain inclination to see things the way the State wants them to ?
Kind of like those doctors that the MD Public School system reccommends, like Richard Bacharach, that have this most interesting habit of diagnosing ADD and prescribing Ritalin 100% of the time the school reccommends they "evaluate" a kid.
Perhaps they should ask those people down at Hill Country Community Mental Health-Mental Retardation Center to do the evaluation - oh wait, that's right, they didn't quite see things eye to eye with the State and wound up bounced from the job for it....
BTW - The actual text of those accounts is available in PDF format HERE.
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9238520?IADID=Search-www.sltrib.com-www.sltri
b.com
I DO suggest you read them, and remember these are trained and credentialed mental health personnel making these statements.
I stand by my words - while a FEW individuals within the system have become appalled at what is going on and have chosen to assist as is within their power, as a whole the State H
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