5 Myths About the Poor Middle Class
POSTED BY: Geezer
UPDATED: Friday, January 4, 2008 20:04
VIEWED: 6018
PAGE 10 of 10
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I picked GDP because that's what Finn chose to post about. Ask him, don't ask me. :shrugs shoulders:
Thanks for posting the link to nationmaster. I forgot all about it. But I really do have to do something productive today.
You were talking about wealth distribution compared to GDP: "The bottom half of people in the USA divide about 3% of the total wealth between them, while in Ireland, Sweden, Norway etc they share about 12%.", but I think that Income is a more valid correlation.
Nationmaster is pretty useful, isn't it?
WHAT!?! You don't think that RWED is productive??
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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A few notes since Sweden is somewhere I know about.
1) Most urban Swedes dont own cars, in part because public transport is good in part because the government makes it very hard to get licences (for safety and congestion purposes.) The Swedish driving test has 3 manitory parts, a theoretical, a practical and a "slippy test" which is conducted on a rig that can simulate a car skiding. Since the slippy rigs are in short supply it's not uncomon to have to wait several months to attempt that part of the test. Very few people actually pass the test first time. You REALLY have to want a licence to dedicate the time and money needed to get it.
Consequently if "middleclassness" assumes the ownership of a car, then there are problems.
2) Swedish municiple taxes are calculated in part on the square meterage of your property (minus some areas that you get for free like corridors, kitchens and bathrooms. Because the state of the property does not enter into the floorspace calculation a rundown loft or a palacial mansion can pull in the same taxes. Since people dont like paying taxes they tend to live in the smallest homes they can get away with. My own house had the following characteristics.
1) Large kitchen
2) Large bathroom
3) very wide corridors (people tend to use "free" corridor space for other things, I used the hallway as an office.)
So if "middleclassness" assumes large houses then you wont find them in Sweden. Oh but most Urban Swedes also maintain a summer house -- a cottage somewhere in the country many of which get quite large --- ironically these seasonal holiday houses are not taxed if they are not used all year, so it's fairly normal that the summer house is far bigger than the primary home.
3) Swedes have a concept called Lagom, which means "enough" is an important cultural idea. There isnt really conspicuous consumption for example people wont have a TV in a room where it would rarely be used even if it was dirt cheap to buy. If total number of TV's or none essential discresionary spending is an example of "middleclassness" then you might find that missing in Sweden.
It is in short very different. When we moved to the US we went to Target to get towels for our new second (but mostly unused) bathroom. There was no shop like Target in Stockholm and nothing that sold things quite that cheaply. On the other hand the Target towels quickly became threadbear and were replaced while our more expensive Swedish bought towels are still going strong. A Swede won't buy things just because they are cheap, all the textiles and soft furnishings we brought with us are still going strong. A Swede may not have as many TV's or towels or cars but the ones he does have are generally better quality. If you look just at the amount of stuff and not at what it is then you can be missled.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
And that's their choice too. But you want Mr. Corpo to pay for the results of your addiction, but not for theirs. See what I mean about perception being important?
I want one or the other Geeze....
Either pay for my lung cancer treatments, or stop taxing the shit out of my cigarettes and let me worry about that on my own dime.
I don't think you'd disagree with that sentiment, would you?
BTW.... glad you didn't take offence to my last post. The "Fuck you if you can't afford a new engine for your yacht" remark wasn't directed towards you, but anyone who whines about the cost of a yacht engine increasing because of inflation.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
BTW.... glad you didn't take offence to my last post. The "Fuck you if you can't afford a new engine for your yacht" remark wasn't directed towards you, but anyone who whines about the cost of a yacht engine increasing because of inflation.
Not a problem. Besides, my yacht doesn't have an engine, just illegal immigrants chained to the oars.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:I think I'm a misplaced Swede. If I had my 'druthers, we'd have a lot less "stuff" in this house.
Swedes have a concept called Lagom, which means "enough" is an important cultural idea.
Many years ago, when I was young.... We were in the process of moving. My SO was already in our new location, and I stayed back to sell the house. Since we didn't want to move a lot of crap, we decided to sell everything: our trials bikes, what little furniture (mostly second-hand) we'd accumulated... and ship only the necessities (which I had boxed up). My SO took the car since I was within walking distance of work. I had a safe place to sleep, a cool job, lots of friends in my research group, a sleeping bag, a pot, a dish, a mug, a knife, a spoon, a fork, a working kitchen and bathroom, and my clothes. And I had the best time of my life.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Not a problem. Besides, my yacht doesn't have an engine, just illegal immigrants chained to the oars.
If you let me smoke on that job, it may just move up from "job American's don't want" to "freedom is slavery.... sweet smokey slavery".
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Finally, to the article that Finn linked.
Quote:www.timbro.se/bokhandel/pdf/9175665646.pdf
The study, "The EU vs. USA," was done by a pair of economists--Fredrik Bergstrom and Robert Gidehag--for the Swedish think tank Timbro. It found that if Europe were part of the U.S., only tiny Luxembourg could rival the richest of the 50 American states in gross domestic product per capita. Most European countries would rank below the U.S. average, as the chart below shows.
First, an introduction to Timbro. Timbro is a Swedish think-tank, but it’s not socialist as one might think. According to Timbro’s own website, they are "devoted to…. free market principles" www.timbro.se/EnglishDefault.aspx Timbro seems approximately equivalent to the Heritage Foundation. Timbro’s report begins with this
Quote:The intro makes two points: one is about the value of real percapita GDP, and the other is about GDP growth rates. Are both of these points true, and if so what does it mean?
America’s GDP is far higher than Europe’s and has been so for a long time now, and the American economy has been growing faster than the economies of many European countries in recent decades, not least those of countries like France, Germany and Sweden.
According to the latest figures, the EU is significantly behind the USA in per capita GDP: 10 of 15 EU nations cluster between 29,000 and 32,000, while the same proportion of USA states falls between 34,400 to 43,200. So on the face of it, this point is TRUE. However, as we’ve discussed before, this does not necessarily translate to typical living standards. Since income distribution is far more even in the EU, most people in the EU get more of their GDP than most people in the USA. http://politicalcalculations.blogspot.com/2005/12/eu-vs-usa-two-years-
of-economic-data.html In addition, since a large proportion of USA budget goes to the military, more EU GDP goes into direct services like education, health care and transportation. So comparing ‘living standards’ based on per capita GDP is a dicey proposition. Aside from using per capita GDP as a rough estimate of living standards, is there any other possible signifince to this figure? In other words, does this article claim that per capita GDP affects productivity or some other economic measure? I'll have to finish reading to find out.
It would be more indicative if the EU growth rate or productivity rate were falling behind, because that is a portent of the future. And looking at GDP year-to-year growth, the USA growth rate is indeed higher than the EU (but not higher than Sweden, BTW) www.scb.se/templates/tableOrChart____75432.asp. But this leaves out one important factor: population growth. One should expect to see an economy growing along with the population. Since USA population growth is about 0.9% while EU population growth rates are -0.1 to +0.4%, adjusting GDP growth for population growth brings the EU to parity with the USA. According to this website
Quote:www.taurillon.org/Europe-vs-USA-Whose-Economy-Wins
Expressed on a per capita basis, GDP growth rates in the US and the EU are virtually the same over the past decade. The same is true of labour productivity growth.
And speaking of productivity.... lunch is over. Back to work.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:Wow, thanks for that VERY (to me anyway) informative post Fletch!!!!
Originally posted by Fletch2:
A few notes since Sweden is somewhere I know about.
1) Most urban Swedes dont own cars, in part because public transport is good in part because the government makes it very hard to get licences (for safety and congestion purposes.) The Swedish driving test has 3 manitory parts, a theoretical, a practical and a "slippy test" which is conducted on a rig that can simulate a car skiding. Since the slippy rigs are in short supply it's not uncomon to have to wait several months to attempt that part of the test. Very few people actually pass the test first time. You REALLY have to want a licence to dedicate the time and money needed to get it.
Consequently if "middleclassness" assumes the ownership of a car, then there are problems.
2) Swedish municiple taxes are calculated in part on the square meterage of your property (minus some areas that you get for free like corridors, kitchens and bathrooms. Because the state of the property does not enter into the floorspace calculation a rundown loft or a palacial mansion can pull in the same taxes. Since people dont like paying taxes they tend to live in the smallest homes they can get away with. My own house had the following characteristics.
1) Large kitchen
2) Large bathroom
3) very wide corridors (people tend to use "free" corridor space for other things, I used the hallway as an office.)
So if "middleclassness" assumes large houses then you wont find them in Sweden. Oh but most Urban Swedes also maintain a summer house -- a cottage somewhere in the country many of which get quite large --- ironically these seasonal holiday houses are not taxed if they are not used all year, so it's fairly normal that the summer house is far bigger than the primary home.
3) Swedes have a concept called Lagom, which means "enough" is an important cultural idea. There isnt really conspicuous consumption for example people wont have a TV in a room where it would rarely be used even if it was dirt cheap to buy. If total number of TV's or none essential discresionary spending is an example of "middleclassness" then you might find that missing in Sweden.
It is in short very different. When we moved to the US we went to Target to get towels for our new second (but mostly unused) bathroom. There was no shop like Target in Stockholm and nothing that sold things quite that cheaply. On the other hand the Target towels quickly became threadbear and were replaced while our more expensive Swedish bought towels are still going strong. A Swede won't buy things just because they are cheap, all the textiles and soft furnishings we brought with us are still going strong. A Swede may not have as many TV's or towels or cars but the ones he does have are generally better quality. If you look just at the amount of stuff and not at what it is then you can be missled.
Part Swede actually Chrisisall
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Finn, just letting you know I'm getting to that article.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Meanwhile, Bush says Markets 'strong' despite slowing economy. President is upbeat about the economy after meeting with financial advisors. You know you're in trouble when the President has to be a cheerleader for the economy.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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