Polygamist Pedophiles and Papal Pontifications
POSTED BY: deadlockvictim
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 01:32
VIEWED: 23329
PAGE 14 of 28
Quote:As you say Frem, it is exactly like the pro-lifers who don't give a shit once the baby is out.
And to be blunt, I don't think not one of you gives a shit about any of these kids whatsoever,
Kids are just a easily exploitable excuse to justify their political agendas of control.
If they truly cared about any of these kids, they wouldn't think state custody was that much more of an improvement in the kids' welfare and lives.
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Not that anyone really cares, but for what it's worth, an update.
Attorney Tip Hargrove, who represents two FLDS women, elicited Perry's admission that he has never spoken with a leader of the FLDS nor read the church's doctrine. The courtroom broke into laughter when he said he has gained his knowledge through press accounts, though he takes them "with a grain of salt."
Perry said he has found much to be admired about the FLDS. The mothers are loving and respectful of their children, he said. But, he said, the culture is abusive. "The environment is authoritarian."
The few choices that church members have are often false choices, he said.
Yes, Perry believes the culture to be abusive.
Hell, so do I - but we need to do more than just shuffle them from one abusive culture into another.
Of course, had you asked me the same question about most faiths, I would also state that they are authoritarian and abusive.
And of COURSE these folk are insular, suspicious of the state and hostile to it's agents, given incidents like this they got reason to be, and that goes for many religious communities, not just FLDS - all of whom are shitting bricks and thinking some really scary, not to mention stupid, things right now.
Perry is dead on that they should have had an intervention team on standby if they were gonna do this, and while he and his folk are doing what little is possible given the situation, there's also the matter of simply not knowing enough ABOUT it to be fully effective since his only information source up to that point was from media sources that have already been proven guilty of shading the truth - from our accounts, several FLDS members have come forward to offer detailed information, both folks hostile and friendly to FLDS, and I hope that knowledge is put to good use, as I can think of no one better qualified to use it than Perry and his team.
If they're gonna pull em out of there, then these kids deserve something better than the hellhole of the Texas Foster Care System in response, otherwise it's just out of the frying pan and into the fire.
Now...
Fact, of all the girls, only twenty pregnancies, and only five underage - I remark that this is better than the national average for that region of Texas, and note that those five cases should be prosecuted, with the caveat that they'd damn sure better sort out whether the search as a whole gets tossed before they try.
I will also note that if you examine the Texas Foster Care System closely, they have this exact SAME problem on a far worse scale - so, umm, how is this going to improve their situation any ?
Fact, "Voss acknowledged that DNA samples have already been taken from children, without approval of their court-appointed attorneys."
"Earlier today, Voss testified that on the first night of what would become a days-long raid, her team of child protection investigators interviewed several girls under the age of 17 at the FLDS ranch under "intimidating" circumstances."
Fact, NO CRIMINAL CHARGES HAVE BEEN FILED.
Fact, Parental rights have been terminated in spite of this.
And THAT, is where we drew the line.
Now, we got a set of hearings between now and June 5th, which is the deadline for the state to make it's case - something they had NO intention of actually obeying till some folk applied the hammer.
And yes, the hammer got applied, and it's GONNA be applied.
We're a nation of laws, not a fucking lynch mob you bunch of berks, and we can at least TRY to PRETEND it once in a while.
Since they've already went and done DNA sampling without a warrant, a further violation of law and procedure, we're just gonna press em to the wall - if with stolen DNA in hand, they STILL cannot prove abuse, they WILL be handing the kid back, if they wanna monitor things afterwords that's up to them and they can work that out with the ACLU and FLDS leadership in such a way as they can all tolerate.
And if they wanna bitch about education, that's a secondary issue and it sure doesn't help wh
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Finn, maybe Citizen is thinking you're me? I don't think the entire Church should be responsible, legality-wise, for pedophilia. I do think the immediate supervisor who knew about said acts and hid them should be held responsible. It wouldn't hurt to have all priests undergo some sort of psych rundown before ordaining them (maybe they do this now, I don't know). I think the home diocese should furnish counseling for the victim.
As for the kids and moms at the ranch. I feel for them, I do. I remember when I 'became a woman', my father joked that in some cultures and older traditions he would now select the best warrior or richest man in the clan and I would be forced to become a wife and mother. I was horrified. He smiled and asked me if I was glad we lived in a modern society. I was glad, very glad. I was in 4th grade.
I don't want the kids taken out of loving situations. This process worries me greatly. I'm familiar with foster systems and they're not that great. Let's hope the kids that need removed and the adults that need a boot to the head get what they need.
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Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown
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Quote:No I was thinking of Finn. He can rarely admit he's a said something, even when you quote him.
Originally posted by thatweirdgirl:
Finn, maybe Citizen is thinking you're me?
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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I have to say Frem, I was wondering if you'd turn against your hero Perry once you found out his views were different from yours. And I have my answer.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Frem, un-bunch your undies, okay? I know your love of children colliding with your hate of government is causing all sorts of mental static, but you're getting downright hysterical.
I think I understand what you're saying, but unfortunately events have overtaken process. I don't know as I care at this point whether what was done was "by the book". If the testimony is such that a large number of young girls are pregnant, were pregnant, or have had sex, the FIRST priority is- or should be- to get those kids someplace safe. Now, I have no idea about the Texas foster care system. If that's not a safe place, what are the alternatives?
I do remember reading about this group in the LA Times more than a year ago, and I wondered mightily why something was done then.
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:Citizen is just doing what Citizen does - looking for an excuse to through a fit.
Originally posted by thatweirdgirl:
Finn, maybe Citizen is thinking you're me? I don't think the entire Church should be responsible, legality-wise, for pedophilia. I do think the immediate supervisor who knew about said acts and hid them should be held responsible. It wouldn't hurt to have all priests undergo some sort of psych rundown before ordaining them (maybe they do this now, I don't know). I think the home diocese should furnish counseling for the victim.
As for your opinion, I agree - take down the bad guys, but don’t blame everyone for the actions of a few simply because they share the same church.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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How does one 'through' a fit? 
.
And you, Finn, are the only person to throw a fit so far.
Finn is just doing what he always does, lying. He's a compulsive liar though, so whatever.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Rue - my work is based on his, and to be bluntly honest he's probably forgotten more about this specific issue than I am ever likely to know, and basing it off a *much* better education to begin with.
They sure hell didn't give him much to work with, which was quite negligent of them given that they wanted him to testify as an expert witness without proper background material - far as I am aware of that issue has since been rectified.
Besides which, like I hinted at before - my bias against these religions doesn't exactly qualify me to give a neutral opinion, as I think they are all abusive, just in different manner and degree.
People are human, and everyone makes mistakes, but Perry is a person of strong conviction and he will give the best he's got on it - and even HE says the question of where they are better off is keepin HIM up nights, cause it's a damn difficult one full of moral, legal, and psychological implications with pretty high stakes and no room for screwups given the potential lifelong impacts here.
Siggy - The hysterical tone comes from saying something in underlined bold italic over and over emphasised only to be told I didn't say it, or meant something else, and I am right pissed about it when backed into a really hard corner with a lot of work to do, not half enough people or resources to do it on, and trying to put a chill pill to folks who are gettin some damn crazy ideas and might act on them if it becomes apparent that the State no longer has to play by the rules.
So it's VERY important that the State comply with it's own laws, at least in helping put a brake on that kind of stupidity... and if I sound frustrated to the point of pyschotic, that'd be about par for the course.
Quote:
Now, I have no idea about the Texas foster care system.
It's horrific, truly horrific - see the research links included above, or go do some digging, this is between the devil and the deep blue sea here.
Quote:
If that's not a safe place, what are the alternatives?
Ain't many, we're workin on that as hard as possible cause THAT needs an answer and doubledamnquick, especially if it's gonna require private funding, which is maybe doable - but a lot depends on those hearings, and we need to know at least a rough estimate of how many cases we gotta deal with, and whether the Mormons will assist us in this - I know they are not connected with FLDS, and that they don't wanna foster that perception cause they're scared of staring down the same State owned gunbarrels, but they COULD be a lot of help in this, and getting the State to act within the bounds of it's own laws would go pretty far in setting those fears at ease.
As for hearing of them before, believe me, I got my own axes to grind with FLDS and others, but those are my axes and I'll grind them when it's not likely to hang innocents out to dry - once we got the custody and safety of the innocents resolved, then we'll see about grinding them...
But first things first - get the innocent out of the crossfire.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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I now see what you mean by the State playing fast and loose cutting off ties/ options of groups that might help, like the Mormons. I hope to god- or whatever- that they haven't been scared off.
Unfortuantley with a disabled hubby and child, I wouldn't be much of a helping hand foster-wise. But if it comes to $$$.... THAT I can help with. Let me know.
As an FYI, I thought the whole Waco incident was grossly, grossly mishandled. As I see it there were two choices: leave, or bust down the door. The long standoff was just... stupid. If I'd been in charge I would simply have faded from the scene. Left a couple of guys in the background just to keep tabs on who's going in and out, making sure that food is still being delivered, that children are not being harmed a la Jim Jones. Let Koresh go on and on about his enemies "out there" but after a few months of nothing in view, eventually it wears thin. But keeping a big, intimidating military-style presence just played into Koresh's paranoid teachings... which at that point wasn't paranoia anymore it was fact.
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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