Do you support our current president?
POSTED BY: canttakesky
UPDATED: Tuesday, December 21, 2021 17:33
VIEWED: 12746
PAGE 11 of 15
Quote:My SOs headlights were broken by a cop simply because my SO was a "hairbag". It's one thing to respond to what people DO. it's entirely another to prejudge an individual based on extraneous circumstances.
I think the police are aware that different situations call for different responses. I don’t think the police apply the same rules across the board, nor do I think they should. How an officers deals with an 80 year old woman in a relatively safe neighborhood should be completely different from how they deal with a 25 year man in a rough neighborhood. I don’t really see anything wrong with that.
But, if you're telling me that's OK, then what you're saying is that police-work makes people prejudiced.
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Finn, Finn, Finn ... once again your distortion of the common english langauge boggles the sane mind.
Tasers are sold AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO GUNS. In other words, where you would once pull out your gun, you pull out a Taser. They are NOT sold as an alternative to batons.
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Jeeze man, get a grip. Or even a clue. Or a life. Or something that doesn't automatically turn you into a brown-nose for every jackboot that comes along.
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Quote:I’ve already been through this Signym. Numerous times in this discussion alone. You’re not saying anything more then rehashing the same unsupported generalizations - except your now claiming that generalization includes claims of racism as well.
Originally posted by SignyM:
My SOs headlights were broken by a cop simply because my SO was a "hairbag". It's one thing to respond to what people DO. it's entirely another to prejudge an individual based on extraneous circumstances.
But, if you're telling me that's OK, then what you're saying is that police-work makes people prejudiced.
Quote:Rue, I don’t think it takes a rocket scientist to understand this and it certainly doesn‘t require any distortion of the English language. In simple terms: Guns are very high on the force continuum; tasers are very low. They are not in the same category. If your ideology will not allow you to think beyond simplistic jingles, then that’s your lack of understanding.
Originally posted by rue:
Finn, Finn, Finn ... once again your distortion of the common english langauge boggles the sane mind.
Tasers are sold AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO GUNS. In other words, where you would once pull out your gun, you pull out a Taser. They are NOT sold as an alternative to batons.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Finn, I'm merely restating what you've already said. Your contention seems to be
I’ve already been through this Signym. Numerous times in this discussion alone. You’re not saying anything more then rehashing the same unsupported generalizations - except your now claiming that generalization includes claims of racism as well.
Quote:but then you undercut your own argument by saying
As I said, many people don’t really care about the real issues here. They have decided to adopt this simplistic view that police are bullies, and that‘s all there is to it. You simply will not even entertain the idea that there could possibly be another dimension, and neither will many others.
Quote:and
Due to the likelihood of a criminal being black, as opposed to white, it’s probably true that more officers are more likely to exceed appropriate behavior with a black person then with a white person...
Quote:And that, friend, is prejudice. You may not see anything wrong with it, but that's what it is: reacting to people not on the basis of what they're doing, but on the basis of extraneous circumstance. Have you ever heard of being pulled over for DWB? I'll let you figure that out, but for the moment let's say that you have fully agreed that police are, and should be, prejudiced.
How an officers deals with an 80 year old woman in a relatively safe neighborhood should be completely different from how they deal with a 25 year man in a rough neighborhood. I don’t really see anything wrong with that.
Now consider that everyone on this board - except you- has either had a/several negative encounter(s) with police, personally knows someone who's had a/several negative encounter(s), or personally knows a police officer (or other law enforcement officer) who has either admitted to harassing, assaulting, raping or robbing civilians or who knows someone who has. That's damn near 100%, Finn, and not a statistical anomaly. Chris, Frem, my SO and my cop friends, Rue and her family member.... you start totaling up personal experiences and then you start to realize it's not cherry-picking ... it's a widespread experience.
So maybe you live in an exceptionally nice place and your own personal bubble, and you have never personally experienced or personally know someone who's experienced a crime against their person/ property by a uniformed officer, but you can't deny the personal, direct experiences of so many people from such a diverse population. (well, okay, maybe you "can" but that would put you in the realm of Auraptor-land and not the rational person I believe you are.)
But lets' take this conversation in a different direction... let's assume that these crimes- which are widespread enough that this population of intelligent and mostly white folk knows about them- are committed by a small minority of officers who besmirch the reputation of police everywhere.
What then?
How does the average COP react to a fellow officer who's a bully, or worse? Do they report them? Turn them in? And if not- why not?
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Quote:No, what you are doing is taking statements out of context and manipulating them to make your own point.
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Finn, I'm merely restating what you've already said.
I’ve already been through this Signym. Numerous times in this discussion alone. You’re not saying anything more then rehashing the same unsupported generalizations - except your now claiming that generalization includes claims of racism as well.
Let's restate a point I made in a different way:
A woman is walking down the street in a safe neighborhood, she sees ahead of her an 80 year old woman walking towards on the same side of the street. Is this woman going to feel threatened in this situation? Very likely not.
A woman is walking down the street in a rough neighborhood, she sees a young man walking towards her on the same side of the street. Is this woman going to feel threatened in this situation? Very likely she is. Many woman would claim that they would even change what side of the road they are walking on.
So considering the point you just tried to make, it stands to reason that you think woman suffer from a culture of bullying. Is that really what you think? Or more likely, there’s simply no way to logically and honestly get from what I’ve said to what you’re trying to claim I said.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Let's look at this a little differently:
A woman is walking down the street in a safe neighborhood, she sees ahead of her an 80 year old woman walking towards on the same side of the street. The woman is shabby, waving her arms wildly, and mumbling to herself.
A woman is walking down the street in a rough neighborhood, she sees a young man walking towards her on the same side of the street. The man is pushing a baby stroller.
Now this:
A man is driving through (in a more or less straight line) a rich white part of town at 2 AM. He's following all of the rules of the road, but he's black.
A white man is driving slowly through a very poor part of town at 2 AM. He circles the same block several times.
Or this:
A well-dressed young black man is walking out of the Chemistry building at 2PM, laptop in-hand.
A young white man is jogging at 6 AM through a neighborhood of apartments.
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Situational awareness should encompass what people are doing as well as the color of their skin and their neighborhood. I have been threatened by young black men who made a POINT of acting threatening. I've also been around young black men who made a point of behaving oppositely. I know people who grew up in very violent neighborhoods who were never part of a gang. For every young man who is a criminal, there are at least three who are not, even in the worst neighborhoods. So the idea that one should treat everyone according to a stereotype is not only prejudicial but also dangerous.
Quote:Actually, I do, altho I can't figure out how you got that from my statement. How did you reach that conclusion?
So considering the point you just tried to make, it stands to reason that you think woman suffer from a culture of bullying. Is that really what you think?
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Quote:No. It’s not. If you are in a part of town where there is a reasonable likelihood that a person will be a criminal or just pose a danger to a person, then you would be foolish to ignore the potential danger, just because of some high-minded nonsense about prejudice. You’ll find it to be very difficult to preach on the RWED board about racism and the evils of authority, if your on the side of the road dead because you decided to apply some high-minded pseudo-morality to a situation that required a rational judgment.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Situational awareness should encompass what people are doing as well as the color of their skin and their neighborhood. I have been threatened by young black men who made a POINT of acting threatening. I've also been around young black men who made a point of behaving oppositely. I know people who grew up in very violent neighborhoods who were never part of a gang. For every young man who is a criminal, there are at least three who are not, even in the worst neighborhoods. So the idea that one should treat everyone according to a stereotype is not only prejudicial but also dangerous.
Quote:So you think women are bullies? I disagree. I don’t think that there is anything bullying or racist about a woman who makes a judgment to avoid a potentially dangerous situation. In fact, I think it is a smart thing to do.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Actually, I do, altho I can't figure out how you got that from my statement. How did you reach that conclusion?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Finn, I've lived in some dangerous neighborhoods and been victimized more than once, tussled with one person and.. actually managed to survive.
No. It’s not. If you are in a part of town where there is a reasonable likelihood that a person will be a criminal or just pose a danger to a person, then you would be foolish to ignore the potential danger, just because of some high-minded nonsense about prejudice. You’ll find it to be very difficult to preach on the RWED board about racism and the evils of authority, if your on the side of the road dead because you decided to apply some high-minded pseudo-morality to a situation that required a rational judgment.
Quote:Don't forget that statistically the person most likely to be dangerous is someone of your own family not a stranger on the street. Familiarity does not equal safety. That by itself should break down stereotypes, although I know it won't.
If you are in a part of town where there is a reasonable likelihood that a person will be a criminal or just pose a danger to a person...
So let's get back to the part where I asked about the honest cop who knows someone on the force who is a bully, or worse. What does that honest officer do?
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With proper situational awareness, race, age and gender are *irrelevant*, always have been.
The only thing that makes a difference is BEHAVIOR, and sometimes, not even that.
Remember folks, I make a de-facto policy of operating via psychological blind spots and the ability to enter a situation, act upon it and leave the area utterly unseen and unnoticed.
People see what they want to, and do not watch closely enough as a general rule, wasn't that long ago I discreetly followed and had pulled in a burglar who was using a UPS truck and uniform to case his targets around here, cause his observed behavior triggered my suspicions, and further investigation revealed the truck in question had been reported as stolen.
(By nature, I waited till that point to involve the Police, cause it's an asshole thing to sic them on someone without damn good cause.)
You don't have to succumb to fear, paranoia, or racism to protect yourself, all you have to do is know HOW.
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/pyramid.html
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html
And be willing to do so - and fear of arrest for merely acting in your own defense has so discouraged it that the general reaction is numb, meek compliance, something criminals DEPEND on to lower the risk of their actions and make what they do profitable.
And this behavior is sanctioned, encouraged, and abetted by the very police departments responsible for mitigating crime, yet encouraging cooperation over resistance actually encourages crime - and it sure doesn't do the folks who did cooperate and got dead anyway one whit of good.
The best way to prevent crime against you is to make the criminal UNABLE to obtain what he wants from you, by movement, positioning, or superior firepower - but mostly by recognizing his BEHAVIOR and acting in a fashion as to effectively deny him an easy mark.
I take this a little further, myself - when marked for an "interview" and the perp starts positioning, I return the favor, setting my OWN "interview" and by keeping the initiative and positioning on MY terms and timing, convince them they've just yanked the tail of a shark instead of a goldfish, while acting in such a fashion as to convey the concept that I mean to rob/mug/mangle THEM.
(While adopting through posture, gesture and facial expression the impression that perhaps their intended mark has a few very nasty screws loose upstairs...)*
Crooks may be stupid, but when it comes to their own little world they're not THAT dumb, most of em, and *will* realize what's going on at that point and withdraw, quickly - damn quickly in most cases.
It's a lot like diplomacy in that regard, he's spying you, your spying him, grinning all the while with really sharp knives behind your back waiting for the other to blink - nothing really happened, and nothings GOING to happen, unless you let it.
And yeah, sure, no one is 100% perfect all the time, but proper situational awareness is a zero-maintanence item once you make it habit.
-Frem
*Heh, Fremgirl refers to that as "flipping the creepy switch", it works real well if you study and emulate various items from the DSM-IV.
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Frem, what you said has all kinda sense to it. I grew up in an environment where you'd get mugged if you looked uneasy or scared.
But truthfully- I play the part of the unsuspecting innocent 'cause I'm usually itching for some action...
Bad Buddha Chrisisall
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