5 Myths About the Poor Middle Class
POSTED BY: Geezer
UPDATED: Friday, January 4, 2008 20:04
VIEWED: 6018
PAGE 8 of 10
Quote:Why? I went through the first opinion piece pretty carefully... carefully enough to realize that their numbers didn't square up because they were changing the base of comparison each time they quoted a figure.
I actually expect you to dismiss everything here outright.
I do intend to go thru the paper, but the factor I intend to look at rather closely is the fallacy of the average. For example: You have ten baseball players sitting on a bench. Nine make $10,000 a year and the tenth makes $5 million. The average salary is $500,000, but that's a misleading figure. The USA has a very uneven distribution of wealth- far more than Europe. It's possible for the USA to have a high average, while still having most of the population here living below the typical standard of living elsewhere. Not saying that it's true, just that it's possible.
BTW- I know a lot of people that our society wouldn't even call "poor'. They rent. They live in really dangerous neighborhoods and send their kids to dangerous, crappy schools. And their biggest headache is reliable transportation, because they drive old beaters that're constantly breaking down and making them late for work, and their kids really do miss out on things like eyeglasses. Maybe things are so much worse because housing expenses in LA are so high, and maybe the high illegal immigrant population is driving down wages but... these are married couples where both work. I'm having a hard time matching that up with the description of the "typical" poor person who owns a house. From my experience it just don't make no sense.
FYI- My SO grew up in Hungary just after WWII. He likes to recall that there were just a few working trucks and most of the bridges had been destroyed. He told me about the old stone buildings in Budapest... listening to 50-caliber rounds walking across the walls in 1956. They're very protective, those old buildings. But they're a bitch to retrofit, because there's no place to put in AC after the fact.
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Always look upstream.
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So, as a quick comment on wealth distribution: The bottom half of people in the USA divide about 3% of the total wealth between them, while in Ireland, Sweden, Norway etc they share about 12%. Even if the European average per capita GDP is lower than the USA's by about 35%, MOST of the European population 's wealth is greater than MOST American's wealth by a factor of two.
Here's the math: If the USA's per capita GDP is- say- "1.0" that would make Europe's per capital GDP "0.65". If half the USA population has only 3% of that "1", their per capita GDP is 3%. But if the bottom half of Europe's population shares 12% of the GDP, their per capital share of the GDP is 12% * 0.6= 7%. So half of their population is richer than ours by about a factor of two. I) 'll double check this tomorrow- this was just a back-of-the-envelope calculation.
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Always look upstream.
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I don't really see your point about perceptions here Geezer. I'm sure people who have always been well off like you and lawyer types like Hero think the economy is doing great. (I'm only assuming based on your previous post that you have always been privelaged.) Unfortunately for your argument, there are many, many more people in the country who either are currently going through employment/health/divorce/debt issues which make the overall situation look a whole lot more grim, or they have certainly felt the pinch in the past. So I guess it comes down to which opinion is more valid.... that of the blessed upper-middle class who have a long way to go down before they could be considered poor, and also have the option at any time to have one parent live at home to raise the children, or the majority lower-middle class/poor/and poverty striken people who inflation really effects?
Sure... who said inflation didn't hit everybody? Not me. But $3.09 for gas and $6.89 for a pack of smokes sure kills the guy making $30,000 a year much more than the guy who's making $90,000 a year. The pain of runaway inflation is only felt by those who are on the lower end of the spectrum... the guys who make so little they actually have to make a choice between smoking and eating, or eating and driving to work. Fuck you if you can't afford a new engine for your yacht.
Inflation is much more than the 3 or so percent has been reported this year. $2.00 for frozen concentrate, $1.89 for a dozen eggs and $ 3.69 for a gallon of off brand skim milk when 2 years ago it was $1.29, $1.19, and $2.29 respectevely, not to mention the price at the pump, make any inflation statistic you've heard in the mainstream media a blatent lie. Just those 3 products alone do that.
We'll see about the AMT Geeze... I don't buy it for a second. I know there was a one year repreive, which incidentally is going to delay tax returns for most people this year, but there are a lot of politicos who were banking on that extra cash coming in within the next 5 to 10 years to infinity and now they're just going to come up with other wonderful schemes like taxing my cigarettes even more to fund midget resizing to make up the difference.
What of my grandfather who raised a family of 7 on a single income as a grocery store manager? Will you concede that this is not possible today?
And sure... smoking is my choice Geeze. I am in no short supply of people who tell me that, but all of those fat fuckers choose to eat more than their share, or they pop their prozac or viagra or they watch too much TV or indulge in too much porn. Whatever...
Don't you think it's amazing that all this anti-smoke legislation and smoking taxes have been passed on all government levels when Repubs had all three seats? I just can't imagine how much worse that will get when the Dems have all three seats a year from now.
BTW... corpo is not paying for my insurance. I'm getting paid less to fund increased health insurance premiums.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Signy come through with the numbers...
Open to confirmation Chrisisall
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...and Six brings it home on a personal level....
In the air Chrisisall
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Quote:What I saw was you dismissing it as propaganda. It’s not a secret that you’re an ardent and diehard proponent of the welfare state. I know this not what you want to hear.
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Why? I went through the first opinion piece pretty carefully... carefully enough to realize that their numbers didn't square up because they were changing the base of comparison each time they quoted a figure.
I actually expect you to dismiss everything here outright.
Quote:Right off the bat, this is not even remotely close to being true. The bottom half of the US population does not divide only 3% of the wealth between them. I don’t know where you get your numbers, but actually, the lowest quintile, that’s lowest 20%, not bottom half, divide around 5% of the wealth in the US and in Sweden they divide about 10% of the wealth. But this still doesn’t address the assertion as provided by the research in this document that 40% of the households in Sweden would be defined as poor by the US Census Bureau.
Originally posted by SignyM:
So, as a quick comment on wealth distribution: The bottom half of people in the USA divide about 3% of the total wealth between them, while in Ireland, Sweden, Norway etc they share about 12%. Even if the European average per capita GDP is lower than the USA's by about 35%, MOST of the European population 's wealth is greater than MOST American's wealth by a factor of two.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Whoah (to use a Keanu phrase), that's a jump, why not just call her a Commie? To have our gov't look out for our best interests (including our health as a population) just keeps us going as consumers and tax-payers, right?
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
It’s not a secret that you’re an ardent and diehard proponent of the welfare state.
Economy-driven Chrisisall
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Quote:Because I don’t think Signym is a communist.
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Whoah (to use a Keanu phrase), that's a jump, why not just call her a Commie?
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
It’s not a secret that you’re an ardent and diehard proponent of the welfare state.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:But she hates America...*just bein' snarky*
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Because I don’t think Signym is a communist.
Maoisall
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Are the European GDP figures
1) Current --- last time I checked the Eurozone had a higher GDP than the US, seems strange that it should appear less. Also seems strange that Luxembourg "makes the list" and Norway doesnt, especially as Norway has one of the best economies in the world according to Forbes.
2) Is this "corrected" GDP? Per capita GDP for Europe doesn't usually take into account shorter work weeks and longer vacations. Factored in the GDP per capita of US and EU as GDP/per worked hour tends to be the same.
Having worked under both systems I would take the standard of living hit for the flexibility of lifestyle.
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