Pakistan's Bhutto Killed in Attack

POSTED BY: deadlockvictim
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 14, 2026 16:40
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CAUSAL

Friday, December 28, 2007 3:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Are you willing to die for your moral belief?

Yes.

________________________________________________________________________

- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police
- Vote JonnyQuest/Causal, for Benevolent Co-Dictator of Earth; together, toward a brighter tomorrow!

SIGNYM

Friday, December 28, 2007 3:33 PM

Hero- If you propose to waterboard people who have no idea whatsoever about the issue at-hand then you're delusional.

See? I can call names all day long, too. So can we all. Then the board would be filled with exchanges such as

COWARD!

NAZI!

FAGGOT!

Oh, wait. I see it already is! And mostly coming from....er....

Well, thanks for the informative posts then.

NOT.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

MAL4PREZ

Friday, December 28, 2007 4:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
If waterboarding makes you sick, then your being childish.

Being a responsible grown-up means being inured to violence and torture? Is that really what you believe? That losing empathy for other human beings is a goal to strive for?

Think about it - the ability to choke down feelings and do harm isn't a solution. It's the root of most of the world's problems.

I bet the guy who shot Bhutto had very good reasons (in his own mind) to choke down his guilt over killing this woman and all the innocents in the crowd. I bet his reasons were as solid to him and your reasons to torture anyone remotely connected to Islam (or whatever) are to you. And clearly - he was willing to die for his moral beliefs. Does that pass your standards and win your admiration?

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

HERO

Friday, December 28, 2007 4:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Yes.

And your wife, kids, family, and do you have the right to make that decision on behalf of you neighbors? Would you see them all dead just so you don't feel so bad. Seems pretty selfish...childish even.

And dying for your beliefs has never been the standard. The question mankind has always struggled with is 'are you willing to kill for them'? If that answer is no then I'd suggest your cause is doomed to failure.

H

CAUSAL

Friday, December 28, 2007 4:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Yes.

And your wife, kids, family, and do you have the right to make that decision on behalf of you neighbors? Would you see them all dead just so you don't feel so bad. Seems pretty selfish...childish even.

And dying for your beliefs has never been the standard. The question mankind has always struggled with is 'are you willing to kill for them'? If that answer is no then I'd suggest your cause is doomed to failure.

H

I just love the way you can continue to insult me even for being principled. But if you like, why don't you go ahead and do some more of it? You can go ahead and call me a traitor, a coward, a moron. You can accuse me of being gay, being a liberal, being a nincompoop. You can say I've got no experience in the real world. Whatever you like. The sad fact is that I no longer want to be part of this discussion--not because your arguments are ultimately persuasive, but because it's just wearying being attacked on a personal level. There are some really interesting lines of thinking that you've introduced. But I just don't want to wade through the personal bullshit in order to get to it.

________________________________________________________________________

- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police
- Vote JonnyQuest/Causal, for Benevolent Co-Dictator of Earth; together, toward a brighter tomorrow!

SIGNYM

Friday, December 28, 2007 4:33 PM

Quote:
And dying for your beliefs has never been the standard. The question mankind has always struggled with is 'are you willing to kill for them'? If that answer is no then I'd suggest your cause is doomed to failure.

MLK, Ghandi, Jesus.... they were all influential and they didn't kill for their beliefs.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

HERO

Friday, December 28, 2007 4:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Hero- If you propose to waterboard people who have no idea whatsoever about the issue at-hand then you're delusional.

So if we took custody of a fellow some years back, who knew the address of a safe house in Pakistan and the name of people who were connected to terrorism, then was four years later that house and those people were involved in the planning and execution of this attack, you'd oppose interrogation of the prisoner? The people in custody have a lot of information. Names, dates, addresses, contacts, money, weapons caches, codes, phone numbers etc and any of which could lead to other people who have information that could have stopped this attack. Not following those leads and hoping for the best is delusional.

Quote:

See? I can call names all day long, too. So can we all.

I agree. I could say your an ass, but I wont.

I didn't call anyone a name, I described an attitude as childish and I think the issue is worthy of discussion.

Placing one's moral value above saving lives vs. making hard, unpopular, and otherwise morally questionable decisions in order to stop terrorist attack and pursue the ongoing war.

I've suggested that such behaivor is NOT cowardess, as others in my party suggest. I think its because folks don't like to do things that are hard but necessary and that overcoming that natural and understandable tendancy is a sign of maturity.

If you disagree, discuss...

Quote:

COWARD!

NAZI!

FAGGOT!

Hmmm...nice retort...although a tad...childish (in this case the inability to argue a reasoned position without resorting to name calling, hair pulling, or taking your ball and going home).

Here, I'll get you started with something a bit more in line with a reasoned discussion of this valid issue:

"Its not childish. In fact the sacrifice of moral values would mean that while the state may be preserved it is no longer worth preserving. Here is why..."

And so on...

H

HERO

Friday, December 28, 2007 4:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Being a responsible grown-up means being inured to violence and torture? Is that really what you believe? That losing empathy for other human beings is a goal to strive for?

I'd answer that...but I already did and you missed it. Here, from the same post you cited me from:

Quote:

I understand how you feel, but don't let your feelings get in the way of what needs done.

I note for the record that in war sometimes the only way to tell the good guys from the bad guys is that the good guys regret what they have to do.

There...turns out I write more then the first line almost every time.

Quote:

I bet the guy who shot Bhutto had very good reasons (in his own mind) to choke down his guilt...Does that pass your standards and win your admiration?

No. But the courage of our brave soldiers who choke down their guilt at having to kill thier fellow man, they are worthy of admiration cause their the good guys. That fellow who shot Bhutto, he was a bad guy. Not seeing the difference is more of a willful blindness then anything else. I think you folks are patriots, maybe you just need new glasses.

I note for the record I successfully resisted the urge to describe your willfull blindness as childish.

H

HERO

Friday, December 28, 2007 5:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
I just love the way you can continue to insult me even for being principled.

Wow, so you consider your values worthy of you life but not worthy of discussion. Good luck with that.

Quote:

You can go ahead and call me a traitor, a coward, a moron.

I don't need your permission, but lets give it a try...damn...don't consider you any of those.

Sounds a bit self-loathing though I would never say that...being a bit personal and all.

Quote:

You can accuse me of being gay, being a liberal, being a nincompoop.

Ok...well you probably are a liberal but who knows these days(which is not always a negative thing...if you are, be proud, I'm a conservative and proud of it), the rest I can't say I know for one and I sincerely doubt the other.

Quote:

You can say I've got no experience in the real world.

What's experiance got to do with being right? Chamberlain had tons of experiance in world affairs and appeased the Nazis into a war Britain wasn't ready for.

Quote:

The sad fact is that I no longer want to be part of this discussion--not because your arguments are ultimately persuasive, but because it's just wearying being attacked on a personal level.

Ah, the 'taking your ball and going home' argument. Never could figure my way around that one.

Let me try: You are all accusing me of attacking him on a personal level and thats attacking me on a personal level and 'screw you guys, I'm going home'. Nope, I can't sell something like that.

If your position is not childish, argue it. Damn, I could argue it and I don't even believe it. Tell you what, send me $100 and I'll spend the next hour arguing your position for you (like the good lawyer I am). I'll even throw in a vague personal attack.

H

HERO

Friday, December 28, 2007 5:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
MLK, Ghandi, Jesus.... they were all influential and they didn't kill for their beliefs.

Good point. Finally I decent retort. Kinda short though.

How about:

DUNHAM, JASON L.

Rank and Organization: Corporal, United States Marine Corps
For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while serving as Rifle Squad Leader, 4th Platoon, Company K, Third Battalion, Seventh Marines (Reinforced), Regimental Combat Team 7, First Marine Division (Reinforced), on 14 April 2004. Corporal Dunham's squad was conducting a reconnaissance mission in the town of Karabilah, Iraq, when they heard rocket-propelled grenade and small arms fire erupt approximately two kilometers to the west. Corporal Dunham led his Combined Anti-Armor Team towards the engagement to provide fire support to their Battalion Commander's convoy, which had been ambushed as it was traveling to Camp Husaybah. As Corporal Dunham and his Marines advanced, they quickly began to receive enemy fire. Corporal Dunham ordered his squad to dismount their vehicles and led one of his fire teams on foot several blocks south of the ambushed convoy. Discovering seven Iraqi vehicles in a column attempting to depart, Corporal Dunham and his team stopped the vehicles to search them for weapons. As they approached the vehicles, an insurgent leaped out and attacked Corporal Dunham. Corporal Dunham wrestled the insurgent to the ground and in the ensuing struggle saw the insurgent release a grenade. Corporal Dunham immediately alerted his fellow Marines to the threat. Aware of the imminent danger and without hesitation, Corporal Dunham covered the grenade with his helmet and body, bearing the brunt of the explosion and shielding his Marines from the blast. In an ultimate and selfless act of bravery in which he was mortally wounded, he saved the lives of at least two fellow Marines. By his undaunted courage, intrepid fighting spirit, and unwavering devotion to duty, Corporal Dunham gallantly gave his life for his country, thereby reflecting great credit upon himself and upholding the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and the United States Naval Service.

*SMITH, PAUL R.

Rank and Organization: Sergeant First Class, United States Army
For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty:Sergeant First Class Paul R. Smith distinguished himself by acts of gallantry and intrepidity above and beyond the call of duty in action with an armed enemy near Baghdad International Airport, Baghdad, Iraq on 4 April 2003. On that day, Sergeant First Class Smith was engaged in the construction of a prisoner of war holding area when his Task Force was violently attacked by a company-sized enemy force. Realizing the vulnerability of over 100 fellow soldiers, Sergeant First Class Smith quickly organized a hasty defense consisting of two platoons of soldiers, one Bradley Fighting Vehicle and three armored personnel carriers. As the fight developed, Sergeant First Class Smith braved hostile enemy fire to personally engage the enemy with hand grenades and anti-tank weapons, and organized the evacuation of three wounded soldiers from an armored personnel carrier struck by a rocket propelled grenade and a 60mm mortar round. Fearing the enemy would overrun their defenses, Sergeant First Class Smith moved under withering enemy fire to man a .50 caliber machine gun mounted on a damaged armored personnel carrier. In total disregard for his own life, he maintained his exposed position in order to engage the attacking enemy force. During this action, he was mortally wounded. His courageous actions helped defeat the enemy attack, and resulted in as many as 50 enemy soldiers killed, while allowing the safe withdrawal of numerous wounded soldiers. Sergeant First Class Smith’s extraordinary heroism and uncommon valor are in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service and reflect great credit upon himself, the Third Infantry Division “

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