Why did Mal fight in the war?
POSTED BY: Jongsstraw
UPDATED: Thursday, December 6, 2007 04:06
VIEWED: 5639
PAGE 2 of 3
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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I just got home from work ( and the pub ) and I think all the responses here are terrific! Great stuff...thank you.
And I'd like to ask a follow-up question...like the South during the Civil War, what did the independents really hope to gain? DId they really, for a second, think they could possibly defeat the Alliance with endless military resources? What did the Independents, like The South have....besides balls as Badger said? What resources could they really have had, since they were dumped or re-located to these worlds with not too much in the way of comfort and technology, or arms I imagine? Did they think, even with some battle victories, that they keep the Alliance away forever?
My guess is they thought they could make it unprofitable for the Alliance to expand outward. Also, they wouldn't have to hold the Alliance off forever, just long enough for the people, the corporations, or Parliament to say "we've had enough". If they could do that, buy a few decades of peace to develop their own resources, they could then secure a lasting independence.
Trouble was, the Alliance figured that last part out, too...
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I think it's possible that they (Mal's side) thought that they only had to hold them off. That perhaps if they held or cost the Alliance enough that they'd eventually give up hope of taking over the outer worlds.
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Shadow had freedom.
Alliance wanted dictatorship over all the planets and moons. Some people value freedom. Mal and his kind were some of those people, like some of us here in The Land That Was Of The Free.
There are no more "Independent" planets. They are all now enslaved as "Unified". The alliance Core planets steal, rob, extract what they want from the outer bodies without needing to provide anything in return. Sorta like the cities reap what they want from the rural areas without providing much in return. The verse is just a macrocosm of our world.
Your view of how "unenlightened" these places are is a direct result of being subjugated under Alliance rule, not because they succeeded in defeating the Alliance from overtaking them.
Mal and Zoe did not want to be "under the thumb" of the Aliance any more, thus they live on Firefly and cherish what momentary freedoms they can have for now.
Jongstraw, the Independents did not start the war. The Alliance decided to force all of the Unallied, non-Alliance, aka Independent Planets and moons to be subjected to Alliance rule. Look to Earth history , specifically Empires. The Independents were defending their worlds against the crushing club of Alliance control. The Alliance just wanted dictatorial rule over everybody they could reach. They wanted to control everybody, just like on Miranda, and just like River rebelled against.
In America's War for Independence, The Colonies had been under English Crown rule and wanted independence, and ingrained Freedom into their Constitution. The Colonies had started as products of English Rule. In America's Civil War, the Conferrates wanted freedom from the Northern States, in much the same way. The Southern States had each applied and been accepted as members of the United States, and then changed their minds. The U.S. had already been a loose coalition of seperate States, it was only during and after the Civil War that Lincoln's work helped strenghten the Federal powers to bind the United States more strongly.
The Independent had already decided they wanted to be independent and Free. The Alliance decided to test if they were Brave. The Alliance won, and had Unification for 7 years until Mal got out the signal about Miranda.
In short, you are asking Why did the French fight in WWII against Hitler? Why did the English fight in WWII against Hitler - why not just lay down arms and be ruled by Hitler, how bad could it be? Why did the Russians fight in WWII against Hitler? Why did the Poles fight against Hitler in WWII? Why did the Americans fight against invading British in 1812? Why did Koreans, Chinese, Veits fight against Japan in WWII? Because (in WWII) Germany, Italy, and Japan were invading everybody so they could rule all of Earth (and they were winning on every front they fought, until Japan jumped the gun and attacked Pearl Harbor a couple years ahead of plan.)
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Who knows exactly why the war started... but to take a current and controversial example: American involvement in ___ (not just Iraq); was there any reason to invade Iraq (besides having oil and not liking Saddam)? Not really but Bush did, and now you found that Iraqis are joining al-Queada or other insurgent groups; go figure!
But don't forget Joss explicitly mentions that Blue Sun (big corporation) and government are practically one and the same. Now think of the world and how many corporations, mostly American, push their weight around. There are countless stories of these corporations do naughty things in faraway countries.
While, rightfully or not, much of the world dislikes if not outright hates the US. Even within America the tide is turning towards dislike of the current government especially with passing of the Patriot Act and other such measures.
Maybe it might be a little far-fetched, but if you were to combine American corporations with the current American government you wouldn't be far from the Alliance. Far-reaching, almost total reach, on Earth between the two. American military forces are stationed all over the globe; American corporations are everywhere (from McDonald's to Coca-Cola to Wal-Mart to Nike to CNN to Microsoft).
Want did the Independents want to gain? Probably the same thing as al-Queada, for others to stop meddling in their homes.
(Side note: anyone heard that the US Government want to implement biometrically scan all 10 digits of Canadian Citizens upon entering the States within the next two years? Talk about big brother... all those Canucks that have been crashing planes and blowing up buildings...)
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And if someday on some little piss-ant moon/My hand is a little too slow, or my aim a little bit off/At least I’ll go down fighting, not lying abed surrounded by quacks - "Sir Warrick" by Geezer
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Maybe it was just as simple as: they didn't want to be turned into reavers like the Alliance had already done on Miranda. Or, for that matter, any other guinea pig status lab rat.
That is not what FREEDOM and INDEPENDENCE is about.
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Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Maybe it was just as simple as: they didn't want to be turned into reavers like the Alliance had already done on Miranda. Or, for that matter, any other guinea pig status lab rat.
That is not what FREEDOM and INDEPENDENCE is about.
They would have hardly known about that.
No matter how things ended up turning out, I doubt the people who supported (or still do) the Alliance do it because they are Pro-Oppression! They probably see the benefits and don't have to experience the downsides, just like its opponents experience the downsides but don't get to experience the benefits.
The Alliance is the classic example of good intentions leading to hell. The practical application is where is all fails. Not enough resources to handle all the responsibility they loaded upon themselves. Too much control too little service. Doesn't mean they always intended to be that way.
Miranda, on the other hand, is something that hardly anyone knows about. That's what makes it so shocking and terrifying. It's a subset of people in the highest spheres of the Alliance. It's the darkest of the dark, a bad extreme come true, but not the Alliance in its entirety.
Looking at Jiangying, you see atrocities of a similar badness - though no scale - carried out with enthusiasm. Burning people alive? Well, too much independence will lead to such things, as well.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
That is not what FREEDOM and INDEPENDENCE is about.
No matter how things ended up turning out, I doubt the people who supported (or still do) the Alliance do it because they are Pro-Oppression! They probably see the benefits and don't have to experience the downsides, just like its opponents experience the downsides but don't get to experience the benefits.
The Alliance is the classic example of good intentions leading to hell. The practical application is where is all fails. Not enough resources to handle all the responsibility they loaded upon themselves. Too much control too little service. Doesn't mean they always intended to be that way.
More accurately, the Alliance is the classic example of some people thinking that overwhelming government is a suitable substitute for a nanny, parent, welfare provider, and it should supplant the independence the human spirit needs.
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Looking at Jiangying, you see atrocities of a similar badness - though no scale - carried out with enthusiasm. Burning people alive? Well, too much independence will lead to such things, as well.
Perhaps you missed the point. Jiangying is not Independent, it is under Alliance control and responsibility under Unification. You are using the abominations of so-called enlightenment as coonfused examples of Independence.
On another point, in BDM Jayne states that the Alliance started the war, and Mal voluteered to fight it. The Independent worlds didn't start the war.
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Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
That is not what FREEDOM and INDEPENDENCE is about.
No matter how things ended up turning out, I doubt the people who supported (or still do) the Alliance do it because they are Pro-Oppression! They probably see the benefits and don't have to experience the downsides, just like its opponents experience the downsides but don't get to experience the benefits.
The Alliance is the classic example of good intentions leading to hell. The practical application is where is all fails. Not enough resources to handle all the responsibility they loaded upon themselves. Too much control too little service. Doesn't mean they always intended to be that way.
Looking at Jiangying, you see atrocities of a similar badness - though no scale - carried out with enthusiasm. Burning people alive? Well, too much independence will lead to such things, as well.
Perhaps you missed the point. Jiangying is not Independent, it is under Alliance control and responsibility under Unification. You are using the abominations of so-called enlightenment as coonfused examples of Independence.
Jiangying is part of the Alliance formally, as in the planet is somewhere in their files labeled "ours". But that doesn't mean anything, practically. Mal himself said that they wouldn't bother going to a backwater like Jiangying, so what about the abominations going on there is the product of Alliance enlightenment as opposed to the settlers up in the hills doing whatever it is that they want, same as if the Alliance wasn't there at all?
I was using it as an extreme example to show that being free of governmental control is not an immediate stamp of goodness.
There are black and white sides to everything and lots of grey in between. The fact that Mal hates the Alliance doesn't mean their 100% evil. Just like the Independents wouldn't have been all 100% good.
I think it's entirely possible that some political Independents in power on their "free" planets were every bit as oppressive as the Alliance is painted to be, only that they did it in their own name. To the people of that planet, the Alliance might have been a welcome chance at some order.
Quote:
On another point, in BDM Jayne states that the Alliance started the war, and Mal voluteered to fight it. The Independent worlds didn't start the war.
Never said they did, really, so... I'm presuming you didn't address this to me.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
On another point, in BDM Jayne states that the Alliance started the war, and Mal voluteered to fight it. The Independent worlds didn't start the war.
Never said they did, really, so... I'm presuming you didn't address this to me.
Correct.
Alright, I admit to not recognizing the trick questions right off.
From the BDM:
Boy #1 (Borodin): Why ere the independents even fighting us? Why wouldn't they look to be more civilized?
Teacher: ...With all the social and medical advancements we can bring to the independents, why would they fight so hard against us?
Young River: We meddle. People don't like to be meddled with, we tell them what to do, what to think, don't run don't walk we're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We meddle.
Even 2 years younger than the rest of her class, River undrstands the concepts of freedom better than even some of us.
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Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
On another point, in BDM Jayne states that the Alliance started the war, and Mal voluteered to fight it. The Independent worlds didn't start the war.
Never said they did, really, so... I'm presuming you didn't address this to me.
Correct.
Alright, I admit to not recognizing the trick questions right off.
I am not sure what trick questions you refer to but I notice you didn't address anything else I replied to you.
Quote:
From the BDM:
Boy #1 (Borodin): Why ere the independents even fighting us? Why wouldn't they look to be more civilized?
Teacher: ...With all the social and medical advancements we can bring to the independents, why would they fight so hard against us?
Young River: We meddle. People don't like to be meddled with, we tell them what to do, what to think, don't run don't walk we're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We meddle.
Even 2 years younger than the rest of her class, River undrstands the concepts of freedom better than even some of us.
She certainly doesn't look 2 years younger than the others... where do you take that idea from? Not to mention, this scene could easily be construed to be part of River's crazy dream landscape, considering the way it ends. I doubt River was spouting pro-Independent political thought back in the day, no matter how much of a genius. Quite simply because she seems perfectly content in all of her child flashbacks in the series and the River Tam sessions.
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