Israelis Create Warsaw Ghetto in Gaza
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Sunday, October 19, 2025 12:43
VIEWED: 13049
PAGE 11 of 17
Quote:Based on “some” Jewish testimonial alone, that could be. Of course we have the testimonials of Nazis, the Nuremberg Trial, documentation from the Nazi government, the locations of the death camps and even supplies of the chemicals used to poison Jews in concentrations camps, etc, etc. All to corroborate the eye-witness accounts which can be and often are notoriously unreliable.
Originally posted by canttakesky:
By this reasoning, just because some Jews survived the Holocaust doesn't mean they have a fair assessment of what happened in those times--they may be judging Germany too harshly. In fact, because of the traumatic things they've seen or done, it becomes more difficult for them to view the situation with a fair or impartial perspective. Their assessment of the Holocaust and Nazi Germany may be wrong and rooted in ignorance.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:I’m certainly grown up enough to know that such situations are never as black and white as you want them to be. I’m not going to excuse murder or terrorism, which is precisely what people do when they unfairly criticize Israel, while hand waving the murderous actions of groups like Hamas or Hezbollah. I recognize the right of a nation to defend it’s people and its borders from terrorist groups and belligerent militias, that doesn‘t mean I condone murder or terrorism; it means I don‘t.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Thanks CTS.
Finn, I don't usually stoop to personal commentary, but... are you listening to yourself? Excusing occupation, murder, terrorism... I'm grown up enough to know that it's bad whenever anyone does it. Are you?
Occupation is, however, sometimes excusable.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Then why do you excuse it?
That doesn‘t mean I condone murder or terrorism; it means I don‘t.
And Finn, after having rejected news stories, Israeli internal protests, history, and a whole bunch of other information we also have a lot of UN resolutions to back up our claims. Now, as I recall, you were all twisted about Saddam ignoring all kinds of UN resolutions. Is it "different" when Israel does the same? If it is, HOW?
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:It’s not the same thing. First of all Israel is more in compliance with UN resolutions then the Palestinian territories, which to my understanding have never even pretended to care what the UN resolution say. And most of these resolution are completely unworkable, unless both sides agree to comply simultaneous. Most importantly, UN resolution condemning Israel were not made under Chapter 7 of the UN charter, which would make them legally binding. In other words, UN resolution made against Israel so far have been strong suggestions, not international law. On the other hand, UN resolutions condemning Iraq were made under Chapter 7 and were legally binding under international law. So if the UN makes a resolutions that is legally binding, which is blatantly ignored, as in the case of Iraq, it seriously erodes the credibility of the UN, but that can’t be said if the UN resolutions are were never intended to be legally binding, as in the case of Israel and the Palestinian territories.
Originally posted by SignyM:
And Finn, we also have a lot of UN resolutions to back up our claims. Now, as I recall, you were all twisted about Saddam ignoring all kinds of UN resolutions. Is it "different" when Israel does the same? If it is, HOW?
Quote:Maybe you should look up the word "condone."
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Then why do you excuse it?
That doesn‘t mean I condone murder or terrorism; it means I don‘t.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Finn, really... Is this what you do in place of substantive discussion? Split hairs, quibble over wording (it's not apartheid 'cause that's about race), ignore 360 degree testimony, and in general fail to grapple with the real issues?
Palestinians have real grievances. Their land ... homes, olive groves, orchards, and businesses... were given away by Britain, then successively taken away by the Israelis by further and further occupation. The Palestinians are killed, their homes bulldozed, trade and economy completely controlled by Israel, they have a 70% unemployment rate...
I'm not excusing their terrorist activities, but Israel is doing the same thing and with much greater firepower. Until people recognize that Israel not the totally innocent victim (Oh poor us! Everybody hates Jews!) the problems will never be solved.
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:I haven’t ignored any issues or split any hairs. The apartheid nonsense is another attempt to load the argument against Israel, because it’s easier to condemn a nation if you can accuse them of practicing racism, but in fact Israel’s actions are taken in furtherance of security not racism. So in reality, the apartheid stuff is an attempt to ignore the real issues in favor of disingenuous condemnation of Israel.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn, really... Is this what you do in place of substantive discussion? Split hairs, quibble over wording (it's not apartheid 'cause that's about race), ignore 360 degree testimony, and in general fail to grapple with the real issues?
Quote:Israelis have real grievances too. They have been invaded numerous times by Arab nations, had their children blown up in the streets by suicide bombers, had rockets dropped on their homes by people who have stated it as their mission to enact the next Holocaust. There are very few instances of either Britain or Israel actually taking land from Palestinians and most of the grievances of the Palestinians begin and end with their corrupt leadership and violence they insist on pursuing. Israel wants peace and there’s every reason to believe that once that peace is achieved lives for everyone in Israel and the disputed territories will drastically improve, but the Palestinian leadership does not want peace. Wrongs have been committed by both sides, but in the end the central issue is that the Palestinian leadership does not want peace. It doesn’t matter how unfairly you criticize Israel (or hate Jews if that’s your shtick), there isn’t much Israel can do for the Palestinian people in the disputed territories, until the Palestinian leadership seeks peace in good faith.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Palestinians have real grievances. Their land ... homes, olive groves, orchards, and businesses... were given away by Britain, then successively taken away by the Israelis by further and further occupation. The Palestinians are killed, their homes bulldozed, trade and economy completely controlled by Israel, they have a 70% unemployment rate...
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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I'm not jewish, nor do I belong to the cults that believe we, as Christians, somehow owe some sort of divine debt to the modern nation of Israel.
I would point out, however, that Israel is a nation, recognized by the UN. Some people have posted that Israel 'has no right to exist'. That sounds remarkably similar to how some mulsims see it.
I fail to see where anyone one person, or group of persons, has the right to state that another has no right to exist.
If I were Israel, I would have destroyed my enemies right after they invaded in 1967, had I had the ability to do so. These are nations that harbor terrorists who are sworn to destroy them.
If someone vows to destroy me, and my family, then you can bet that I won't wait for a response from the Useless Nincompoops ( UN 
) before moving to protect me and mine.
The arguments over whether Israel owes the Palestinians something, or has a right to exist, is moot in any case. They DO exist. And they are surrounded by enemies who don't like that, and have vowed to do something about it.
It strikes me as ironic that certain people, and groups of people, can so blithely condemn Israel for trying to protect it's people, while excusing the actions of the groups who send women and children wired with explosives to kill other women and children as 'justified' or 'understandable'.
It's neither.
But then, what do I know?
Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.
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Quote:Bullshit. When you punish an entire civilian population that's not for security purposes. It may not be based on "race"... technically avoiding the term "racism" (which I'm sure you'll point out)... so let's call it "collective ethnic punishment".
in furtherance of security not racism
Quote:But any solution has to address the grievances on BOTH sides. And right now, Israel is pretty damn comfortable compared to the Palestinians, who they've bottled up economically and physically. (They control movement in and out, electricity, water, sewage, goods movement... the parallel to the Warsaw ghetto is striking.)
Israelis have real grievances too. They have been invaded numerous times by Arab nations, had their children blown up in the streets by suicide bombers, had rockets dropped on their homes by people who have stated it as their mission to enact the next Holocaust.
Quote:How in heaven's name do you justify THAT statement? Tell me about those "very few times" in detail, okay?
There are very few instances of either Britain or Israel actually taking land from Palestinians
Quote:Right now Israel has the whip hand. Since they have the most power, they have the most responsibility for doing things differently. For example, if they stopped collectively bottling up and punishing all Palestinians ... making ALL Palestinians their enemy... they might get somewhere.
there isn’t much Israel can do for the Palestinian people in the disputed territories, until the Palestinian leadership seeks peace in good faith.
They remind me very much of us. We have the biggest army, we spend more on military than the rest of the world combined and yet we go into a panic over 911 and invade a nation that had nothing to do with that in the first place. It just remind me of a gorilla gibbering in fear and smashing a stick because it looks like a snake. Irrational.
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:Er... nothing? Saying "Israel" has no right to exist is very different from saying that "Jews" have no right to exist. At the time of the Palestine Mandate, Jews represented a tiny minority in a basically Arab Muslim area, along with a Christian minority. As Frem has pointed out earlier, Arabs used to shelter Jews from the rapacity of Xtian Crusades, the whole area could have become a mixed-population state without specifically setting aside land for "the Jews". During that time, Britain allowed "the Jews" to represent themselves as a nation, while specifically prohibiting Arabs from representing themselves as a nation. Well, that didn't seem fair to the residents of that area who were... as I've already pointed out... overwhelmingly Arab. And everything has gown downhill since then.
But then, what do I know?
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:No. Palestinians aren’t being punished for their ethnicity. Palestinian-Israeli conflict has nothing to do with race or ethnicity, and I’m not interested in these attempts to load the argument.
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Bullshit. When you punish an entire civilian population that's not for security purposes. It may not be based on "race"... technically avoiding the term "racism" (which I'm sure you'll point out)... so let's call it "collective ethnic punishment".
in furtherance of security not racism
Quote:If in order to avoid invasion, Israel must treat the disputed territories as if they were “states” with their own government, then no, Israel does not have to treat both grievances separately, but should look to the security of it's own people first, before taking care of "foreign" states. It is the responsibly of the Palestinian interim government to see to the grievances of its people. This is a double standard. You demand that the disputed territories are “Palestinian land” and that Israel should treat them as a "foreign" state, but Israel must take full responsibility for the people in those territories. Either Israel annexes the disputed territory and removes the Palestinian government or the Palestinian government is responsible for it’s people.
Originally posted by SignyM:
But any solution has to address the grievances on BOTH sides. And right now, Israel is pretty damn comfortable compared to the Palestinians, who they've bottled up economically and physically. (They control movement in and out, electricity, water, sewage, goods movement... the parallel to the Warsaw ghetto is striking.)
Quote:The real question is how do you justify blaming Israel for a few isolated events, which is precisely the tactic used by many unfair critics of Israel. You point to a few IDF soldiers who commit murder and say this is what Israel does. You point to a few cases in which armed bandits forced Palestinian farmers off their land and say this is Israeli policy. There are rotten soldiers and bandits in every nation - and in Israel which has dealt with multiple wars and lawlessness - this kind of thing certainly happens, but it is not the policy of the Israeli government or the standard practice.
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:How in heaven's name do you justify THAT statement? Tell me about those "very few times" in detail, okay?
There are very few instances of either Britain or Israel actually taking land from Palestinians
Quote:Oh, you mean like all the years of peace before Israel built the wall. The problem of getting somewhere is completely constrained by when the Palestinian leadership decides they want peace, and as long as they live as Mafia Dons because of the lack of peace, they won’t want peace, wall or no wall.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Right now Israel has the whip hand. Since they have the most power, they have the most responsibility for doing things differently. For example, if they stopped collectively bottling up and punishing all Palestinians ... making ALL Palestinians their enemy... they might get somewhere.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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