Pakistan's Bhutto Killed in Attack

POSTED BY: deadlockvictim
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 14, 2026 16:40
VIEWED: 12906
PAGE 10 of 16

PREV PAGE 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 NEXT PAGE

HERO

Monday, December 31, 2007 1:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Who is Hero to say this is the question of all mankind? Obviously, he puts no weight on MLK or Ghandi or Jesus, as was pointed out above. It may be the question he chooses to live by, but it does not define me in any way.

Actually your are considering your three worthy examples from the wrong perspective. In the case of King and Ghandi (and Christ's legacy if not himself) the question isn't whether they were willing to kill for their beliefs, it was if their opponants were. This is a rare thing...which is why there are so few examples (although more in America due to the inclusive nature of the system), in that it turns the question upon the listener rather then the speaker.

I note for the record that King was murdered and Christ was executed unjustly. Yet those values they presented were not values to kill for, although much killing was done. The Romans and the Americans were simply not willing to kill in large enough numbers to put those values down. Once those values became the dominant ones, then the killing to preserve them began in ernest because the values were worthy of such protection.

H

HERO

Monday, December 31, 2007 1:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:
Frankly, I'm curious to know how Hero knows that we are getting good intel through waterboarding, etc.

Thats easy. Man does not confess by waterboarding alone. They should be questioned, drugged, questioned, waterboarded, questioned, drugged, etc. Then their answers can be crosschecked with the answers given by others and with other intel such was money transfers, wiretaps, etc.

You never go by what their telling you alone, you combine it with everything else. Its certainly not reliable for the truth of the matter asserted but it gives you information that is very useful combined with the whole.

Perhaps just a name, who we then tap and track, which leads us to others, and suddenly we've busted another cell. Then we hit them up for names, dates, accounts, safe houses, etc.

And you can't tell me it doesn't work because the govt has told us it has worked and I note for the record that only two prisoners have been waterboarded since 9/11, both top ranking Al Queda folks and both giving us info that busted major plots against the United States.

H

GEEZER

Monday, December 31, 2007 2:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I’m not talking about what’s been done; I was replying to Hero's assertion that all ills would be diverted if only we "waterboarded a little more... listened in on one more call... or tracked just one more bank transaction...or gotten just one more phone record from a telecommunications company..."

Hero wants us to cast a very broad net, to go after every possible suspect and go after them hard, though he's given no compelling reason that it would actually work.

But Hero isn't "Amerian society". You're doing the same thing you accuse him of, transferring the opinions (or what you think are the opinions) of some folk to the whole society, and making the whole nation cardboard targets you have no compunction about shooting.

Quote:
Some folks around here seem to live in some fantasy 24 world, like there’s a plotline written out nice and clean and all the bad guys are in one network. Obviously, they meet for tea twice a week and discuss all their upcoming terror plots. Oh - and they’re easily identifiable by their steely lack of remorse. They probably wear hats too.

See?

Quote:
What me and Causal and HK and Signym and other folks are arguing is that taking this simplistic outlook into real life does not work.

Your's, however, is just fine?

It's also interesting that you all focus on the "waterboarded a little more" and skip right over the "listened in on one more call... or tracked just one more bank transaction...or gotten just one more phone record from a telecommunications company..."

Also note that most folk agree that waterboarding per se doesn't work. However, the idea that waterboarding is an option, combined with good psychological technique and normal, tried and true, non-physical interrogation methods, can work.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

SIGNYM

Monday, December 31, 2007 3:20 PM

Quote:
It's also interesting that you all focus on the "waterboarded a little more" and skip right over the "listened in on one more call... or tracked just one more bank transaction...or gotten just one more phone record from a telecommunications company..."

Sure, do all that. BUT ONLY WITH A WARRANT.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

MAL4PREZ

Monday, December 31, 2007 4:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Some evidence that we (as a society, not just some individuals) would support torturing innocent, helpless people would also be appreciated.
America loves Jack Bauer who I seem to recall using torture, murder, and blackmail (including simulating the murder of a fella's children) in order to get the information he needs.

Hmm. Now this makes me if HK is right about this: "Hero may be a wonderful man with a pitch-black sense of humor and a yen for play-acting." Hero, you couldn't prove my point from my above post better. Did you do that on purpose?

On the off chance that you were serious...

Jack Bauer isn't real. It's called fiction. The folks he tortures are not real either. They are all created by writers who want you to like Jack Bauer. They make sure you have reason to.

Recall Serenity the pilot, when Dobson clubbed Book that extra time. Listen to the commentary - Joss wrote that low blow in for us, the viewers. We needed to know that Dobson was bad, very bad. So we wouldn't blame Mal for shooting the guy. So we wouldn't dislike Mal. See how it works?

I suggest you put down the remote control, walk away from your computer, and go out in the real world. Meet some real people. Just hang out. In fact, if you're ever in Vermont, drop me a line. I'll buy you a beer. We'll talk sports or something.

Seriously.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

MAL4PREZ

Monday, December 31, 2007 4:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I’m not talking about what’s been done; I was replying to Hero's assertion that all ills would be diverted if only we "waterboarded a little more... listened in on one more call... or tracked just one more bank transaction...or gotten just one more phone record from a telecommunications company..."

Hero wants us to cast a very broad net, to go after every possible suspect and go after them hard, though he's given no compelling reason that it would actually work.
But Hero isn't "Amerian society". You're doing the same thing you accuse him of, transferring the opinions (or what you think are the opinions) of some folk to the whole society, and making the whole nation cardboard targets you have no compunction about shooting.

Thank goodness he's not American society LOL! But actually, what I'm arguing with is Hero's idea of what American society should be. I'm not transferring his opinion to anyone except those who agree with him that our best solution is to torture freely and give away our rights.

If his opinion isn't yours, I'm not referring to you. See how easy that is?

Quote:
Quote:
Some folks around here seem to live in some fantasy 24 world, like there’s a plotline written out nice and clean and all the bad guys are in one network. Obviously, they meet for tea twice a week and discuss all their upcoming terror plots. Oh - and they’re easily identifiable by their steely lack of remorse. They probably wear hats too.
See?

No. I don't. Really.

I'm talking to Hero. If you don't agree with him, just say so, and don't apply my argument to yourself. Again - easy!

Quote:
Quote:
What me and Causal and HK and Signym and other folks are arguing is that taking this simplistic outlook into real life does not work.
Your's, however, is just fine?

My outlook that I will not become that which I abhor? Yes. I think it's best to not assume I'm on a higher moral plane than everyone else, to not allow myself to step across moral lines that I won't allow others to cross. I think it's better to not think like a terrorist. Do you feel differently?

Quote:
It's also interesting that you all focus on the "waterboarded a little more" and skip right over the "listened in on one more call... or tracked just one more bank transaction...or gotten just one more phone record from a telecommunications company..."

Also note that most folk agree that waterboarding per se doesn't work. However, the idea that waterboarding is an option, combined with good psychological technique and normal, tried and true, non-physical interrogation methods, can work.

My post was long enough already, so I didn't go into the invasion of privacy issues. But I group it with torture in that it is a (much less extreme) case of stepping across our moral lines.

If we did all that Hero wants us to do (and I'm thinking of more than this thread - this isn't the first time the I've been alarmed by Hero's assumptions), we lose the things that make our country worth preserving. We become just like "them."

Come on Geezer. Instead of nit-picking, why don't you try to tell me how Hero's ideas are not actually the same as the extremists on the other side? Why? Does the fact that he feels remorse set him aside? Is it because he may have a Bible and not a Koran behind him? Or is it because he doesn't twirl his mustache? (I assume he doesn't...)

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

GEEZER

Monday, December 31, 2007 4:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
It's also interesting that you all focus on the "waterboarded a little more" and skip right over the "listened in on one more call... or tracked just one more bank transaction...or gotten just one more phone record from a telecommunications company..."
Sure, do all that. BUT ONLY WITH A WARRANT.

In most cases I'd agree. If you're going for evidence leading to charges and a trial, then of course. If you're attempting to stop an attack in progress, not so much. Also not sure how you could get a warrant for, say, NSA computers doing keyword, voiceprint and voice-stress analysis of all international phone calls.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

MAL4PREZ

Monday, December 31, 2007 5:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
If you're attempting to stop an attack in progress, not so much.

You'll note that Hero doesn't suggest this. He suggests a blanket of government torture and spying, throw over lots and people and lots of years, to ferret out nefarious unknown plots like the Bhutto assassination.

Hey - it's one thing when the big bomb is ticking down from two minutes and we need a specific fact (ie the convenient disarming code) in order for James Bond to save the day. (And that happens ALL the time in real life, right?) It's another thing to endlessly spy on and damage people because they might know something or might know someone who knows something or might know someone who knows someone who knows something...

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

CITIZEN

Monday, December 31, 2007 5:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
The Romans

Were apparently cuddle bunnies who wouldn't hurt a fly. Perhaps they should amend the history books.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

KIRKULES

Monday, December 31, 2007 5:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
The Romans
Were apparently cuddle bunnies who wouldn't hurt a fly. Perhaps they should amend the history books.

Damned Romans, what have they ever done for us. "All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"

PREV PAGE 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 NEXT PAGE