Psycho soldier kills puppy
POSTED BY: piratenews
UPDATED: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 14:17
VIEWED: 12385
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Video Of Marine Throwing Puppy Off Cliff Spurs Probe
www.kitv.com/mostpopular/15482127/detail.html#
www.jonesreport.com/article/03_08/030308_puppy.html
But killing 2.6-million Iraqis is OK.
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That (if real) was fucked up & unwarranted. It shows the numbing effect of war on young kids.
I guess some will say it was just a 'Taliban' puppy, though. That poor mutt came to a quick end, but that soldier's soul is gonna be missing something when it gets back home. Wanna bet dudes like that don't become alcoholic wife-abusers and shoot themselves at a later date?
Jeeze.
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I think the dog wasn't real after all!!! Ever throw a cat? I have (not to kill it- to get it to stop clawin' my leg), and if that puppy weighed what a smallish cat did, the toss at that speed is impossible due to it's weight- only a stuffed dog weighing very little could accelerate like that given the scruff-of-the-neck hold. Plus it spun in the air too fast to really weigh anything.
Damn, I guess it was just a sick joke.
Not funnyisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I think the dog wasn't real after all!!! Ever throw a cat? I have (not to kill it- to get it to stop clawin' my leg), and if that puppy weighed what a smallish cat did, the toss at that speed is impossible due to it's weight- only a stuffed dog weighing very little could accelerate like that given the scruff-of-the-neck hold. Plus it spun in the air too fast to really weigh anything.
You totally flunked physics , didn't you ?
Oh, maybe not...You were probably never exposed to any real 'sciency' stuff , at all , huh ?
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Quote:Please sir- enlighten me. I want to know when I eff-up....
Originally posted by out2theblack:
You totally flunked physics , didn't you ?
Chrisisall
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Quote:Okay Mr. Wizard, how do you throw a two pound sack of meat like a baseball without putting the force behind it's mass? I just watched it again, he tossed it at speed from the 'scruff of the neck' without a protracted wind up.
Originally posted by out2theblack:
You were probably never exposed to any real 'sciency' stuff , at all , huh ?
What? No answer?
Thought so.
Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Please sir- enlighten me. I want to know when I eff-up....
Originally posted by out2theblack:
You totally flunked physics , didn't you ?
Chrisisall
Do you really ?
Then do some wiki-google and look up things like :
'momentum' , 'laws of motion' , 'acceleration' , and 'centripetal force'...
The important 'education' is the one you seek for yourself , di-di...
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Quote:Oh, and someone found this...
Originally posted by out2theblack:
You totally flunked physics , didn't you ?
http://www.magic.org/store/product_info.php?products_id=4119
Still no words?
I admit when I'M wrong- but that's just me.
Victorious Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Okay Mr. Wizard, how do you throw a two pound sack of meat like a baseball without putting the force behind it's mass? I just watched it again, he tossed it at speed from the 'scruff of the neck' without a protracted wind up.
Originally posted by out2theblack:
You were probably never exposed to any real 'sciency' stuff , at all , huh ?
What? No answer?
Thought so.
Chrisisall
No pi$$ing match intended...If you want to know stuff about two-pound sacks of meat , you'll first have to employ that one within your cranium...Or , if you're not sufficiently motivated to do that , you could try tossing that one...
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Quote:So I should look up some words to understand the application of physical laws? Okay, stop being an idiot, and explain where I'm wrong, or is it just easier to go "Eh eh, nah enh!!!"
Originally posted by out2theblack:
Do you really ?
Then do some wiki-google and look up things like :
'momentum' , 'laws of motion' , 'acceleration' , and 'centripetal force'...
Explain to me how it's possible to get that weight to that speed WITHOUT proper application of force.
Oh, I already did that- it's a toy that don't weigh much.
Feel free to sound even more like an ass, though...
The impatient Chrisisall
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Quote:Yeah, I see your point about inertia...WAIT, NO I DON'T, CAUSE YOU AREN'T PUTTING UP A COGENT ARGUMENT- you just wanna fight!!!
Originally posted by out2theblack:
No pi$$ing match intended...If you want to know stuff about two-pound sacks of meat , you'll first have to employ that one within your cranium...Or , if you're not sufficiently motivated to do that , you could try tossing that one...
Well you lost already, Hans, don't make me drop you off the Nakatomi building.
Bruceisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
That (if real) was fucked up & unwarranted. It shows the numbing effect of war on young kids.
I guess some will say it was just a 'Taliban' puppy, though. That poor mutt came to a quick end, but that soldier's soul is gonna be missing something when it gets back home. Wanna bet dudes like that don't become alcoholic wife-abusers and shoot themselves at a later date?
Jeeze.
See , you were probably more correct on your first pass at this...
It's a sick joke , at best...
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Yeah, I see your point about inertia...WAIT, NO I DON'T, CAUSE YOU AREN'T PUTTING UP A COGENT ARGUMENT- you just wanna fight!!!
Originally posted by out2theblack:
No pi$$ing match intended...If you want to know stuff about two-pound sacks of meat , you'll first have to employ that one within your cranium...Or , if you're not sufficiently motivated to do that , you could try tossing that one...
Well you lost already, Hans, don't make me drop you off the Nakatomi building.
You may be awake and facing me , Son...
BUT , you ain't 'armed'...
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Quote:Clever, you are not without your finer points, but explaining where I'm wrong surely ain't one of 'em.
Originally posted by out2theblack:
You may be awake and facing me , Son...
BUT , you ain't 'armed'...
Wanna duck the question a 6th time?
Persistent Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:So I should look up some words to understand the application of physical laws?
Originally posted by out2theblack:
Do you really ?
Then do some wiki-google and look up things like :
'momentum' , 'laws of motion' , 'acceleration' , and 'centripetal force'...
Explain to me how it's possible to get that weight to that speed WITHOUT proper application of force.
Oh, I already did that- it's a toy that don't weigh much.
Yup , 'cause if you don't get the 'words' , you sure ain't gonna 'do the math'.
Mass X velocity...You contradict-yourself-is-all...
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Clever, you are not without your finer points, but explaining where I'm wrong surely ain't one of 'em.
Originally posted by out2theblack:
You may be awake and facing me , Son...
BUT , you ain't 'armed'...
Wanna duck the question a 6th time?
Nope , 'cause it's plain to me where you're coming from now...
You got the point in the first place , then you started to 'overthink' the problem...Suffered a meltdown , did ya...?
Not my mission to 'educate' you , is all..I've just given you the 'tools'...
" River , We're not telling people what to think , we're just showing them HOW..."
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Quote:6 and 0 for Out2, never let it be said that education = knowledge.
Originally posted by out2theblack:
Yup , 'cause if you don't get the 'words' , you sure ain't gonna 'do the math'.
Mass X velocity...You contradict-yourself-is-all...
Velocity can only be achieved with properly applied force, improperly applied force = questionable velocity, yet improperly applied force achieved the desired velocity with the 'puppy'. The varaible? The weight of the object, which must have been less than that of a real puppy. Conclusion?
TOY!
QEDChrisisall
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Quote:And it's plain to me you're one of 'those types' that can't back down from an error. Can't explain where I'm wrong , but too ego-fied to admit it. All it would take is two or three sentences to show me up, but 8 posts later we're still at "Eh eh!!"
Originally posted by out2theblack:
Not my mission to 'educate' you , is all..I've just given you the 'tools'...
[George McFly voice]
Real mature.
[/George McFly voice]
Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:
Originally posted by out2theblack:
Do you really ?
Then do some wiki-google and look up things like :
'momentum' , 'laws of motion' , 'acceleration' , and 'centripetal force'...
Explain to me how it's possible to get that weight to that speed WITHOUT proper application of force.
Oh, I already did that- it's a toy that don't weigh much.
Feel free to sound even more like an ass, though...
Never said there was not a 'proper' application of force...What does that MEAN , anyway ?
See here , for the unscientific folk out there , the Outcome of the Experiment depends upon the Assumptions one makes going in...
How do you KNOW , "it's a toy that don't weigh much" , and explain how you applied that Assumption in your Experiment to produce your Results...
Are you tellin' me that some Marines ordered a 'magic puppy' to produce an Abu Ghraib-style outrage ?
You've-painted-yourself-into-a-corner-is-all...
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Quote:No, I did.
Originally posted by out2theblack:
Never said there was not a 'proper' application of force...
Quote:It means that to hurl a baseball, you must cup the ball in your hand as you pitch it for maximum effect- you can't throw a baseball 50 mph by holding on to a loose string to throw it, likewise to get a two pound puppy sailing through the air at the speed visible on the video, you'd have to do so by either grasping it firmly around it's central mass to throw it (which he didn't), or take a really long wind up with a slower acceleration to maximum speed because of the hold on just skin & fur (which he didn't). Given the weight of a puppy, proper force to propel it was not employed.
What does that MEAN , anyway ?
Quote:It's an observation based on scientific principals, not an experiment.
See here , for the unscientific folk out there , the Outcome of the Experiment depends upon the Assumptions one makes going in...
Quote:I have- it's you who have not yet explained where I'm in error.
How do you KNOW , "it's a toy that don't weigh much" , and explain how you applied that Assumption
Quote:I profess no extraordinary psychic skills, but a guess would be a stupid prank not intended for mass consumption, or some such.
Are you tellin' me that some Marines ordered a 'magic puppy' to produce an Abu Ghraib-style outrage ?
Conclusive Chrisisall
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That was fairly obviously a stuffed dog. And the soldier was clearly just goofing around. I can't believe that this has been turned into such a big deal. He should get little more than public reprimand and the matter dropped. Our press is such a fucking freak show.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:
Originally posted by out2theblack:Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
That (if real) was fucked up & unwarranted. It shows the numbing effect of war on young kids.
I guess some will say it was just a 'Taliban' puppy, though. That poor mutt came to a quick end, but that soldier's soul is gonna be missing something when it gets back home. Wanna bet dudes like that don't become alcoholic wife-abusers and shoot themselves at a later date?
Jeeze.
See , you were probably more correct on your first pass at this...
It's a sick joke , at best...
Last time I looked , YouTube had taken down the video...'Course , it'll likely be re-posted somehow...
Meanwhile , 'snopes' is not conclusive , and will perhaps leave it up to the Marines to have the last word...At least they disapprove , because , authentic or not , it's sick and doesn't reflect favorably upon the Corps....
http://www.snopes.com/photos/military/throwpuppy.asp
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First off, not a soldier, marine. There is a difference, both sides will correct you on that issue (though especially the Army guys in this case). Second, civilian kids do stupid shit too the difference is that this guy is going to get his shit handed to him by the Corps. I'm an army brat, but I'll give the marines that much; they know how to punish fuck-ups.
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Yes it does look fake, and I surely hope it is. Still sick either way. This sort of thing should be, and is, frowned upon in the Marine Corps and hopefully he does get a public reprimand. Even if it was a joke. I know I was really pissed when I first heard about it and saw the video when I woke up this morning. Both my father and my mothers father were in the Marine Corps. My grandpa retired a Lieutenant Colonel and my father was stationed in Hawaii and then a Drill Instructor at Paris Island before he left the Marines to raise a family. I know both of them will be just as irked by this as I am.
Also, you two need to chill it with the physics lessons.
Edit: BTW nearly ever Marine I've ever met or heard of has had a love if not respect for dogs. This will likely not go over too well for those... I'll use the word "turkey" here in lieu of another.
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"When you can't do something smart, do something right." -Jayne quoting Book
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Quote:Do you really think ?
Originally posted by SergeantX:
That was fairly obviously a stuffed dog.
Then do some wiki-google and look up things like :
'momentum' , 'laws of motion' , 'acceleration' , and 'centripetal force'...
Quote:It prolly woulda come off more unreal if the sound on my computer was working well, I was just goin' off the image...
And the soldier was clearly just goofing around. I can't believe that this has been turned into such a big deal. He should get little more than public reprimand and the matter dropped. Our press is such a fucking freak show.
I can't believe PN presented it as fact...!!!
Gullible Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strangebird:
Also, you two need to chill it with the physics lessons.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strangebird:
Yes it does look fake, and I surely hope it is. Still sick either way.
Also, you two need to chill it with the physics lessons.
Why ? You're not 'physics-phobic' , are you ?
Seems some folk in this thread are...I left it as an option , for any interested folk , for them to "look it up later."
But , a certain aggressive poster has insisted on continually digging a deeper hole for himself...
That's OK , though , 'cause if you " give 'em enough rope " , or in this case , 'string' , eventually , they 'hang' themselves...
BTW , StrangeBird , I really like that Grumman Albatross avatar that you've begun using...One of my all-time favorite aircraft...About as near to a 'Serenity' that a mere-mortal can hope to own...Jimmy Buffett has one , and of course , it's very nice...A flying yacht....
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Quote:BTW Out2, have you stopped beating your wife yet?
Originally posted by out2theblack:
But , a certain aggressive poster has insisted on continually digging a deeper hole for himself...
I mean, that's what your argument comes down to, right? You need not prove me wrong, you only need to say I know nothing of physics, and that's that?
I didn't know you were a NeoCon...
You're NOT? Oh sorry.
It's what they doisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:BTW Out2, have you stopped beating your wife yet?
Originally posted by out2theblack:
But , a certain aggressive poster has insisted on continually digging a deeper hole for himself...
I mean, that's what your argument comes down to, right? You need not prove me wrong, you only need to say I know nothing of physics, and that's that?
I didn't know you were a NeoCon...
You're NOT? Oh sorry.
Ad hominem personal attacks is what you're good for-is-all...
Consider yourself a master-debater is all...No matter how much you beat your cranial-meat , you still ain't gonna 'get it' , are you ?
It's OK , though , you certainly have the right to remain-ignorant-is-all...
I gave you a few clues , di-di , but you're still too mentally lazy to 'look it up' , aren't you ?
That's why I don't give advice...The 'wise' don't need it , and 'the stupid' won't heed it...
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I seriously doubt this is fake, and let me explain why. The dog only goes about 5 feet into the air before going over the cliff, giving the illusion of a long toss, so there is more than enough strength in the throw, don't believe me get a 2 liter of coke and see how high you can throw it on an arc. The puppy weighs less and is being thrown by a very fit person. Also look at the way the animal swings back because it is bottom heavy right before he tosses it. The stuffed dog you showed was not able to move as it upsets the fur giving it a fake look. Personally I know people that would brag about burying a cat up to its neck and then dropping a running lawnmower on it, so this isn't too far fetched for me. The war doesn't make people like this it just brings out what is already there.
When there are no heroes where will we turn?
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Lemme put this in a different context for you.
Look, I like puppies too, they're cute, for the most part, furry and happy, sure.
But it's kinda hard to get worked up over this when we're doing as bad or worse to humans over there as a matter of policy, ok ?
Consider how effective the political dehumanisation of those people has been, that this incident draws more ire than children dying of dehydration cause we blew the water supply infrastructure to hell and gone.
And Chris has a right to be skeptical, this is a media that tried to sell us the decapitation of a damned G.I. Joe doll as the real thing, so it's not like a grain of salt isn't warranted.
All that bein said, I am more concerned with what we're doing to the HUMANS there, myself.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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The way I see it both sides are right to some extent on the physics of a flying puppy. While it is true that from F=mA(force=mass*acceleration)you can see in the form A=F/m that acceleration is inversely proportional to mass, assuming a equal initial force the lighter puppy has greater initial acceleration. But at the same time the heavier puppy has a greater kinetic energy at a given velocity (T=1/2mv2). Because drag is equal on both puppies, The kinetic energy of the lighter puppy is quickly overcome by drag while the heavier one has more energy to offset drag. This should mean that after a short distance the heaver puppy will have greater velocity.
It's been many years since I studied physics so I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
Personally, even though I love dogs, I don't see what the fuss is about. The ASPCA and PEDA kill millions of dogs every year and nobody makes such a fuss about that.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Lemme put this in a different context for you.
But it's kinda hard to get worked up over this when we're doing as bad or worse to humans over there as a matter of policy, ok ?
Consider how effective the political dehumanisation of those people has been, that this incident draws more ire than children dying of dehydration cause we blew the water supply infrastructure to hell and gone.
And Chris has a right to be skeptical, this is a media that tried to sell us the decapitation of a damned G.I. Joe doll as the real thing, so it's not like a grain of salt isn't warranted...
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
Thanks for that !, Frem...
I'm skeptical , too...Who wouldn't be ?
While Desert Storm was still going on , I took a returned 'veteran' A-10 pilot up in my aircraft a few times...
He vented his 'feelings' about the 'douchebags' on the ground that he'd had to nape-scrape to a crisp...
I'm sure he needed to vent...Just as he needed to persist with the dehumanization of the 'enemy' on the ground...
Most of whom were , of course , 'conscripts' that were force-marched into Kuwait by a monster of US creation...
I also knew a guy from 'our' side , a USANG soldier who'd been a grunt on the ground , and had seen first-hand the tragic results on the bombed-out highway , the 'kill-box' where the crispy massacre took place...I suspect that some of the
'young-uns' in this thread have never seen the photographs of those scenes themselves , and they might not , ever...
But , I have , and I guarantee they'll turn the stomachs of any folk who value their own personal 'humanity'...
My impression about P-N's post is that he "don't hold" with certain behaviors that cast US in a bad light , creating ever-more enemies for US...
Nor do I...
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
The way I see it both sides are right to some extent on the physic of a flying puppy. While it is true that from F=mA(force=mass*acceleration)you can see in the form A=F/m that acceleration is inversely proportional to mass, assuming a equal initial force the lighter puppy has greater initial acceleration. But at the same time the heavier puppy has a greater kinetic energy at a given velocity (T=1/2mv2). Because drag is equal on both puppies, The kinetic energy of the lighter puppy is quickly overcome by drag while the heavier one has more energy to offset drag. This should mean that after a short distance the heaver puppy will have greater velocity.
It's been many years since I studied physics so I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
You're still sharp , Kirkules...
I didn't want to have to explain the basic physics of the projectiles in question , because if someone doesn't get the
basic-basics , then they certainly also won't get the often-counterintuitive aerodynamics...
But , you did it concisely , probably better than I might've done...
Just hate having to fault folk for their fallacious , and almost invariably , unscientific , 'assumptions'...Especially when they persist in cherishing said assumptions...
But , some people juggle geese...Or , throw cats...
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Fremdfirma,
I am not devaluing what we do to humans, as I have probably made abundantly clear, I value all life equally. What I find horrendous is that at best, our troops think killing an animal is funny and at worst that they are killing innocent creatures for no apparent reason, which leads to worse implications for what they would do to those they felt deserved cruelty. As a veteran myself I love our troops dearly, but actions like that degrade our image in the eyes of those that would seek to befriend us and ad aid and comfort to the enemy.
When there are no heroes where will we turn?
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OUT2THEBLACK,
Strange that it is, I know exactly what you speak of.
Just from a pure tactics point, it was suicide to try moving an armored column down a straight highway with minimal AA support from a pair of barely functional ZSU-23's, which, as I understand were hit with mavericks on the first pass, followed by a straight run from the tail of the column on by the A-10 in question.
Brutal and inhumane that it was, that's what a war is, and that one act contributed significantly to ending the Kuwaiti Border Incident a lot quicker, so in lives saved overall I would have to grit my teeth and call it a plus.
Whoever sent that column, lined up like ducks in a shooting gallery, into an area swarming with american A-10s killed them sure as if he'd lined them up against a wall and shot them himself - that commander I would have shot, out of hand, myself, if he had worked for me.
Wars are terrible things, and terrible things happen in them, during them, which is why people with any sense don't want one, and they change people, make them into monsters by civilian reckoning, and once past that line coming back from it is hard for them - the black humor that is all that keeps you going "in the zone" can haunt you, literally, to death... and that is coming from someone who never served in a hot engagement, but carries no few ghosts of their own regardless.
I mean, unless you've been there and found amusement in the disembodied leg of an enemy trooper spasmodically kicking itself in a circle in the middle of the street, it's hard to understand just how "unhuman" a soldier becomes after a while, but make no mistake, this is what war does to the participants thereof.
I will paraphrase (since I don't have the book handy at the moment) a quote from the afterword of David Drakes "At Any Price" as a noteable summary.
"When they say war changes a man, they're being euphamistic, war drives a man insane by any civilian standard, capable of thoughts and actions you never expected, and if you have any concern about it, the time to think about it is before you send him into a war zone"
That's probably not even close, cause I remember him doing a much better job of it, the basic concept is there.
I don't agree with what they're doing or why they are there, but the grunt on the ground isn't who I would take that up with, not until they get back, because adding more factors for folks already in over their head can have no good result.
Nor do I, as a rule, level any judgement on conduct, no matter how unbecoming, of anyone currently in the hot zone - soldiers are soldiers, and since the day Grog threw a rock at Throg, have always been bloodthirsty, rapacious and capable of all manner of inhumane behavior, it is the very nature of war, what war IS.
Sure, he is responsible for his own deeds...
But who is responsible for sending him into a situation that so drastically warps folk to the point where they find humor in something like that ?
Why, we are, every one of us who did not act to their utmost to prevent it.
And we are to some degree, also responsible for his conduct, as we gave these poor souls weapons, training, and a mission and then sent them over there to make policy for us - which they do, often in ways we never would have imagined both good and bad.
Isn't this guys ass I'd wanna kick about it, if anything, he needs help he sure as hell ain't likely to get in any effective form from the VA, and isn't real likely to appreciate any time soon if he were to get it.
It's the folks who put our boys in the situation, and those who's cheerleading rolled out the red carpet to do it - that I have issue with.
To me it's a basic cause and effect issue, this conduct is an expected, anticipated and unwanted affect from a root cause that a lot of sensible folk tried and failed to prevent - disciplining one soldier for it, while a positive note, doesn't whatever address the root cause that created the problem in the first place.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not lear
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Quote:Effue you elitist psuedo-scientist. You wanna discuss physics in techno-speak detail instead of paying attention to the real-world application, go ahead. You ever use the term 'centrifical' instead of 'centripetal' I guess I should be all over your ass too, regardless whether I know what you're talking about, right? And in film terms, don't you dare say 'zoom in' when it's a track.
Originally posted by out2theblack:
I didn't want to have to explain the basic physics of the projectiles in question , because if someone doesn't get the
basic-basics , then they certainly also won't get the often-counterintuitive aerodynamics...
But , you did it concisely , probably better than I might've done...
This is exactly why I visit RWED less and less- the self-important ego-driven semantics that take the place of idea exchange.
Quote:I asked you to correct me, but you wanted to stroke your vocabulary instead- you're worse than McKay on Stargate Atlantis, at least he'd explain himself while enjoying his smugness.
Just hate having to fault folk for their fallacious , and almost invariably , unscientific , 'assumptions'...Especially when they persist in cherishing said assumptions...
Plus, you put inappropriate spaces before commas, and capitalize when there's no need.
The obviously Neanderthal-brained Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Effue you elitist psuedo-scientist. You wanna discuss physics in techno-speak detail instead of paying attention to the real-world application, go ahead.
This is exactly why I visit RWED less and less- the self-important ego-driven semantics that take the place of idea exchange
I asked you to correct me, but you wanted to stroke your vocabulary instead- you're worse than McKay on Stargate Atlantis, at least he'd explain himself while enjoying his smugness.
Plus, you put inappropriate spaces before commas, and capitalize when there's no need.
Frem tells someone to 'do their own homework' and he's the man. Out2theblack says the same thing and he's an 'elitist pseudo-scientist'. Seems more like a personality conflict to me. And that, my friends, is the biggest problem in RWED, IMHO (besides the cliquishness that is).
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Quote:See? This is more of the same. If I say 1+1=3, it's easy enough to say, "No, it's 2", but If I say "Why did Hitler bomb England?"- that a whole big thing. But seeing as you just wanna slam me and other folks who don't see Bush as a good President, you can just believe what you like, you're gonna anyway, I conjure.
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Frem tells someone to 'do their own homework' and he's the man. Out2theblack says the same thing and he's an 'elitist pseudo-scientist'.
Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:See? This is more of the same. If I say 1+1=3, it's easy enough to say, "No, it's 2", but If I say "Why did Hitler bomb England?"- that a whole big thing. But seeing as you just wanna slam me and other folks who don't see Bush as a good President, you can just believe what you like, you're gonna anyway, I conjure.
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Frem tells someone to 'do their own homework' and he's the man. Out2theblack says the same thing and he's an 'elitist pseudo-scientist'.
Okay, instead of explaining your above quoted post to me, how about you start with what Bush has to do with physics and puppies.
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BDN, I think it was how he said it, more than what he said...
I don't know enough physics due to lack of math skills to even comment intelligently beyond that.
-F
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Quote:Frem, my whole thing here was that you don't need mad math skills to have a basic grasp of physical laws...you don't need equations to know that a bullet fired on Earth towards the horizon doesn't travel perfectly straight due to gravity..some here seem to wanna reserve all discussion for themselves based on extreme technical knowledge, and if that's the way we were all to play it, I'm only qualified to speak to martial arts/film/pizza matters.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I don't know enough physics due to lack of math skills to even comment intelligently beyond that.
Extra cheese Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Oh, and someone found this...
http://www.magic.org/store/product_info.php?products_id=4119
Still no words?
I have a word: Disturbing.
Quote:
I admit when I'M wrong- but that's just me.
Yeah - like I admit when the implementation of even simple tags is just WAY beyond my grasp...
Edit (attempted) for ineptitude...
Quote:
Victorious Chrisisall
It was raining cats and dogs...well, dogs, anyway...when we got here!
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Chris, it is fairly obvious Out2theBlack is a troll. Just ignore him/her. Tryingtogetyour goatisall.
I have to say, I've never seen you this ruffled up before. Don't let Out2 get to you.
--------------------------
Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable.
--Mark Twain
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Quote:I think that was PN's point too.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
All that bein said, I am more concerned with what we're doing to the HUMANS there, myself.
I use the same logic re abortion issues. I am personally against abortion. But I don't see why we need to pass laws to persecute women who disagree with me, when there are so many babies suffering AFTER being born.
It seems that they need more of our activism and legal efforts.
--------------------------
Take the diplomacy out of war and the thing would fall flat in a week.
--Will Rogers (1879 - 1935)
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Chris, it is fairly obvious Out2theBlack is a troll. Just ignore him/her. Tryingtogetyour goatisall.
Do you remember how it felt when certain members of this site referred to you as a troll, guess not.
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Quote:In my defense, I got a toothache, a backache, and when I was growing up I'd hear time & again that I was wrong, but it was followed by no corrective advice leading me to believe that when folks do this, they are just hammering on someone to make some part of THEM feel better, + residual issues surrounding it for me.
Originally posted by canttakesky:
I have to say, I've never seen you this ruffled up before.
On the bright side, I'm about to pick up the new issue of Buffy at the comics shop!!!!
WOOO-HOOOO!!!!
Pure Joss!!!
'Thused Chrisisall
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Quote:They did? I guess I missed that.
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Do you remember how it felt when certain members of this site referred to you as a troll, guess not.
--------------------------
Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.
--Mark Twain
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Quote:Yeah, that's bullshit. Even if you WERE wrong, it is arrogant, elitist to patronize someone that way. If you really want to correct someone, you tell them WHY.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
.. I'd hear time & again that I was wrong, but it was followed by no corrective advice leading me to believe that when folks do this, they are just hammering on someone to make some part of THEM feel better, + residual issues surrounding it for me.
Frem might not have time to explain everything, and he might say, do your homework. But if you've read the link and still have questions, he'll answer them. Out2 simply hurled accusations without substantiation, and I hate that too.
--------------------------
It is easier to stay out than get out.
--Mark Twain
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:Quote:They did? I guess I missed that.
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Do you remember how it felt when certain members of this site referred to you as a troll, guess not.
It is human nature to gloss over troubles from our past, a coping mechanism I guess. How is one to learn from the past if one does not remember it?
I found it strange that you personally would be so quick to judge another Poster given your past 'discussions' with Rue and to a lesser extent SignyM. Did you not get frustrated when you were singled out for not towing the line? When you were dismissed outright because what you were saying did not parallel the predominate line of thinking at the time? The term troll has been misused far too often on this site IMHO.
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A very strange day it's been...
Might spend a good bit of time wantin to rip yer head off there, BDN... but in what you just said, you'll find zero disagreement here.
-F
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Quote:I agree. It clearly means anyone who disagrees with ME.
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
The term troll has been misused far too often on this site IMHO.
Surrounded by trolls Chrisisall
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Quote:Which is possible- I ain't got no PhD in physics...
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Even if you WERE wrong,
Quote:Thank you.
it is arrogant, elitist to patronize someone that way.
Quote:...unless that's not your motive to begin with...
If you really want to correct someone, you tell them WHY.
Quote:I rebel against his teacher-like authoritarianism!
Frem might not have time to explain everything, and he might say, do your homework.
Quote:Reading is fundamental.
But if you've read the link and still have questions, he'll answer them.
Quote:Yeah, this hole I'm in don't actually feel that deep...
Out2 simply hurled accusations without substantiation,
Quote:Thanks for the sympathetic ear, Cant.
and I hate that too.
Chrisisall
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Quote:Sure. But that is not why I was judging Out2. I did not say what I said because he didn't "tow the line" or join the crowd. I have no idea whether it was a real dog or not--nor do I frankly care.
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Did you not get frustrated when you were singled out for not towing the line? When you were dismissed outright because what you were saying did not parallel the predominate line of thinking at the time?
It was the WAY he ridiculed Chrisisall. He patronized him and implied Chris is stupid and ignorant, without explaining why. That is not discussing a different opinion. That is bullying, and in my view, trolling.
And Frem, I am disappointed that you would agree with BDM. I thought you would have known me enough by now that I don't jump on people for thinking differently. I DO however, defend my peeps when they get jumped on for no reason.
I don't have a problem with divergent opinions. I only have a problem with people being mean about whatever opinion they have (mainstream or maverick). And if you don't know that by now, then you don't really know me at all. But then, maybe I shouldn't expect that. I'm just a name on a black and yellow discussion board.
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Quote:I remember plenty of instances in which people insulted me in worse ways than calling me a troll. So no, I am not glossing over troubles from my past.
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
It is human nature to gloss over troubles from our past, a coping mechanism I guess. How is one to learn from the past if one does not remember it?
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My FIRST impression is that if anyone has a working knowledge on how much effort it takes to throw a certian weight it would be Chrissisall. Knowledge of physics doesn't just come from books.
PRAXIS.
It's a real word.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:Yeah right- by that way of thinking an acorn would fall faster than a leaf.
Originally posted by Kirkules:
While it is true that from F=mA(force=mass*acceleration)you can see in the form A=F/m that acceleration is inversely proportional to mass, assuming a equal initial force the lighter puppy has greater initial acceleration. But at the same time the heavier puppy has a greater kinetic energy at a given velocity (T=1/2mv2). Because drag is equal on both puppies, The kinetic energy of the lighter puppy is quickly overcome by drag while the heavier one has more energy to offset drag. This should mean that after a short distance the heaver puppy will have greater velocity.
I knew that.
Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Ever throw a cat? I have
You should always swing a cat. http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/no-room-to-swing-a-cat.html You'll get more velocity and the equation of motion is simpler(velocity=angular speed*radius).
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I just take issue with labelling *anyone* a troll, is all.
Just cause someone pushes your buttons on ya doesn't make it so, you know ?
-F
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Chris, it is fairly obvious Out2theBlack is a troll. Just ignore him/her. Tryingtogetyour goatisall.
I have to say, I've never seen you this ruffled up before. Don't let Out2 get to you.
--------------------------
Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable.
--Mark Twain
Let the boy keep his goat...He plainly needs some kind of 'recreational release'...
C-T-S , if you'd take sides in an argument that's not even yours , without having ALL the Facts , and you are a 'homeschooling' mother , admirable as that is , I'm concerned for the potential intellect of your children , and the future they'll receive due to your 'educating' them...
Maybe you'll see what I mean later...
I find your 'signature' quote especially deeply IRONIC in this instance , is all...
No offense intended toward you or yours , mind...Forasmuch as it may depend upon me , I am at peace with everyone...But , I have a natural and inalienable right to self-defense , and given sufficient provocation , will use necessary force to neutralize , without joy , my attackers...
Would you not do that for your kids , Mum ?
But , I've been directly and viciously attacked by your colleague-is-all , called all sorts of 'names' , then you turn around and call ME a troll and a bully...Those the kind of 'morals' you teach the little ones in your 'schoolhouse' ?
Your value-judgments aside , I'm willing to forgive you , provided you see your errors in this instance...
Can't say the same about your little 'buddy'...He claims that he can admit when he's wrong , but he hasn't yet , and it seems unlikely that he ever will...
Gettin' awful crowded in my sky...
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Yeah right- by that way of thinking an acorn would fall faster than a leaf.
Originally posted by Kirkules:
While it is true that from F=mA(force=mass*acceleration)you can see in the form A=F/m that acceleration is inversely proportional to mass, assuming a equal initial force the lighter puppy has greater initial acceleration. But at the same time the heavier puppy has a greater kinetic energy at a given velocity (T=1/2mv2). Because drag is equal on both puppies, The kinetic energy of the lighter puppy is quickly overcome by drag while the heavier one has more energy to offset drag. This should mean that after a short distance the heaver puppy will have greater velocity.
I knew that.
Right again , 'mon capitan' Kirk-y !
Failing marks , again ! for
'Mr. C-I-A' ! 'Intelligence' just ain't gonna be your middle name , is it ?
Maybe you already work for the C.I.A. ? Well , you can still dream...
Probably you'll get a job as a 'ninja-turtle' , considering you said your expertise is supposedly martial arts and pizza...
}" Frem, my whole thing here was that you don't need mad math skills to have a basic grasp of physical laws...you don't need equations to know that a bullet fired on Earth towards the horizon doesn't travel perfectly straight due to gravity..some here seem to wanna reserve all discussion for themselves based on extreme technical knowledge, and if that's the way we were all to play it, I'm only qualified to speak to martial arts/film/pizza matters.
Extra cheese Chrisisall "
Isn't that what you said ?
In case anyone's forgotten , here it is ,
once more :
Frem, my whole thing here was that you don't need mad math skills to have a basic grasp of physical laws...you don't need equations to know that a bullet fired on Earth towards the horizon doesn't travel perfectly straight due to gravity..some here seem to wanna reserve all discussion for themselves based on extreme technical knowledge, and if that's the way we were all to play it, I'm only qualified to speak to martial arts/film/pizza matters.
Extra cheese Chrisisall
Well , maybe not the martial arts , either , considering the lack of tactical skills...
Guidance counselors pulled their hair out , didn't they ?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Ever throw a cat? I have
You should always swing a cat. http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/no-room-to-swing-a-cat.html You'll get more velocity and the equation of motion is simpler(velocity=angular speed*radius).
Yep , Kirk-y , you could have a future as a possible 'starship captain' , considering your mastery of flight physics ! Seriously !
On the other hand , the boy "chris" keeps asking to be taken to school...
Can't find his own way , you know ?
Told him he could look it up later , but he doesn't have sufficient coin to 'buy' a clue...
I threw a few out of pity , but he rejected them and mocked me...
Rejected reality , even...At least he's right about not being a 'psychic'...
Didn't see it coming , you know ?
Sad.
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Effue you elitist psuedo-scientist. You wanna discuss physics in techno-speak detail instead of paying attention to the real-world application, go ahead. You ever use the term 'centrifical' instead of 'centripetal' I guess I should be all over your ass too, regardless whether I know what you're talking about, right? And in film terms, don't you dare say 'zoom in' when it's a track.
This is exactly why I visit RWED less and less- the self-important ego-driven semantics that take the place of idea exchange.
I asked you to correct me, but you wanted to stroke your vocabulary instead- you're worse than McKay on Stargate Atlantis, at least he'd explain himself while enjoying his smugness.
Plus, you put inappropriate spaces before commas, and capitalize when there's no need.
Just for clarity , is all...
*"centrifical"* is it ? Don't know what that means , is all...
Oh , sorry , did I say 'centripetal' ?
Yes I did...It's what I meant , is all :
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/HBASE/cf.html
What was that thing you were saying about 'real-world' application...This doesn't look so 'theoretical' to me...
Who was 'stroking their vocabulary' , did you say ?
Maybe that was you , "Transferance"-is-all...
And, if you're still thinking that you should be all over my ass , I can tell you , I'm definitely NOT gonna be YOUR type...
You possibly are unsettled with certain aspects of your attraction to me , is all...
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Just.. cause I really wanna know.
Are you like, not meanin to be offensive here, or are ya actually workin at it ?
Appease my curiosity, wouldja.
-F
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Just.. cause I really wanna know.
Are you like, not meanin to be offensive here, or are ya actually workin at it ?
Appease my curiosity, wouldja.
-F
"Ma Cobb" said I wanted the boy's goat !
I don't ! The boy himself said he thought he should be all over my ass...
What part of the facts would be 'offensive' ?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.takebackthefuture.com/
http://www.fox.com/fod/player.htm?show=tscc
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:So I should look up some words to understand the application of physical laws? Okay, stop being an idiot, ..
Originally posted by out2theblack:
Do you really ?
Then do some wiki-google and look up things like :
'momentum' , 'laws of motion' , 'acceleration' , and 'centripetal force'...
Feel free to sound even more like an ass, though...
The impatient Chrisisall
Only look up 'the words' , if you really *want* to understand...
You can ignore the math , even...
With the pictures , it may begin to make sense to you...
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/HBASE/cf.html
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:Quote:Yeah, that's bullshit. Even if you WERE wrong, it is arrogant, elitist to patronize someone that way. If you really want to correct someone, you tell them WHY.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
.. I'd hear time & again that I was wrong, but it was followed by no corrective advice leading me to believe that when folks do this, they are just hammering on someone to make some part of THEM feel better, + residual issues surrounding it for me.
Frem might not have time to explain everything, and he might say, do your homework. But if you've read the link and still have questions, he'll answer them. Out2 simply hurled accusations without substantiation, and I hate that too.
--------------------------
It is easier to stay out than get out.
--Mark Twain
Please read again , C-T-S , my posts ,
March 4th , 1459 and 1809 hrs.
I might not have the time to explain everything , either , to someone who won't even bother to look up some suggested search terms...
Just the facts , Ma'am...Just the facts !
Right now , I'm likin' Mark Twain...You seem to , also...
This one , from your post on March 5th , 1404 hrs.
Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable.
--Mark Twain
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
While it is true that from F=mA(force=mass*acceleration)you can see in the form A=F/m that acceleration is inversely proportional to mass, assuming a equal initial force the lighter puppy has greater initial acceleration. But at the same time the heavier puppy has a greater kinetic energy at a given velocity (T=1/2mv2). Because drag is equal on both puppies, The kinetic energy of the lighter puppy is quickly overcome by drag while the heavier one has more energy to offset drag. This should mean that after a short distance the heaver puppy will have greater velocity.
Thanks Kirkules. If Out2 weren't such an ass, he could have explained it to Chris this way to make his point, instead of the old "You flunked physics, didn't you?" I appreciate your taking the time to do this.
As I understand it, the point of contention is assumption of equal initial force. That is, Chris is saying a heavier puppy would have less initial velocity, and a lighter puppy more initial velocity. Of course, without knowing the difference between the initial velocities (if there is actually a difference), it is hard to say off the cuff whether the heavier puppy would still have the greater ending velocity.
I'll write more in the morning.
--------------------------
The real purpose of the scientific method is to make sure Nature hasn't misled you into thinking you know something you don't actually know.
-- Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
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Quote:Well, ok. Maybe my definition of "troll" is too broad. In my view, a troll is anyone who has nothing of substance to say, and only says enough to bait emotional responses. Certainly at the beginning, Out2 met these criteria with making only comments like "You flunked physics, didn't you?"
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I just take issue with labelling *anyone* a troll, is all.
However, now that he's posted more, I stand corrected. He is not a troll; he's just an ass and a bully.
--------------------------
Force and fraud are in war the two cardinal virtues.
--Thomas Hobbes
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Thanks Kirkules. If Out2 weren't such an ass, he could have explained it to Chris this way to make his point, instead of the old "You flunked physics, didn't you?" I appreciate your taking the time to do this.
As I understand it, the point of contention is assumption of equal initial force. That is, Chris is saying a heavier puppy would have less initial velocity, and a lighter puppy more initial velocity. Of course, without knowing the difference between the initial velocities (if there is actually a difference), it is hard to say off the cuff whether the heavier puppy would still have the greater ending velocity.
--------------------------
The real purpose of the scientific method is to make sure Nature hasn't misled you into thinking you know something you don't actually know.
-- Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Let's review just a little...
First , C-I-A made a couple of posts in response to P-N's thread...
In which , he straddled a fence , in an effort to have his 'opinions' heard on both sides of an issue...He postulated a number of his assumptions in an effort to bolster his 'opinions'...
I haveen't a particular regard for 'opinions' in most cases in which mathematical 'proofs' are actually available , but that's just part of the scientific method , perhaps...But , neither had I suggested any math , yet , and as I recall , I still haven't suggested anyone take up the math...
I offered him some search terms so he'd be able to begin correcting *his own* misconceptions about the physics...But he insisted that I explain everything , in other words , act as his free tutor in physics...He rejected my suggestions to just look up the words...
In science , we'd have to come to some agreement about the definitions of the words that describe the things we're talking about...
Agreement on words like the search terms he was offered for his , and my , starting point...
Get on 'the same page' , one might say...But , he said that *I* just wanted a fight...
Who can offer *reason* to someone like that...
What followed , rather than his own sincere search of the relevant areas , was his efforts to out-type me , and the sarcasm about 'inertia' , followed immediately thereby with his ad hominem attacks...
If he'd gone and done some looking into the matter on his own , then he might've discovered that it wouldn't be as easy as he apparently believed , just because he'd stated that I should be able to explain it in only a few sentences . He would've then possibly realized that physics , which he possibly might've figured he must already know , would be perhaps somewhat more complicated...
But , hey , I'd thrown him a lifeline already...
Should we perhaps begin a list of all the things I've been called since this whole matter began ?
Seems a truism , yes , indeed , that some of the 'animals' ARE 'more equal' than others...
Rather than go away and begin his own 'education' , while things had not yet gotten too far out of hand , he continually clung to his assumptions that he must be the correct one , much like a drowning man grasping at straws , without apparently ever realizing that he had perhaps jumped into something over his head , with both feet going first...
At that point , I'm not going to jump in and try to 'save' him ', because , firstly , he didn't actually want to be saved , and secondly , he had begun taking me to task for his own faulty judgment...And thirdly , he continued to waste his 'breath' , so to speak , by continuing to hurl invective at me , flailing his arms against the keyboard , as it were...
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:Quote:Well, ok. Maybe my definition of "troll" is too broad. In my view, a troll is anyone who has nothing of substance to say, and only says enough to bait emotional responses. Certainly at the beginning, Out2 met these criteria with making only comments like "You flunked physics, didn't you?"
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I just take issue with labelling *anyone* a troll, is all.
However, now that he's posted more, I stand corrected. He is not a troll; he's just an ass and a bully.
--------------------------
Force and fraud are in war the two cardinal virtues.
--Thomas Hobbes
Troll , ass , bully...Just your opinions , is all..
Not 'science'...Only an emotional response...
My observation that he'd possibly flunked physics was just summarily denied...Though I phrased it in the form of a question , he was given a *red-light-in-the-brainpan* opporunity for self-correction...
I'm told that in Mandarin Chinese , the word (or character) for 'crisis' has a duality to it , that it consists of two components , one of which means 'danger' , and the other of which means 'opportunity'...
Perhaps my challenge put him in 'crisis' , and while he perceived 'danger' , he did not avail himself of 'opportunity'...
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http://www.takebackthefuture.com/
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What a waste. Puppies is good eatin'.
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Quote:
Originally posted by arclight:
What a waste. Puppies is good eatin'.
Haven't tried any , myself...Exceptin' 'hush' puppies , that is...
But , I seem to recollect seeing a picture of what looked like some meat on a grill once , with a sign next to it that said , 'Good Dogs' , or some such...:wink,:wink
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Quote:
Originally posted by out2theblack:
I haveen't a particular regard for 'opinions' in most cases in which mathematical 'proofs' are actually available ,
Even if this WERE a case in which mathematical proof is available, opinions are still necessary in discussing assumptions behind the proof. But there ISN'T enough information in this video for any mathematical proofs. You have no idea what the mass is, what the initial force applied is, what the initial velocity is, what the trajectory is, what the induced drag is as the puppy turned in the air, etc. But there isn't any proof, so opinions matter even more. If you had a counter opinion, or if you did have mathematical proof, deliver those--not insults.
Quote:What misconceptions about physics? He made observations and proposed a hypothesis to explain the observations. If either his observations and/or his hypotheses are wrong or ill-conceived, you could have presented your counter-opinion straight up. Instead you told him to "go back to school" as it were--which only serves to belittle, not make a case.
I offered him some search terms so he'd be able to begin correcting *his own* misconceptions about the physics...
And I looked up momentum, laws of motion, acceleration, and centripetal force in Wikipedia and that link you eventually shared. None of those definitions, as presented by wikipedia, has any significant bearing on Chris' observations or hypothesis.
Momentum: All things being equal, a heavier puppy has more momentum, and can travel faster than a lighter puppy. But all things are not equal, including initial force applied and initial velocity achieved--which was Chris' argument. So you have no idea what velocity was and what the momentum would have been.
Laws of motion: Neither inertia nor reciprocity of action is relevant. (Yes, we know the puppy will keep moving until something slows it down. And yes, we know something will slow it down. But tells us nothing about the weight of the puppy without knowing initial velocity.) That leaves acceleration, which we can address next.
Acceleration: I only watched the video once, so I could be wrong here. But it seemed to me the trajectory of the puppy was in a largely horizontal arc, with almost no straight vertical drop at the end. As soon as the puppy left the hand of the soldier, there was no longer any force being applied. The puppy would have simply lost velocity, not gained. I would disagree with Chris there was acceleration to begin with, except for the very small vertical drop at the end.
Centripetal force: The radius was the length of the soldiers arm. The puppy was hurled many times more that length. For most of the puppy's path, the difference made by mass in centripetal force would be insignificant. Again, what matters is the initifal velocity, which we do not know. So centripetal force, as I see it, is neither here nor there.
None of these terms are relevant in either supporting or refuting Chris' position. Ultimately, in my view, the video does not provide enough mathematical information to guess the weight of the puppy. It is not something that can be either asserted or refuted as a matter of fact or definition.
I may be wrong, and am open to correction. But there had better be an argument involved and not just arrogant, patronizing insults about intellectual or academic failures.
--------------------------
The real purpose of the scientific method is to make sure Nature hasn't misled you into thinking you know something you don't actually know.
-- Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I think the dog wasn't real after all!!! Ever throw a cat? I have (not to kill it- to get it to stop clawin' my leg), and if that puppy weighed what a smallish cat did, the toss at that speed is impossible due to it's weight- only a stuffed dog weighing very little could accelerate like that given the scruff-of-the-neck hold. Plus it spun in the air too fast to really weigh anything.
/B]
Here you go , Ms. C-T-S !
Back in the beginning , before I made any observations or comments at all in this thread...
Let's see , how did that 'reasoning' go :
If that puppy weighs what a 'smallish' cat *did*...
Tell us what the smallish cat *did* weigh...
Can someone quantify what the smallish cat *did* weigh ? There'd be a *start* at working out this little problem...
...the toss "at that speed" ...
At that speed...What is *that speed* ?
Quantify , Please !
OK...So nobody steps up to quantify , once again...
But , despite the lack of *known* quantities...
The 'Conclusion' is that *that speed* is 'impossible' !Due to what ?
Its WEIGHT ! Its UN-known UN-QUANTIFIED Weight !
OF COURSE !
Ergo , UNKNOWN , UNQUANTIFIED , 'WEIGHT' * UNKNOWN , UNQUANTIFIED , 'IMPOSSIBLE' 'speed' EQUALS
ONLY 'stuffed' dog WEIGHING UN-Quantified 'very little' could
ACCELERATE , UN-Quantified *LIKE THAT* ,
GIVEN ,
the 'SCRUFF-OF-THE-NECK* 'hold' ,
PLUS , *UN-QUANTIFIED , UN-EXPLAINED*,
'motion' =
'too fast' = IT DOESN'T
'REALLY'
'WEIGH'
'ANYTHING'....
Does that seem more clear to ANYONE ?
Does that seem 'right to you ? Am I A-Lyin' ?
Hello , 'anybody' ?
Can it get plainer than that ?
Who's doing pseudo-science now ?
Was there something in that 'FORMULA' that escaped everyone's notice , perhaps ?
When these certain Falsehoods are given as Assumptions , can this physics/math problem actually be worked out ?
Can True Results be acheived ? Better than the ones shown?...
Any Takers ?
C-T-S , do you wanna teach this class ?
C-I-ALL , do you ?
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Quote:That's just it. Chris can't quantify the variables. But then neither can you. So there is insufficient information to arrive at any conclusion, mathematically speaking.
Originally posted by out2theblack:
Quantify , Please !
If you had made THAT argument to begin with, instead of the derisive remark about academic failures, we would not have any conflict now.
--------------------------
Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.
-- Richard Feynman
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:Quote:
Originally posted by out2theblack:
Quantify , Please !
YEP ! Now You , at least , may be able to begin to make a point...You are even making many of MINE for me , which is actually somewhat gratifying , considering the length of this journey , so far...
That's just it. Chris can't quantify the variables... MY POINT EXACTLY !
...But then neither can you. , I KNEW THAT , too !
EXACTLY the point of my CHALLENGE to his ASSUMPTIONS...
So there is insufficient information to arrive at any conclusion, mathematically speaking... ALSO TRUE ! NEVERTHELESS , he made a CONCLUSION , actually many more than just the one...See , so far you and I don't disagree on any particular points , except for the name-calling that was launched early on...You went there , too , all over me , so please don't start preaching to me about it...
If you had made THAT argument to begin with, instead of the derisive remark about academic failures, we would not have any conflict now.
--------------------------
Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.
-- Richard Feynman
Hey , he had already made all his assumptions and conclusions without a well-reasoned SCIENTIFIC thought process , and a 'workable' HYPOTHESIS ! ...: that COULD have switched on the RED LIGHTS for him...And which might've told him :
STOP ! DANGER/OPPORTUNITY ! NOT ENOUGH INFORMATION ! Garbage In , Garbage Out !
I DID direct him to a place to BEGIN ! And , I did tell him that if he did not BEGIN with an understanding of the 'basic-basics', that there'd be NO WAY to 'do the math' , knowing at that point myself , that he'd already had an 'academic failure'...
Most authorities in Education would certainly concur , that if he doesn't bother to 'go to school' , or crack a book ,
that he'd have an 'academic failure' !
That he'd end up like Jayne Cobb and try to just muscle his way through people , rather than being able to know how to 'get along' with folk...I told him that if he needed 'educating' , he'd have to get it himself...STILL TRUE ! Not doing so was HIS academic failure , because , ironically enough , I didn't feel like it was 'my dog' in that fight..
Chris made ALL the initial (and Inertial) assumptions in that academic failure...The lessons have just been handed to him over and over , by many contributors , and he may not ever LEARN from those academic failures...I truly hope he chooses a different path for his future , and doesn't have his mind snap shut due to a slight challenge , anymore...
Like I told him , it wasn't MY job...That has to all be on him...Sorry !
Again , his CHOICE from the outset !
" Begin at the Beginning ! Begin with THE END in mind ! " --Steve Covey
We still have a ways to go in agreeing on definitions , even the ones that you looked up .
While I applaud your effort at finding 'common ground' with me , there are still some of those definitions for which we've not Begun to find consensus...That would be the next set of points that we'd have to subject to debate...No more name-calling , please...It's tiresome , and not provably true...
--------------------------
Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.
-- Richard Feynman
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Anyone with any experience in movies will tell you that was not a live puppy being thrown off a cliff. It was a professional stunt-cat in a puppy suit. Note how you can not see the stunt-cat land on the giant airbag due to clever use of camera angles. The puppy's yelp was of course a stock sound effect added in post-production.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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I should probably just stay out of this thread, but I just can't believe the reverse obtuse twittiness being leveled at my friend Chrisisall over this. Chris...who has so eloquently called me several times a steaming pile of shit, Chris who authors so many of the threads we all read & respond to, Chris who loves classic sci-fi and can talk about them very knowledgeably, Chris who had a thread put up by a "founding" Browncoat to honor his contributions here...that Chris!...and he has the "nerve" to ask someone a question here...and what does he get for it?...nothing but insults and b.s...most un-shiny!
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tankobite:
First off, not a soldier, marine. There is a difference, both sides will correct you on that issue (though especially the Army guys in this case). Second, civilian kids do stupid shit too the difference is that this guy is going to get his shit handed to him by the Corps. I'm an army brat, but I'll give the marines that much; they know how to punish fuck-ups.
-----------------------------------------------------------
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.
Yes , I've seen that very situation , time and again...Some @$$hat says or does something idiotic , usually while in uniform , and gets his @$$ handed to him...As a hat !
You know everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
--Will Rogers, New York Times Aug. 31 1924
US humorist & showman (1879 - 1935)
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
--Albert Einstein
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Agreed, but I am glad to see that the public has such a positive view of our service men; holding them to a higher standard then most. I'd prefer that to the idea that they were all fools and psychos. Reminds me of a Rudyard Kipling Poem, to be honest;
Quote:
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy how's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints:
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
-----------------------------------------------------------
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I should probably just stay out of this thread, but I just can't believe the reverse obtuse twittiness being leveled at my friend Chrisisall over this. Chris...who has so eloquently called me several times a steaming pile of shit,
...and what does he get for it?...nothing but insults and b.s...most un-shiny!
What was un-shiny , his 'esteem' for you , his 'eloquence' , or some of his other 'virtues' that you listed...?
I smell alot of...
[IF] ,
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
But make allowance for their doubting too,
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,
If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much,
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!
--Rudyard Kipling
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A Kipling fan as well? Good on you boy!
Personally, I really like the on in my sig, the Grave of the Hundred Head
Quote:
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.
A Snider squibbed in the jungle,
Somebody laughed and fled,
And the men of the First Shikaris
Picked up their Subaltern dead,
With a big blue mark in his forehead
And the back blown out of his head.
Subadar Prag Tewarri,
Jemadar Hira Lal,
Took command of the party,
Twenty rifles in all,
Marched them down to the river
As the day was beginning to fall.
They buried the boy by the river,
A blanket over his face -
They wept for their dead Lieutenant,
The men of an alien race -
They made a samadh in his honor,
A mark for his resting-place.
For they swore by the Holy Water,
They swore by the salt they ate,
That the soul of Lieutenant Eshmitt Sahib
Should go to his God in state,
With fifty file of Burmans
To open him Heaven's gate.
The men of the First Shikaris
Marched till the break of day,
Till they came to the rebel village,
The village of Pabengmay -
A jingal covered the clearing,
Calthrops hampered the way.
Subadar Prag Tewarri,
Bidding them load with ball,
Halted a dozen rifles
Under the village wall;
Sent out a flanking-party
With Jemadar Hira Lal.
The men of the First Shikaris
Shouted and smote and slew,
Turning the grinning jingal
On to the howling crew.
The Jemadar's flanking-party
Butchered the folk who flew.
Long was the morn of slaughter,
Long was the list of slain,
Five score heads were taken,
Five score heads and twain;
And the men of the First Shikaris
Went back to their grave again,
Each man bearing a basket
Red as his palms that day,
Red as the blazing village -
The village of Pabengmay,
And the "drip-drip-drip" from the baskets
Reddened the grass by the way.
They made a pile of their trophies
High as a tall man's chin,
Head upon head distorted,
Set in a sightless grin,
Anger and pain and terror
Stamped on the smoke-scorched skin.
Subadar Prag Tewarri
Put the head of the Boh
On the top of the mound of triumph,
The head of his son below -
With the sword and the peacock-banner
That the world might behold and know.
Thus the samadh was perfect,
Thus was the lesson plain
Of the wrath of the First Shikaris -
The price of a white man slain;
And the men of the First Shikaris
Went back into camp again.
Then a silence came to the river,
A hush fell over the shore,
And Bohs that were brave departed,
And Sniders squibbed no more;
For the Burmans said
That a white man's head
Must be paid for with heads five-score.
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.
-----------------------------------------------------------
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tankobite:
Agreed, but I am glad to see that the public has such a positive view of our service men; holding them to a higher standard then most. I'd prefer that to the idea that they were all fools and psychos. Reminds me of a Rudyard Kipling Poem, to be honest;
Whoa !
I just totally had the same sort of thing go through me...
EDIT: Yes , TOTALLY !
I won an OLD book of his Verse in an auction...
I'm wanting to do a screenplay of a biography about Kipling , and interest Jude Law in playing him...While he's still young eniugh to do the maximum timeframe of Kipling's life...
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this is such a weird thread, but just thought i'd throw this out there..
a stray bitch had a litter of ten whelps under my workshop...
now i'm a pretty good juggler, but those guys are really squirmy...
oh, i kid the puppies...
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
My FIRST impression is that if anyone has a working knowledge on how much effort it takes to throw a certian weight it would be Chrissisall. Knowledge of physics doesn't just come from books.
PRAXIS.
It's a real word.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
Hey , D-L , this is a strange thread , for sure...
I think I might've seen that 'stray bitch' of which you speak wander through here a while ago...
You know ,Signym , now I'm thinking you and Geezer are making some great points now that I've thought about it some more...
Chris has the cat-throwing experience , and the film experience...
The part I'm having the most trouble with is getting the cat to suit-up in the little puppy-dog suit...
I wouldn't want to be the guy in 'Wardrobe' tryin to help Stunt Kitty into the costume...is all .
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Quote:LOL, Out2, that was SO gorram funny, I'm willin' to apologize for the 'idiot' remark.
Originally posted by out2theblack:
Probably you'll get a job as a 'ninja-turtle' , considering you said your expertise is supposedly martial arts and pizza...
I didn't see that one coming- I really had to wipe a tear out of my eye from the LOL.
Donatelloisall
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Quote:Okay, based on what I've learned so far (yes, I have things to learn; try not to faint...), I can say that the initial acceleration was too great for a weight of about two pounds (A guess at the weight of a puppy of that size), and what seems to be a lack of acceleration as wind resistance is encountered on the way down, again indicating (to ME) that it's weight is not truly that of a real puppy.
Originally posted by canttakesky:Quote:That's just it. Chris can't quantify the variables. But then neither can you. So there is insufficient information to arrive at any conclusion, mathematically speaking.
Originally posted by out2theblack:
Quantify , Please !
Plus it swung real fast (very much like a weightless doll) as the Marine's arm switched from backwards to forward motion for the launch.
But like CTS noted, hard numbers are impossible here.
Maybe I should have just skipped the details of my brainworking and said "Awww, bulls**t, that looked like a freakin' doll to me" and that might have avoided this whole thing, but ya have to admit, this thread was NOT boring...
Even Geezer came up with the funny!
Chrisisall
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Quote:...and let's ALL give it up for Canttakesky who clearly knows more about physics than the rest of us could ever imagine.
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Momentum: All things being equal, a heavier puppy has more momentum, and can travel faster than a lighter puppy. But all things are not equal, including initial force applied and initial velocity achieved--which was Chris' argument. So you have no idea what velocity was and what the momentum would have been.
Laws of motion: Neither inertia nor reciprocity of action is relevant. (Yes, we know the puppy will keep moving until something slows it down. And yes, we know something will slow it down. But tells us nothing about the weight of the puppy without knowing initial velocity.) That leaves acceleration, which we can address next.
Acceleration: I only watched the video once, so I could be wrong here. But it seemed to me the trajectory of the puppy was in a largely horizontal arc, with almost no straight vertical drop at the end. As soon as the puppy left the hand of the soldier, there was no longer any force being applied. The puppy would have simply lost velocity, not gained. I would disagree with Chris there was acceleration to begin with, except for the very small vertical drop at the end.
Centripetal force: The radius was the length of the soldiers arm. The puppy was hurled many times more that length. For most of the puppy's path, the difference made by mass in centripetal force would be insignificant. Again, what matters is the initifal velocity, which we do not know. So centripetal force, as I see it, is neither here nor there.
None of these terms are relevant in either supporting or refuting Chris' position. Ultimately, in my view, the video does not provide enough mathematical information to guess the weight of the puppy. It is not something that can be either asserted or refuted as a matter of fact or definition.
Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:LOL, Out2, that was SO gorram funny, I'm willin' to apologize for the 'idiot' remark.
Originally posted by out2theblack:
Probably you'll get a job as a 'ninja-turtle' , considering you said your expertise is supposedly martial arts and pizza...
I didn't see that one coming- I really had to wipe a tear out of my eye from the LOL.
Donatelloisall
Good to see you come up for Air, Sir...
Myself , I've seen so much Gorramn Funny in this thread , I have no more 'ass' left...Laughed it all off , is what...
Lots of reactive topics and folk in these parts , and here I am , down among 'em...
Man , I want to apologize to you , too , because things just really need not go that way...My mistake was that I was not as tactful as I could have been initially...Which I believe left you wanting for answers that would take quite a goodly while to get , without regard to whether You or I did the fetching...
I like many of your writings and concur with you about STTMP , and while I never met Bob Wise , I did get to meet Gene Roddenberry , an experience I could be compelled to relate sometime .
The best defense is not to offend , so I want to apologize also to the others that have taken offense at what I've said...
When I was 12 years old , a fellow my same age came up in my new neighborhood and started to throw rocks at me...
Well , I was born a Browncoat , which took many years to be fully revealed , as everyone is more or less aware...Got no need to 'beat' anyone , I just want to go my way...
So , when this kid threw the rocks , I threw 'em right back...
Having acheived that degree of mutual respect , we became the very best friends...
Peace and Long Life...Brother .
P.S.--
" Chewie , take the Perfesser into the back , and plug 'er into the hyperdrive..."
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Quote:I was in an atypical unfunny mood yesterday- I forgot for a moment that "in a hundred years, who's gonna care?"
Originally posted by out2theblack:
Good to see you come up for Air, Sir...
Quote:A couple of friends & I had a few drinks at a hotel bar during a convention in NY with James Doohan, man, that was unbelievable luck! He was SO funny!
I like many of your writings and concur with you about STTMP , and while I never met Bob Wise , I did get to meet Gene Roddenberry , an experience I could be compelled to relate sometime .
Quote:
Peace and Long Life...Brother .
*runs before the inevitable group-hug*
Chrisisall
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Incapable of resisting the physics discussion... I'm about to be a know-it-all. If you're one of those who doesn't like that, skip on by this post. 
So, there are three forces in effect here:
1. The push from the soldier's arm. I only watched the film once and it didn't strike me as odd that the man launched the puppylike object so fast, but then the launching happened behind his body and I couldn't see it well. Still, light puppy, strong arm. I wouldn't be surprised that a grown, physically fit man could launch ~2 pounds so easily.
Chris, the fact that the man held the puppylike object by the scruff means he held it to one side of its center of mass. This doesn't make it impossible to throw, it just gives it spin when he releases it, as a pool ball has spin if the cue hits it off center.
2. Gravity. No matter the weight of the puppylike object, the gravitional acceleration is the same. It pulls down. This doesn't tell us much.
3. Air resistance: this is where the weight (inertia) of the puppylike object becomes an issue. [Edit for messed up wording:] The force of air resistance is only strong on a low density object. (High surface area to act on, not much mass to push against.) This is why a feather falls slower than a penny. A light stuffed puppy would have been slowed more by air resistance than a heavy real puppy. Sadly, I don't recall seeing the plo slow down as much as I'd expect of a low density object. I wasn't watching for that, so I'm not sure.
Back to the spin though. Air resistance also slows the rotation of a spinning object,and a low density object has less inertia and will be slowed more. Spin a styrofoam peanut. Spin the same shape/size rock. Styrofoam slows down quickly while the rock keeps spinning, right?
It seemed it me that a spinning stuffed animal that weighs very little should not keep spinning so quickly. That plo was spinning very quickly. This suggests enough rotational inertia, enough mass in the object, to overcome air drag.
Which makes me cringe, so I'm not going to think about it anymore. :(
-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
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Quote:I'm in.
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Incapable of resisting the physics discussion... I'm about to be a know-it-all. If you're one of those who doesn't like that, skip on by this post.
Quote:Yeah, the spin was definitely there.
Chris, the fact that the man held the puppylike object by the scruff means he held it to one side of its center of mass. This doesn't make it impossible to throw, it just gives it spin when he releases it, as a pool ball has spin if the cue hits it off center.
Quote:Just watched it three more times, it sure didn't fall as fast as I'd expect it to, plus a bit more of a bounce than the 'splat' I'd also expect.
Sadly, I don't recall seeing the plo slow down as much as I'd expect of a low density object. I wasn't watching for that, so I'm not sure.
Quote:Okay, but two things: I feel that it weighed maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of a real puppy's weight, which would account for the rotational inertia, HOWEVER, I've seen cats in mid air extending their legs and ( please excuse my lack of technical language here) 'disrupting the single-axis spin'. The plo spun on a clear single axis, and moved no appendage even once. Once again, I'm left with the phony-puppy assumption.
Back to the spin though. Air resistance also slows the rotation of a spinning object,and a low density object has less inertia and will be slowed more. Spin a styrofoam peanut. Spin the same shape/size rock. Styrofoam slows down quickly while the rock keeps spinning, right?
It seemed it me that a spinning stuffed animal that weighs very little should not keep spinning so quickly. That plo was spinning very quickly. This suggests enough rotational inertia, enough mass in the object, to overcome air drag.
The non-technical technical Chrisisall
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The real question here is; "What is the air speed of a coconut laden puppy?"
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LOL.isall
Chrisisall
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
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Just a correction on the aerodynamic(Drag) side of the equation. The total drag on the puppy is the sum of the pressure drag and the skin friction drag. Neither of these is dependent on the mass or density of the puppy. For pressure drag what matters is the cross sectional area of the puppy, for friction drag it's the total surface area. Because the surface area and cross sectional area would be approximately the same for a stuffed animal or a real puppy, the drag coefficient can be assumed to be the same for both. This leaves velocity as the only important factor in determining drag. Keep in mind that drag is related to the square of the velocity.
Another issue is the flight path of the puppy. This is primarily determined by the vertical component of velocity imparted to the puppy when it is released and doesn't tell us much. The only significant factor here is the horizontal distance, since all projectiles essentially fly in a parabolic curve.
The velocity of the puppy when it leaves the soldiers hand as previously mentioned is governed by the basic equation F=m*a(force equals mass x acceleration). Acceleration is defined as the change in velocity with respect to time as given by the equation a=dv/dt where dv in the change in velocity and dt is the time interval that the force F in applied. Combining these equations we can get the form F/m=dv/dt or dv=(F/m)dt. From this we see that the velocity of the puppy is determined by the force F of the soldiers hand, the mass of the puppy, and the amount of time the force is applied.
The problem we have here is the one Cantakesky eluded to earlier. Without knowing the mass of the puppy/fake puppy, and the force, and time applied, we can't really determine anything helpful using the laws of physics.
Just from personal experience my best guess is that it was a real puppy or a stuffed animal weighted to make it fly better. Can't completely rule out the stunt cat in puppy suit either.
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Quote:But isn't the drag's effect changed by the weight of the object? I mean, doesn't a heavier object need a greater surface area to be affected by drag similarly to a lighter object?
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Just a correction on the aerodynamic(Drag) side of the equation. The total drag on the puppy is the sum of the pressure drag and the skin friction drag. Neither of these is dependent on the mass or density of the puppy. For pressure drag what matters is the cross sectional area of the puppy, for friction drag it's the total surface area. Because the surface area and cross sectional area would be approximately the same for a stuffed animal or a real puppy, the drag coefficient can be assumed to be the same for both.
New student Chrisisall
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:But isn't the drag's effect changed by the weight of the object? I mean, doesn't a heavier object need a greater surface area to be affected by drag similarly to a lighter object?
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Just a correction on the aerodynamic(Drag) side of the equation. The total drag on the puppy is the sum of the pressure drag and the skin friction drag. Neither of these is dependent on the mass or density of the puppy. For pressure drag what matters is the cross sectional area of the puppy, for friction drag it's the total surface area. Because the surface area and cross sectional area would be approximately the same for a stuffed animal or a real puppy, the drag coefficient can be assumed to be the same for both.
First thing is that you need to do is separate the concept of weight from that of mass. Mass is independent of Earths gravitational field and is what is most often used in physics. Weight comes from the fact that all mass on Earth is effected by the earths gravity. If you drop an acorn or a feather in a vacuum on the earths surface both will accelerate towards the center of the Earth at 9.81 m/s2. Just like Galileo dropping two steel balls of different mass from the Leaning Tower of Pisa, both hit the ground at the same time. It's a good thing he used balls with enough mass and similar surface areas, making the aerodynamic drag on them an insignificant factor or he would have gotten a different result.
Drag is completely independent of weight or mass. The only other factors that effect drag in subsonic air flow are the density and viscosity of the air, but in this case that too would be the same for both puppies.
I think your mention of surface area is related to your understanding of the aerodynamics of aircraft creating lift with an airfoil. In this case the idea is to maximize lift by having as much surface area as is required to lift the aircraft but at the same time minimize the parasite drag that is a result of the creating lift.
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Guys, this is apparently something the guy said...not sure about the source so take it with a grain of salt
The Marine's name is apparently David Motari
He is on myspace if you feel so inclined to ask him yourself
“I want to say first of all that I am really sorry for the whole puppy thing. I don’t know why people are so pissed. It was a FUCKING STRAY!!! Get the fuck over it! You know how many people I see get blown away on a regular basis?!?! Shit Man Not only the towle heads out here but my own friends!” ~ David Motari ‘the Puppy Killer’ just updated his MySpace page: “I want to clear somethings up before tomarrow. This might be hard to believe but I am sorry about the dog. At the time I just really didn’t care. When you are constantly under fire sometimes people develope a different sence of humor than what others are used to. That video was from over a year ago and i dont know who put it out there but it wasn’t me. It has been a real hard day. I don’t know how they got my information but someone got all my information and i had to disconnect my parents and my girlfriends phone. not to mention i had to redo my myspace because it got hacked. I just want this to end.” And: “What, you expect me to carry a stray sick dog from patrol 10+ miles back to camp with me. Did you know that we’re not supposed to have dogs? Did you know that there isn’t medicine available for animals out there? So what the fuck do you want me to do with it. It was going to die a slow and horrible death. Sorry you guys saw that, but it wasn’t supposed to ever been shown. Usually what happens is we shoot them. I was being “creative” that day and decided to throw the dog instead. If i could take it back, I would. Either way, I did the dog a favor. Sorry if you can’t understand that.” AND: “Look, you guys didn’t know that the dog was sick and starving by the road. I was helping it. That dog was going to die anyways”
And if you're looking to not feel so disgusted check out this link
http://news.aol.com/story/_a/dog-saved-by-marine-gets-home-in-us/20080
222084609990001
When there are no heroes where will we turn?
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:But isn't the drag's effect changed by the weight of the object? I mean, doesn't a heavier object need a greater surface area to be affected by drag similarly to a lighter object?
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Just a correction on the aerodynamic(Drag) side of the equation. The total drag on the puppy is the sum of the pressure drag and the skin friction drag. Neither of these is dependent on the mass or density of the puppy. For pressure drag what matters is the cross sectional area of the puppy, for friction drag it's the total surface area. Because the surface area and cross sectional area would be approximately the same for a stuffed animal or a real puppy, the drag coefficient can be assumed to be the same for both.
New student Chrisisall
This is progress !
I think amidst all the preliminaries I may have intimated to you that this could end up being a long conversation...
That perhaps it was 'answers' that you were seeking...
I was asked once by a beautiful lady friend if I'd take her for a flight in a sailplane...Which I , feeling the compulsion for magnanimity ,
, was able to oblige , and which she was able to enjoy...She didn't have to understand flight physics , she just had to recline in a semi-supine position and enjoy the ride . No prob . But , on another occasion , as co-workers in a very techie job , our conversation turned to a particular area of science , where she had some prior notions prepared in regard to that field...
She challenged my notions intensively and found most of them contrary to her own , because I was able to give certain logically-supported reasons for my beliefs . She found that the conversation was frustrating , and exclaimed ,
" You seem to have ALL the answers , and I hate that about you ! " It stopped her in her tracks when she heard me say,
" You know , hate is a strong word...No , I do not have all the answers...Never told you that I have all the answers , and I'd never try to make you think otherwise...What you are finding to 'hate' about me is that I'm learning to ask better questions ."
Her mouth fell open a bit , 'cause she'd become 'speechless' , but as long as I knew her after that , she was really kind of switched on , with a whole new attitude...
'Attitude' , as it happens , is an important word in relation to many flying objects , especially those inhabited by intelligent crews...
That's why folk shouldn't be ashamed of their 'learning', and that's why I think learning is much to be preferred over 'education'...
A persistent perception that folk have about education is that it's something that they can go and get , like a service that can be received in a manner similar to getting a haircut..Just show up , and 'voila'!. Not so much .
Learning is much more of an attitudinal process...
It's a way in which a person finds out just how much they ALREADY 'know' , a foundational site-preparation for a questing mind , if you will...
That's how I can tell you've 'grown'...You have a different outlook , and you're asking continually-better questions...
FIRE , giclee' by Alan Bean , NovaSpace Galleries http://www.novaspace.com/AUTO/Fire.html
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