How the 'verse works.

POSTED BY: meimeiCobb
UPDATED: Friday, April 11, 2008 03:13
VIEWED: 14554
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MEIMEICOBB

Sunday, April 6, 2008 8:55 PM

This is actually something I created for my game Out of Gas, but I hoped I could get some critical feedback from some of the more avid players here.

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It's hard to ignore that Firefly and Serenity have a lot to do with space travel. Not deep space, just regular, between-planet space. In order to better play the 'Verse, first you should understand it. I'm going to do my very best to write it as simply as I can, but I can't make any promises - some of this stuff is a bit complicated.

The Solar System.

It's mentioned in the movie Serenity that when the first settlers came to the new 'Verse it had dozens of planets and hundreds of moons. Theoretically that is possible, but if you look closely at the map behind River's teacher, you'll notice that there aren't that many orbits listed. While there may be that many planets and moons, only a handful are terraformed. Cut dialogue from the episode "Our Mrs. Reynolds" says that there are over 70 terraformed worlds spinning away - which, if you take into account all the moons, that is entirely possible.

I'm talking a lot about possibilities, and I'll explain why. There should always be logic behind something, especially heavenly bodies, or else if you put your brain too hard to it, it'll explode. In order for a solar system to support that number of planets and still have them be habitable and 'Earth-norm" then there have to be several things that have to be present.

1. A slightly larger primary sun. The largest mass in the solar system has to be what scientists call a G-class star, which simply tells the temperature range the star is in. A G-class is the same kind of a star that we have, the Sun. If you know about our Sun, then you know that it's slightly cold once you get to a certain point out from it, and that it's very, very warm at a certain point. The same can be said of any sun and planets. In order to 'fix' that, you'd have to increase the size (and thus the temperature) of the central sun. (Numerically speaking, our sun's temperature is around 5,500 Kelvin. The sun in our 'Verse is about 7,000 Kelvin or so but smaller than usual class F stars, which is the next temperature bracket up from G.)

2. A second, smaller sun. I have mentioned primary since in order for the Firefly 'Verse to work you'd have to have at least a second heat source at the half-way mark in the solar system or further out from there. There are other ways around this, but not many, and not any that would make sense. The distances of the outer planets would not allow for how bright the sun we see is, which means a second source of light (and heat!) is needed. (Our own Neptune is a mere 30 AU [astronomical units], and at high noon at the methane planet the amount of sunlight would be the same as a dim twilight for Earth.)

Due to how bright Miranda is in Serenity, it has to be assumed that there is at least one other sun, toward the edge of space, that other planets either orbit around or are close enough to have the light and heat keep them from becoming ice worlds. It is for this reason that there is probably a very small star, greatly less in mass than the primary star, that orbits like one of the other gas planets, the difference of course being the energy production. The star would have to be cool, but warm enough to heat the space it orbits, and project light to worlds near it and even far from it. This star would most likely be a K-class on the lower end on the temperature scale, maybe 3,400 Kelvin. It would make an orbit around the primary sun, and because of it's size would do it faster than a planet at the same distance, causing the other planets around it to be 'carried' due to gravity.

It's possible that there is another heat source even farther out, a red dwarf, which is the smallest sized star and the coolest, but it's heat and light source would be unreliable. For the time being, until my brain can wrap around it, I'll say that there are just the two heat sources in the sola

LEOPARDFLAN

Sunday, April 6, 2008 11:19 PM

Thanks for that theory/explanation. That all never occured to me (although I admit that I was using the "never mind how it works, let's just assume that it does" meathod)

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MEIMEICOBB

Monday, April 7, 2008 3:13 AM

Yeah, my brain just can't wrap around something that I'm supposed to ignore the logic of. I'm very serious that my brain almost exploded when I was reading some of the maps out there; I studied astronomy to the point where I almost went for a degree in it.

I don't mean for anyone else's brain to explode, so hopefully if you know anything about astronomy, or are willing to learn here and there, you'll be fine and this should all make sense.

:D

http://outofgas.proboards88.com && www.myspace.com/amazonprincezz
{Please send a wave and say who you are.}

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Monday, April 7, 2008 3:56 AM

Until I have time to respond more, maybe try reading these threads for applicable ideas:
b=4&t=32318
b=4&t=31391

also:
b=4&t=32966
b=2&t=14838
b=2&t=2039
b=2&t=31962
b=2&t=8740
b=4&t=2671
b=8&t=24814
b=2&t=3998
b=2&t=26867
b=2&2345

and I think it is page 23 of the Serenity Officail Companion which shows most of the worlds of the Alliance.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Monday, April 7, 2008 4:57 AM

I don't understand your idea aboout Earth distance for terraforming - doesn't seem like compatible data.
Our Sun has light going out to Neptune, without interference. If an Astronaut is exposed to sunlight without sheilding, they will be burned from sunlight, whether in Earth orbit or Neptune range, right?
Our atmosophere, with "greenhouse" gases are what provide our "thermal battery" - charging up with heat during day and losing heat during night - but at a slower rate. If w4e did not have atmo, our days would be baking and life-prohibitively radiation high, and our nights would be life-prohibitively frigid. Our Moon has the same orbital distance from the Sun, and as soon as a part of it enters shadow, we know it becomes frigid immediately, because it has not atmo. Without atmo, our water would vaporize during daytime every day. Earth's core is molten lava,m but our crust is cool - our source of heat is external, the Sun's energy, in all forms. Our atmop protects us in sunlight, and slows the dissipation of heat during non-light period. (night).
Terraforming is the production (or manufacture) of atmosphere. On planets closer to the Sun energy, the terra forming would need to allow greater dissipation/loss of heat. On farther planets, the atmo would need to retain more heat, or generate more photosysnthisis to retain the heat.

Having a second sun in orbit woud be disaterous. Any world with a moderately stable temp resulting from correct atmo would have that atmo vaporized when the roaming second sun comes anywhere near. If dual suns, they would have to orbit each other, and no worlds in between their orbits could ever be stable.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Monday, April 7, 2008 5:23 AM

i don't see the velocity of the body along it's orbital path (speed around the sun) as affecting it's temp. Rotational speed, yes.
Distance from the Sun.
Rotational speed.
Size of body/gravitational force.

Distance will determine how much heat will need to be derived from phoptosynthesis or photoelectric transferance. (retaining heat from daytime top last through nighttime.)
Rotational speed determines how long the dissipation cycle must last (the atmo must trap enough heat to last until the next sunset, and musdt protect the day-side for the duration of the light period.
Size of body and gravitational force determines which greenhouse gasses must be used to for the outer atmo. Too light, and a lesser gravity will not hold them in "orbit" or attached to the world. Too heavy of molecule, and it will not be able to keep it's height (atmo height off the surface) - and the atmo will be too shallow, subjected to horribly unstable weather.

Some worlds might only be habitable at the poles, or maybe only at the equators.

These are the factors the terraforming engineers must face and conquer. The gas planets did not successfully terraform, according to our BDHs.

SIGMANUNKI

Monday, April 7, 2008 5:44 AM

@JewelStaiteFan:

Your post is pretty much bang on. The only serious problems being that terraforming is more general http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraforming and we do have an internal heat source. The latter showing themselves by way of geysers and volcanism among others.

What I think is a more fundamental problem with this idea is that it takes the show/movie way too seriously. The reality of the situation is that the map in the background is NOT meant to be accurate. The reality of the situation is that Joss is known (or notorious depending on your point of view) for ignoring these "universe things" because he doesn't care about them, he only cares about telling a good story. I could go on. But, to make the show/movie make logical sense, all I need say is that "it's just a tv show/movie" and we're done.

But, even if we take this idea seriously, there's going to be massive problems accounting for planets not running into each other. Not to mention the same for multiple suns. Wacky orbits to be certain in such a situation. All that in addition to the problems that you have rightfully mentioned.

At any rate, just another drive by posting. Have a good night

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

SPACEANJL

Monday, April 7, 2008 8:51 AM

There is mention of a gas giant at some point - Triumph is in the Georgia system - so the secondary heat source idea works.

At the beginning of the 'Train Job', Santo has three moons in the sky - I suspect they are inhabited. OVC mentions the use of such tech as gravity regulation, which would negate some of the issues with size, density and rotation. But people still use the terms 'planet' and 'moon' regardless of habitation, seemingly based on size - I would imagine a planet to be a larger, primary mass, the moons, the orbital satellites.

Terraforming is fun tech to speculate with. Some planets won't take (Bernadette is a rock with sealed biosphere, I think, from OVC) I speculated that the Junk Belt, out near Deadwood, is a terraforming event gone awry, a whole planet that came to bits. So I speculate that the tech post-dates the exodus from Earth, otherwise we'd have a whole raft of possiblities in our system.

MEIMEICOBB

Monday, April 7, 2008 2:42 PM

A second sun circling out past the normal ice zone would work - and terraforming on those planets wouldn't be detrimental, it would just need less. Add in the few gas giants out there as well, radiating the heat that they capture from the second and primary sun, and it in theory would work.

A space-walker out as far as Neptune wouldn't need as much shielding. By the time the light gets out there it's very weak and very spread out. Imagine that it's like a porchlight when you're out in the woods - you can see it, but does that help you? Not really. The area around you is still dark. So you get closer, and closer, until you're very close and then the light is actually helping you to see. The sun is the same way at those distances.

http://outofgas.proboards88.com && www.myspace.com/amazonprincezz
{Please send a wave and say who you are.}

MAL4PREZ

Monday, April 7, 2008 3:31 PM

I'm with JSF about orbital stability issues. A second sun would be heavy - much heavier than a planet, even if it's a small star. There's a certain amount of mass required before gravity can start fusion and "light" a star. Wikipedia says the minimum theoretical star mass is 75 times the mass of Jupiter. A body that heavy won't be sitting in a happy orderly orbit. The two suns would rotate around each other, and planetary orbits would be all messed up. Planets passing in between them are likely to get spun off into the Black, or maybe even shattered by gravitational forces. When you start talking three suns - whoa. There won't be many stable orbits, not inside or near these three suns. Stable orbits would be far outside.

Really, I just don't see any kind of pseudo-scientific hand waving that can make Joss's verse work, physically speaking. It's just not realistic. I have to agree with Sigmanunki - Firefly is not hard sci-fi. It'll never be astronomically believable.

If that ever bothers me (and it does cause I'm a physicist and former astrophysics major and a tad anal ) I go for engineering solutions. There's more room for fiction there. Maybe the terraforming tech is *so* good that it can minimize or maximum the sun's energy. Big lenses or shields in space, say, that focus or disperse sunlight so that Mercury and Pluto can be equally habitable. And if gravity is a problem - well, gravity is controlled on spaceships, why can't terraformed planets be given earth-normal 1g by giant gravity machines?

I know - it's complete BS. But in the end, I ain't in the FF verse for the science.

(It's still fun to talk about meimeiCobb! I'm not meaning to flame your suggestions. I love science threads. )

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