The Destruction of Shadow

POSTED BY: ncbrowncoat
UPDATED: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 23:58
VIEWED: 10979
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ASARIAN

Tuesday, February 19, 2008 10:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by HawkMoth:

I believed from the very beginning of the show, based on the theme song, and something Joss said in an early interview, that Mal's home world (before we knew it was named Shadow) had been destroyed/rendered uninhabitable at some point in the war. Along with his quest to be free from Alliance control, he went "into the black" because he had no home to return to once the war was over.

(...)

I'd have to look around, but there were subsequent interviews in which Joss did make it clear that Shadow was no more.

Thank you, HawkMoth! I consider this to be vital information. Can't recall the interviews my own self, but If he really did say that, then I think we're very close to elevating the total destruction of Shadow to the level of canon.

Yes, there' s the theme song, of course:

"Take my land. Take me where I cannot stand. I don't care, I'm still free. You can't take the sky from me."

Especially "where I cannot stand" seems to construe, I must admit, with RPG's: "No one lives there. No one can."

Quote:
Originally posted by NBZ:

Also: why does Shadow have to be a small sparsely populated world? The way it is phrased in the memo by Joss, it does not sound like that to me. "Planets such as Hera, Persephone and Shadow mustered up forces - more than half volunteers - to stop..."

Good question. :) Short answer: it doesn't HAVE to be sparsely populated. Longer answer. I postulate the following:

The likeliness of the Alliance wiping out all life on Shadow is inversely proportional to the size of its population.

As argued by Mal4prez and NBZ, it's rather unlikely for the Alliance to obliterate a population the size of Persephone. Bombing on a planetary scale that affects millions, if not tens or hundreds of millions, just seems a mite too evil. Which is why I suggested a rural place like that, with no major cities, could be not millions died, but 'just' a few thousand. Just to pull it into the realm of "more likely" events. Also, second postulation:

The more folks died on Shadow, the more likely we'd have heard about it.

You'd think there be some mention of it in Simon's PDA thingy, or that Harken would have mentioned such a major event. Or anyone, for that matter (yes, millions died on Miranda too, whereas none of of us "knowed" that; but Miranda was located on the far rim, unlike Shadow, positioned so near the Core). So, this got me to think that maybe Shadow weren't as densely populated as, say, Persephone. None of this, btw, should be considered proof of any kind. Just see it as me thinking out-loud on what might have been.

Quote:
Originally posted by HistoryPhil:

In the bar scene at the beginning of the Train Job (I think) the Alliance man says that Serenity Valley is when the Browncoats lost the war. He does not say that is when all fighting stopped. If there was still fighting going on elsewhere it is possible that neither side had the ships available to help the troops in the Valley.

Earlier I quoted Harken as saying:

"Independents suffered a pretty crushing defeat there. Some say that after Serenity, the Browncoats were through. That the war ended in that valley."

I'd say there's an almost 100% consensus among the Browncoats here that the war did not end in Serenity Valley, but that Serenity Valley was the beginning of the end. So, no argument there.

Quote:
Originally posted by HistoryPhil:

Of course, it is always more emotionally satisfying to attribute evil intent to the other side.

Or, we're just trying to find a proper timeslot for the destruction of Shadow.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

HISTORYPHIL

Tuesday, February 19, 2008 4:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Quote:
Originally posted by HawkMoth:

I believed from the very beginning of the show, based on the theme song, and something Joss said in an early interview, that Mal's home world (before we knew it was named Shadow) had been destroyed/rendered uninhabitable at some point in the war. Along with his quest to be free from Alliance control, he went "into the black" because he had no home to return to once the war was over.

(...)

I'd have to look around, but there were subsequent interviews in which Joss did make it clear that Shadow was no more.

Thank you, HawkMoth! I consider this to be vital information. Can't recall the interviews my own self, but If he really did say that, then I think we're very close to elevating the total destruction of Shadow to the level of canon.

Yes, there' s the theme song, of course:

"Take my land. Take me where I cannot stand. I don't care, I'm still free. You can't take the sky from me."

Especially "where I cannot stand" seems to construe, I must admit, with RPG's: "No one lives there. No one can."

Quote:
Originally posted by NBZ:

Also: why does Shadow have to be a small sparsely populated world? The way it is phrased in the memo by Joss, it does not sound like that to me. "Planets such as Hera, Persephone and Shadow mustered up forces - more than half volunteers - to stop..."

Good question. :) Short answer: it doesn't HAVE to be sparsely populated. Longer answer. I postulate the following:

The likeliness of the Alliance wiping out all life on Shadow is inversely proportional to the size of its population.

As argued by Mal4prez and NBZ, it's rather unlikely for the Alliance to obliterate a population the size of Persephone. Bombing on a planetary scale that affects millions, if not tens or hundreds of millions, just seems a mite too evil. Which is why I suggested a rural place like that, with no major cities, could be not millions died, but 'just' a few thousand. Just to pull it into the realm of "more likely" events. Also, second postulation:

The more folks died on Shadow, the more likely we'd have heard about it.

You'd think there be some mention of it in Simon's PDA thingy, or that Harken would have mentioned such a major event. Or anyone, for that matter (yes, millions died on Miranda too, whereas none of of us "knowed" that; but Miranda was located on the far rim, unlike Shadow, positioned so near the Core). So, this got me to think that maybe Shadow weren't as densely populated as, say, Persephone. None of this, btw, should be considered proof of any kind. Just see it as me thinking out-loud on what might have been.

Quote:
Originally posted by HistoryPhil:

In the bar scene at the beginning of the Train Job (I think) the Alliance man says that Serenity Valley is when the Browncoats lost the war. He does not say that is when all fighting stopped. If there was still fighting going on elsewhere it is possible that neither side had the ships available to help the troops in the Valley.

Earlier I quoted Harken as saying:

"Independents suffered a pretty crushing defeat there. Some say that after Serenity, the Browncoats were through. That the war ended in that valley."

I'd say there's an almost 100% consensus among the Browncoats here that the war did not end in Serenity Valley, but that Serenity Valley was the beginning of the end. So, no argument there.

Quote:
Originally posted by HistoryPhil:

Of course, it is always more emotionally satisfying to attribute evil intent to the other side.

Or, we're just trying to find a proper timeslot for the destruction of Shadow.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

I have heard the Battle of Serenity Valley compared to the Battle of Gettysburg in the American Civil War. They were both turning points where hope for victory was lost. The Battle of Gettysburg was in July of 1863 but the Confederate surrender at Appomattox Courthouse was not until A

ASARIAN

Tuesday, February 19, 2008 8:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HistoryPhil:

I have heard the Battle of Serenity Valley compared to the Battle of Gettysburg in the American Civil War. They were both turning points where hope for victory was lost. The Battle of Gettysburg was in July of 1863 but the Confederate surrender at Appomattox Courthouse was not until April of 1865 not quite two years later. In between was (among other battles) Sherman’s March to the Sea, a swath of destruction 300 miles wide.

Folks here have also compared the Battle of Serenity Valley to another turning point in the Civil War: the Richmond-Petersburg Campaign (commonly known as the 'Siege' of Petersburg), because Alliance troops advanced into Serenity Valley expecting to face minimal opposition, yet instead ran into heavily entrenched resistance (as Mal says in the pilot: "The Alliance said they were going to waltz through Serenity Valley. Well, we choked them with those words.") Nearly half a million people lay dead on that field at day's end, about a third of them 'winners'.

The Battle of Serenity itself lasted seven weeks (two weeks after the Independence High Commander had surrendered). Zoe:

"I said the fighting was over. But you see they left us there. Wounded, and sick, and near to mad as can still walk and talk. Both sides left us there while they 'negotiated the peace'. For a week. And we just kept dying. When they finally sent in Medships, he had about a hundred and fifty left, and of our original platoon, just me."

The Battle of Gettysburg ended July 3, 1863. Sherman's March to the Sea took place at least after September 1864. I don't think there was that much of a gap between the loss of Serenity Valley and the end of all hostilties. But to draw a parallel between what happened to Shadow and Sherman's "scorched earth" tactics is nonetheless a very interesting and plausible way of looking at things. :)

Quote:

I guess we need to know how long was it between Serenity Valley and the formal surrender of the Independents?

I think we can all pretty much agree on the fact that by the celebration of the first Unification Day the war was definitely over. So, when did the Battle of Serenity take place? The Operative's data pad (deleted scenes, BDM) clearly reads: "May 2511 on Hera."Jewelstaitefan has argued "Late July 2511" and sets Unification Day at "Approx 12-17 August 2511". Though the matter is still up in the air, suffice to say we're talking weeks (a good two months max) here, not years between the Battle of Serenity and Unification Day.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

HISTORYPHIL

Tuesday, February 19, 2008 10:56 PM

The destruction of a planet would certainly be an effective tactic for speeding up the peace talks.

For another historical analogy that has already been mentioned; in World War II we called on the Japanese to surrender or we would unleash our all-powerful secret weapon. They didn’t surrender. We dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima. They didn’t surrender. Three days later we dropped an atomic bomb on Nagasaki. They surrendered.

Maybe the Independents learned something from history.

--------------------------
Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before.

HAWKMOTH

Tuesday, February 19, 2008 11:58 PM

(An unrelated question: Where did Mal and Zoe get the money to buy a Firefly?)

We know from the Serenity pilot that six years passed from the end of the battle to the salvage operation the crew was performing for Badger. I always assumed that once Mal and Zoe were let loose by the Alliance, they made a living working as hired guns, bodyguards, or security for various traders/smugglers/whoever would hire them; to make money to live on, and save up for a ship of his own. They probably did this for a few years; then got Serenity up and running a couple of years before the action of the series begins.

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