Pakistan's Bhutto Killed in Attack
POSTED BY: deadlockvictim
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 14, 2026 16:40
VIEWED: 12906
PAGE 9 of 16
Why aren't there millions of Islamic women out there marching all over the world protesting this assassination? This could be their chance, collectively, to tell their enslavers ( muslim men ) to go F themselves....they could/should all be educated and distinguished like Benazir was, they should shed their veils and tent-dresses, blast some Meatloaf on their MP3's and join the 21st century....or is their batterred-wife syndrome way of life just too ingrained?
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Here's a weird story- Bhutto apparently wrote an "read this only if I get killed" email partly blaming Musharraf:
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/27/bhutto.security/index.
html?eref=edition
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I was saving pointing this out till you finally thought about that, Jong.
http://www.rawa.org/index.php
Our mainstream media wouldn't give em the time of day, and I myself don't think they're quite ruthless enough - but I do understand their concern about not becoming worse than the enemy to beat em, so there is that to consider.
Was it me, I'd hand out some AKs to those girls with MOLAN LABE stamped on one side and a Venus symbol on the other... but that's me, yanno.
-Frem
EDIT: and just so you know, THIS poster resides on the back wall of my office, where it's been since 1998, I believe.
http://www.rawa.org/poster-chain.htm
One thing my crew does is collect used cameras and journalism supplies and give em over to help document the horror, hoping against hope to force the world to even acknowledge it, if not do something about it... might not agree with *how* they're doing what they are, but imma support it anyway.
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Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
It does bring something else up, however. It shows the assumptions you make. The other side feels no guilt, right? YOU and those on your side are the only ones who feel noble emotions? The guy who shot Bhutto is a cardboard cutout villian who was born and grew up with no emotions except the EVIL kind, right? Ahh yes - he was a veritable Reaver. He never experienced his own 9/11, never had people he loved killed or tortured by foreigners. He never had his own way of life threatened by invaders. He never had a brave, noble-seeming leader tell him that he could save his friends and family by making his own sacrifice. He never had anyone say to him: "The question mankind has always struggled with is 'are you willing to kill for them [your moral beliefs]'? If that answer is no then I'd suggest your cause is doomed to failure." And he never turned his enemies into unfeeling villians in his mind, so that he could make himself carry out his cowardly attack.
In case you aren't seeing it, my point is not to defend this man. It's to stress how similar your mentality is to his. Your reasons to torture are no better than his reasons to murder.
And this isn't about our brave soldiers in the field. This is about us, America, as a society, encouraging our brave soldiers to torture helpless, innocent people. This is about us doing that and then turning around and condeming Bhutto's killer, as if we have a special right to cross moral lines but no one else does.
Giving yourself rights that you don't allow others is childish. Answering every challenge with violence is childish. Answering every debate with name-calling is childish. (I'm not speaking of you here, just offering my own definition of "childish". Do what you like with it.)
mal4prez,
I'm quoting your post at length because it is brilliant. A truly beautiful analysis and refutation. Don't expect a reply form Mr. Sandwich though. Like any bully, the guy runs from real confrontation, preferring to practice his innuendo and intimidation on folks that aren't looking or ready for a fight.
I wonder a lot lately what we would see if we could look into the homes and cubicles of our fellow browncoats. I sometimes feel surrounded by frat-boys, y'know? All Hero's talk about the childishness of respecting one's emotional response, his more-hyper-masculine-than-thou attitude toward the manly art of murder, bespeak a guy who hasn't quite figured out how to relate to women--at least, women with any self-respect.
I mean no disrespect to Hero, of course, just analysin' the ol' evidence is all. Hero may be a wonderful man with a pitch-black sense of humor and a yen for play-acting. If that were actually the case, he would definitely qualify as a personal hero of mine.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:Causal, Signy, you make a very good point, and I hope you are right. I truly hope Ms. Bhutto did not die in vain; and such an out come would serve as an excellent memorial to the risks she took in continuing to confront the forces of chaos and disruption.
Originally posted by Causal:Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I try to keep a realistic eye on what's REALLY going on. (For example, part of the reason why Iraq is settling down is because it IS being partitioned... something I've advocated for years.) And I have a strange feeling that this might be a turning point for Pakistan: That it might reject both authoritarian rule AND Muslim extremists. Five or ten years from now, when Pakistanis look back, they might mark this as the signal event of change.
It's interesting that sometimes what you really need is an horrific event that galvanizes people into action--regretable but, I think, true. I think that's the real failing of terrorism. Up to a point it can be very effective: the instinct to preserve one's own life can be a powerful motivator. But there's a line that, once crossed, causes people to cease complying out of self-preservation and to resist the aggressor out of a desire to preserve something greater than the self (which is, I think, one of the things that makes humanity great). But I digress. In the case of Pakistan, I just wonder if the assassination of Bhutto will be that line beyond which violence no longer compels compliance. How exciting if a Muslim country threw off both theocracy and autocracy on its own!
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Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
This is about us, America, as a society, encouraging our brave soldiers to torture helpless, innocent people.
Kindly list the occasions where American soldiers have tortured innocent, helpless people and not been punished for it. Maybe just five or ten instances, so you don't have to type too much. Cites would be nice. Some evidence that we (as a society, not just some individuals) would support torturing innocent, helpless people would also be appreciated.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Some evidence that we (as a society, not just some individuals) would support torturing innocent, helpless people would also be appreciated.
Hold up, Geez. The point is not that there are Americans that want innocents tortured per se (everyone who is subjected to torture is helpless by the way), but that there are Americans who sure wouldn't mind if a few hundred innocent muslims were tortured if it meant torturing one guy who "deserved" it. Also there are Americans who assume that anyone we capture or interrogate is guilty of "something" and so "deserve whatever they get," or at least "knows a guy who knows a guy" (I would say that torturing "the guy who knows a guy" constitutes torturing an innocent right there, but I doubt you would agree). It's the same Americans that believe that we're mainly fighting "Al Qaeda" in Iraq, that "Al Qaeda" is mainly getting killed in Iraq, that "Al Qaeda" would be waging a ground war in the U.S.A. if we weren't fighting them over there.
Nobody wants innocent people to be put to death accidentally, either, but a whole lot of people still find capital punishment acceptable when victim after victim is proven innocent through DNA after the fact.
Beyond that, torture is a wasteful, ludicrously inaccurate method of securing intel. And a whole lot of Americans are blind to that fact, because they like the idea that our "enemies" are being tortured. It soothes their utter sense of powerlessness to control the future if they can imagine individual human beings being placed in prolonged mortal danger by Americans that have complete control over them. If we can't stop "the terrorists," at least we can stick it to a few of the bastards! And if now and then, we stick it to the wrong guy, well, that's his problem--wrong place at the wrong time, these things happen in war, etc.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:Pay attention sweetie.
Originally posted by Geezer:
Kindly list the occasions where American soldiers have tortured innocent, helpless people and not been punished for it.
I’m not talking about what’s been done; I was replying to Hero's assertion that all ills would be diverted if only we "waterboarded a little more... listened in on one more call... or tracked just one more bank transaction...or gotten just one more phone record from a telecommunications company..." Hero wants us to cast a very broad net, to go after every possible suspect and go after them hard, though he's given no compelling reason that it would actually work.
Some folks around here seem to live in some fantasy 24 world, like there’s a plotline written out nice and clean and all the bad guys are in one network. Obviously, they meet for tea twice a week and discuss all their upcoming terror plots. Oh - and they’re easily identifiable by their steely lack of remorse. They probably wear hats too.
The nefarious plot - the kidnapped innocent or the ticking bomb or whatever - is there for the most manly American man to discover, if only he’s tough and muscular and violent and forceful enough to punch it out of the baddies. Yeah! Testosterone yeah!Um… that’s TV guys. The writers write it that way so you’ll feel good watching it, so you won’t be bothered by guilt when that bad guy is howling in pain, you’ll feel only righteous and heroic. After all, the bastard deserved it. Doing all that evil without any guilt… He must sub-human! Not like us soft squishy but nobly determined heros!
What me and Causal and HK and Signym and other folks are arguing is that taking this simplistic outlook into real life does not work. Trying to live like that, in a black and white world, would only make you one thing: the problem. This cowboy mentality is the very much identical to the mind set of those who do things like set off bombs and hijack planes. Really – can I just quote this again: "The question mankind has always struggled with is 'are you willing to kill for them [your moral beliefs]'? If that answer is no then I'd suggest your cause is doomed to failure”
Who is Hero to say this is the question of all mankind? Obviously, he puts no weight on MLK or Ghandi or Jesus, as was pointed out above. It may be the question he chooses to live by, but it does not define me in any way.
HK: maybe this post in my way of agreeing with your frat-boy comment.
And I’m not holding my breath waiting for an on-the-subject reply from our Noble Manly Hero. Seems there’s lots of boys here who whine and beat their chests, but run away or get tetchy when things get uncomfortable for them. *cough*Jack*cough* 
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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
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Frankly, I'm curious to know how Hero knows that we are getting good intel through waterboarding, etc. There are other more effective (If someone wants the citations, please search WRED for 'em, been posted before), less 'gray' interrogation techniques... perhaps it is these which are getting the good intel? Just a thought. I know I don't know.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Some evidence that we (as a society, not just some individuals) would support torturing innocent, helpless people would also be appreciated.
America loves Jack Bauer who I seem to recall using torture, murder, and blackmail (including simulating the murder of a fella's children) in order to get the information he needs.
H
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