The Destruction of Shadow

POSTED BY: ncbrowncoat
UPDATED: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 23:58
VIEWED: 10979
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MAL4PREZ

Monday, February 11, 2008 4:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Seems to me like, if it happened that way, he would have mentioned their version of Hiroshima in there somewhere, wouldn't he?

Absolutely - good point. But I don't think that should stop us from pondering. The Alliance could have a moratorium on Shadow's fate, a cover story they stick to, so they wouldn't mention it in front of an ex-Browncoat...

See - any damned fic-storyline can be covered if I wave my hands enough LOL!

Quote:
Also, one keeps wondering, what's with BOTH sides leaving them stranded in Serenity Valley for two weeks after the Independence's High Commander had surrendered? Did perhaps some other cataclysmic event take place which had them all distracted, like your Hiroshima thing?

It does work, doesn't it? Either way, it seems highly likely - definite, in fact - that there's more to the war/Shadow story and Joss would have spun it out in bits, just like he did with Angel and Spike's history.

As for your confusion - I figure that until everything is actually set down by Joss, many differing scenarios are equally possible. It's all about identifying the details that don't fit and finding ways to smooth them over - even Joss had to do that with the movie, right?

Quote:
I once made a pretty cogent case -- if I dare say so myself -- showing the Alliance is not an inherently Evil Empire. But war is dirty business; and killing a couple of thousand settlers on a rural planet near the Core, to make a point, so to speak, I wouldn't put it past them.

I totally agree. The Alliance would definitely do something so horrible as destroy Shadow - but it wouldn't be like Ming the Merciless laughing maniacally as he pushes the buttons. The Alliance would have reasons, intentions to do good. Same as the US in WWII. Same as the Operative. Nothing's black and white in Joss's verse. (Oh, I love it so!)

Quote:
You go to RWED, you're signing up to be a banquet! :)

Mm-hmm. I learned the hard way - I'm missing a rather large piece of my ass. Makes sitting difficult.

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

WYTCHCROFT

Friday, February 15, 2008 11:45 AM

damn fine thread:)

NCBROWNCOAT

Friday, February 15, 2008 6:00 PM

After reading all your fine posts it seems to me that Shadow was either a Hiroshima like act at or near the end of the Battle of Serenity Valley or less likely a horrible accident around in the same time frame.

The quick capitulation of the Independent forces after holding off the Alliance for weeks on Hera seems to indicate this.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

TRAVELER

Sunday, February 17, 2008 1:45 AM

Is it made clear that Shadow is uninhabitable?
The term destruction does not mean that Shadow can not be repopulated. Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki still exist after the United States destroyed the fabric of the cities. These cities were both rebuilt.

If Shadow was mainly rural population then it would not take the entire destruction of the planet to wipe out a few small towns and some homesteaders.

As for Mal lose of faith, I get the opinion that he lost his faith after the surrender at Serenity Valley because no one came to care for the wounded or bring supplies to the survivors. Both the Browncoats and the Aliance left their troops to suffer for a long period of time after the surrender. This is what I understand to cause the great number of casualties on both sides.

Mal understood the casualties in combat, but to witness troops dieing of their wounds and of starvation was a new experience that shattered his faith in both God and I would assume the cause.

When the call to lay down arms came, Mal had several soldiers standing around him. But after the war the impression I got was Zoe was the only remaining member of the battalion besides himself. Thus the anger in Mal's eyes and Zoe's remark to Jayne to leave the ship's galley after Jayne asks how many survived Serenity Valley.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

ASARIAN

Sunday, February 17, 2008 4:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by traveler:

Is it made clear that Shadow is uninhabitable?

Non-canon RPG: "No one lives there. No one can."

Quote:

The term destruction does not mean that Shadow can not be repopulated. Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki still exist after the United States destroyed the fabric of the cities. These cities were both rebuilt.

If Shadow was mainly rural population then it would not take the entire destruction of the planet to wipe out a few small towns and some homesteaders.

Precisely. It could just mean exactly that: however much population was on it having been wiped out. It doesn't necessarily mean every square inch had become uninhabitable: just the inches that were habitated. :)

Quote:

As for Mal lose of faith, I get the opinion that he lost his faith after the surrender at Serenity Valley because no one came to care for the wounded or bring supplies to the survivors. Both the Browncoats and the Aliance left their troops to suffer for a long period of time after the surrender. This is what I understand to cause the great number of casualties on both sides.

Zoe, indeed, explains so in the pilot's deleted scene: that folks only started dying en masse when no one came for them.

The question which continues to intrigue me, though, is the WHY of it. The Alliance leaving Browncoats to rot, I can see that. But the Alliance didn't come for their own troops, either! Nor did the Browncoats send in help. All of this is pretty odd, if you think about it. Seems to me we're missing a piece of the puzzle.

Quote:

Mal understood the casualties in combat, but to witness troops dieing of their wounds and of starvation was a new experience that shattered his faith in both God and I would assume the cause.

Yes, no one came to care for the wounded or bring supplies to the survivors. And if a man ever had good cause to lose his faith in God, that would do it. But clearly Mal and Zoe are NOT resentful towards the Browncoats for leaving them to die out there. So, I'm thinking they must afterwards have come to believe the Browncoats had, if not an excuse, then a damn solid reason for not showing up! So, Mal4prez' Hiroshima thingy is, far as I'm concerned, still on the table.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

TRAVELER

Sunday, February 17, 2008 9:38 PM

Hello asarian:

Thank you for your response. I did not know where to search for the answer about Shadow's destuction. I knew there would be many here that were more knowledgable than I about this, so I asked.

As for Serenity Valley, I can not help but feel that the Browncoats and the Alliance could have come to some sort of truce to rescue their troops. Since it was an Alliance victory they would carry the responsibility for treating the survivors. It may have been a matter of man power that prompted Alliance to neglect the of rescue of the survivors. The Alliance could afford to lose soldiers and the Browncoats could not. It does save the expense not to have so many prisoners to take care of.
It also gives you a glimpse of what to expect from the Alliance as a governing body.

Thanks Again;
Traveler

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

HAWKMOTH

Monday, February 18, 2008 7:59 PM

I believed from the very beginning of the show, based on the theme song, and something Joss said in an early interview, that Mal's home world (before we knew it was named Shadow) had been destroyed/rendered uninhabitable at some point in the war. Along with his quest to be free from Alliance control, he went "into the black" because he had no home to return to once the war was over.

That led me to write one of my first FF stories, "Bloodlines," placing the attack on Shadow in context with the Battle of Serenity.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=854

I clarified that somewhat in Part Three of "All Is Bright."

http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=2770

I'd have to look around, but there were subsequent interviews in which Joss did make it clear that Shadow was no more.

HISTORYPHIL

Monday, February 18, 2008 9:20 PM

I agree that the delay in evacuating the troops (both Browncoat and Alliance) from Serenity Valley may have been a matter of lack of logistic support. If so, then the delay is not necessarily neglect it may have been simple inability to bring in the ship and supplies needed to evacuate the troops.

In the bar scene at the beginning of the Train Job (I think) the Alliance man says that Serenity Valley is when the Browncoats lost the war. He does not say that is when all fighting stopped. If there was still fighting going on elsewhere it is possible that neither side had the ships available to help the troops in the Valley.

Of course, it is always more emotionally satisfying to attribute evil intent to the other side.

Just my two cents.

Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before.

NBZ

Tuesday, February 19, 2008 12:18 AM

Anyone say negotiations? No? Why not?

Such things take time.

Independents: "We Surrender..."
Alliance: "Jolly Good. W-"
Independents: "... But..."
Alliance (Mumbling): "there is a but."
Alliance(Louder with impatience): "Well what is it? Spit it out. We got a victory celebration to uhm... celebrate."
Independents: "There is still an issue of YOUR PEOPLE STILL TRYING TO KILL MY PEOPLE!"
Alliance: "Oops my bad. Oh and none of this 'my people' talk. That won't go down too well now will it?"
Independents: "Ok, we'll just go collect THE troops and then we will get the final terms sorted out."
Alliance: "You can't do that - you quit! And why are you sending you sending down reinforcements?"
Independents: "Reinforcements? They are just empty ships to pick up the troops"
Alliance: "Riiight. That is what you call it? No."
Independents: "No? 'No' what?"
Alliance: "Do you see us for fools? You WILL NOT reinforce your lines! now just let us get our troops and we will start the shindig already"
Independents: "hang on a minute... I smell a rat"
Alliance: "What? A rat? Where?"
Independents: "If you send your people, we'll also send ours."
Alliance: "But I thought you quit!"
...
[Two weeks later]
Independents: "Oh hell with it, you collect your people, and ours!"
Alliance: "Quitter! oh... uhm... ok."

@HistoryPhil: In Bushwacked, the commander guy doing the interviewing also hinted that the War did not end right there. It was seen as a major loss from which the Independents did not recover.

Also: why does Shadow have to be a small sparsely populated world? The way it is phrased in the memo by Joss, it does not sound like that to me. "Planets such as Hera, Persephone and Shadow mustered up forces - more than half volunteers - to stop..."

From my understanding, none of these worlds are part of the "rim" but were gateway planets - not core, but not out there close to the vasty nothingness either. Well off, thriving worlds. Up to the war anyway.

There could have been substantial loss of life.

or not if you go by some stories - Virtual Firefly have a tale where there is a different sort of destruction. (You may wanna read it - episode 2x17 on stillflying.net)

NCBROWNCOAT

Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
Anyone say negotiations? No? Why not?

Such things take time.

Independents: "We Surrender..."
Alliance: "Jolly Good. W-"
Independents: "... But..."
Alliance (Mumbling): "there is a but."
Alliance(Louder with impatience): "Well what is it? Spit it out. We got a victory celebration to uhm... celebrate."
Independents: "There is still an issue of YOUR PEOPLE STILL TRYING TO KILL MY PEOPLE!"
Alliance: "Oops my bad. Oh and none of this 'my people' talk. That won't go down too well now will it?"
Independents: "Ok, we'll just go collect THE troops and then we will get the final terms sorted out."
Alliance: "You can't do that - you quit! And why are you sending you sending down reinforcements?"
Independents: "Reinforcements? They are just empty ships to pick up the troops"
Alliance: "Riiight. That is what you call it? No."
Independents: "No? 'No' what?"
Alliance: "Do you see us for fools? You WILL NOT reinforce your lines! now just let us get our troops and we will start the shindig already"
Independents: "hang on a minute... I smell a rat"
Alliance: "What? A rat? Where?"
Independents: "If you send your people, we'll also send ours."
Alliance: "But I thought you quit!"
...
[Two weeks later]
Independents: "Oh hell with it, you collect your people, and ours!"
Alliance: "Quitter! oh... uhm... ok."

@HistoryPhil: In Bushwacked, the commander guy doing the interviewing also hinted that the War did not end right there. It was seen as a major loss from which the Independents did not recover.

Also: why does Shadow have to be a small sparsely populated world? The way it is phrased in the memo by Joss, it does not sound like that to me. "Planets such as Hera, Persephone and Shadow mustered up forces - more than half volunteers - to stop..."

From my understanding, none of these worlds are part of the "rim" but were gateway planets - not core, but not out there close to the vasty nothingness either. Well off, thriving worlds. Up to the war anyway.

There could have been substantial loss of life.

or not if you go by some stories - Virtual Firefly have a tale where there is a different sort of destruction. (You may wanna read it - episode 2x17 on stillflying.net)

Nbz, that type of "negotiation" most likely happened. Any one old enough to remember the Paris "peace talks" between the US and North Vietnam will remember that they lasted years. They took a long while just to decide the shape of the table. I don't think anything would change in 500 years.

Even if there was a Hiroshima like bombing there would be some sort of talks. Details have to be hammered out and there may have been some dissention among the Independent high command.

Also, I always picture Shadow as Central Texas. Specifically from about Killeen (I spent 3 years there as an Army spouse at Ft. Hood in the mid 1990's)to just north of San Antonio. Very beautiful country.

Basically rural with ranches and farms with rolling grassland, plenty of water with lakes and streams, small towns, maybe 1 or 2 larger towns that serve as the links off planet, but no grand cities, with it's meat and produce going directly to the Core to appear on tables in the best restaurants and apartment kitchen tables.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

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