Why did Mal fight in the war?

POSTED BY: Jongsstraw
UPDATED: Thursday, December 6, 2007 04:06
VIEWED: 5639
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JEWELSTAITEFAN

Wednesday, December 5, 2007 6:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Alright, I admit to not recognizing the trick questions right off.

I am not sure what trick questions you refer to but I notice you didn't address anything else I replied to you.

Quote:

From the BDM:
Boy #1 (Borodin): Why ere the independents even fighting us? Why wouldn't they look to be more civilized?
Teacher: ...With all the social and medical advancements we can bring to the independents, why would they fight so hard against us?
Young River: We meddle. People don't like to be meddled with, we tell them what to do, what to think, don't run don't walk we're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We meddle.

Even 2 years younger than the rest of her class, River undrstands the concepts of freedom better than even some of us.

She certainly doesn't look 2 years younger than the others... where do you take that idea from? Not to mention, this scene could easily be construed to be part of River's crazy dream landscape, considering the way it ends. I doubt River was spouting pro-Independent political thought back in the day, no matter how much of a genius. Quite simply because she seems perfectly content in all of her child flashbacks in the series and the River Tam sessions.

The script in the Serenity Official Companion clearly states in the opening classroom scene that River is 2 years younger than all her classmates.

The trick questions I refer to in this thread are the questions already answered in the series and movie, in fairly direct manner. I excerpted the explanation that River gives to the question posed by Borodin and the Teacher, which is strickingly similar to some of the questions in this thread. Often in discussions of movies, these types of "trick" questions are intentionally inserted into a discussion, and the actual correct response is to quote the movie/show line which asnwers the question in the work. I failed to immediately recall the questions as being already in the BDM, and thus floundered with indirect answers from other references in this body of work, this verse. These are the "trick" questions I referred to.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Wednesday, December 5, 2007 7:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

.... I notice you didn't address anything else I replied to you.

I did not want to drag this shiny thread to where my replies would have taken it. I did not intend to offend you, it was not a slight, it was not personal, I have avoided other replies for the same reasons.
I have reviewed the thread. The posts I made, although perhaps overly concise, were what I intended to say, and I stand by them, both as not needing change, and as contributions to the progress of this thread as I see it. I think that you have also posted your comments and replies in the way you wanted and how you thought you could contribute to this thread. I do not wish to bicker about details when I have already made the points I intended. I leave it up to the reader to decipher which has more or less validity. I don't see much point in repeating myself or requoting myself.

I suppose I could point out - not as direct response - that 4 years after Unification, The Alliance stills needs to recruit River to convert to a weapon. They already control everything in their verse - what do they need new weapons for? The military is essentially now the police, how much weaponry do they think they need to respond to crime? Or do they intend to continue to war against their own citizenry, ala the Clintons vs Branch Davidians?
For that matter, why does an all-loving, benevolent government need to have such a thing as an Operative, when everything is already Unified and Allied under the Axis Powers?
Also, there is a serious problem with disconnecting Responsibility from Authority, when neither of these can exist without the other - they are mutually dependent.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Wednesday, December 5, 2007 9:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
And I'd like to ask a follow-up question...like the South during the Civil War, what did the independents really hope to gain? DId they really, for a second, think they could possibly defeat the Alliance with endless military resources? What did the Independents, like The South have....besides balls & bayonets as Badger said? What resources could they really have had, since they were dumped or re-located to these worlds with not too much in the way of comfort and technology, or arms I imagine? Did they think, even with some battle victories, that they keep the Alliance away forever?

Unlike the paid soldiers sucking at the teat of the Government (Alliance) the independents had ideals and heart, like Rocky.

And just like how in real life, Sylvester Stallone would have gotten his butt whooped by Mike Tyson, the Independents had little or no chance of ever winning from the very beginning, and I don't imagine that many were ever under the impression that the opposite were true.

That definately doesn't mean that it wasn't the right choice to sacrafice and fight to the bitter end though. They were rabid animals backed into the corner and threatened to be caged and they lashed out, more often than not, at the cost of their own lives.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Wednesday, December 5, 2007 9:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
And I'd like to ask a follow-up question...like the South during the Civil War, what did the independents really hope to gain? DId they really, for a second, think they could possibly defeat the Alliance with endless military resources? What did the Independents, like The South have....besides balls & bayonets as Badger said? What resources could they really have had, since they were dumped or re-located to these worlds with not too much in the way of comfort and technology, or arms I imagine? Did they think, even with some battle victories, that they keep the Alliance away forever?

Unlike the paid soldiers sucking at the teat of the Government (Alliance) the independents had ideals and heart, like Rocky.

And just like how in real life, Sylvester Stallone would have gotten his butt whooped by Mike Tyson, the Independents had little or no chance of ever winning from the very beginning, and I don't imagine that many were ever under the impression that the opposite were true.

That definately doesn't mean that it wasn't the right choice to sacrafice and fight to the bitter end though. They were rabid animals backed into the corner and threatened to be caged and they lashed out, more often than not, at the cost of their own lives.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned."

I had thought the war lasted several years. There were numerous outer "independent" worlds, and they apparently united against the Alliance in the war. The Alliance was just the core worlds, out of hundreds. The Alliance needed to travel out to the Independents to combat them. Therefore the Independents actually had the superior defensive position, to be firmly entrenched - look to the VietCong, the Afghani mountain rebels, the Iwo Jima cavecrawlers as examples.
These were not insurmountable odds. Also, since Zoe was referred to as "career army" this indicates each (or some) Independent world had an Army itself.
There would be many reasons to consider this was not a futile attempt at defeating the Empire...errr, Alliance.
Just like every American Saturday in the fall, teams take to the field of gridiron battle to see who wins, regardless of who was supposed to be the victor on paper.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Wednesday, December 5, 2007 9:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TPage:
Maybe it might be a little far-fetched, but if you were to combine American corporations with the current American government you wouldn't be far from the Alliance. Far-reaching, almost total reach, on Earth between the two. American military forces are stationed all over the globe; American corporations are everywhere (from McDonald's to Coca-Cola to Wal-Mart to Nike to CNN to Microsoft).

Not so far fetched when you figure that before many of us proles were aware of it, China had been developing into quite the superpower.

Personally, I don't see how any person would be able to resist losing their privacy and freedom had Corpo-America and Corpo-China were to pool their resources and make it so. I have little doubt in my mind that the extents to which this is already happening are greater than Joss could have even imagined.

Joss showed us (in interplanetary fasion) what is to happen to us when this almost inevitable union's intentions have come to the forefront, and trust me.... the day that it is clearly visible to the public, it will be FAR too late to do anything to reverse it. Today's technology, though our greatest pastime, will ultimately be the tool that brings us all (in many cases happily) under one unified rule.

Take away the ability of man to chose for himself and you have taken his humanity.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

6IXSTRINGJACK

Wednesday, December 5, 2007 10:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I had thought the war lasted several years. There were numerous outer "independent" worlds, and they apparently united against the Alliance in the war. The Alliance was just the core worlds, out of hundreds. The Alliance needed to travel out to the Independents to combat them.

That's the drift that I caught.

Think about today though. How many people live in America compared to the rest of the world?

300,000,000 compared to the other 6,200,000,000 people on the planet. If you believe everything you hear on the news (which is very foolish of you if you do) everyone in the world, including many Americans, hate America and its foreign policy. This has been going on for MANY years, and I have yet a real worry about somebody being powerful enough or have enough desire to try to take us down.

One reason, for instance, is that it's popular (and with very good reason, I would suppose) to hate America if you aren't American. But does that mean that everyone else is ready to side with China or Russia against us and risk bringing the beast of Communism on their shores in the process?

Another reason would be our ideal position on the globe. What the Europeans didn't have in WWI and WWII that we benefited from is two very large oceans on both sides, a population of people who are very ready to fight to the south, and the cast of Saturday Night Live to the North. Any attempt at an attack on America (before the spread of today's technology and the fact that we don't have ANY border control today) would have been as futile as Sauron's attack on Helm's Deep. We just have such a huge advantage given the geographical playing field.

Third reason would be that, though I don't doubt many of the Independents did band together, like you said, the Alliance had the "center" of the 'verse. Right in the middle of a lot of unification which could have taken place otherwise.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

NCBROWNCOAT

Thursday, December 6, 2007 4:06 AM

I just found this thread and it's been interesting reading the posts. As an American Studies major (OK, it was a long time ago) and a history buff most of the answers that I've read are very good and are very valid reasons for Mal to fight.

Why any one chooses to go into a volunteer military and freely choose to fight for one's country, state, locality or even block are as many and varied as there are soldiers.

I think it would make an interesting fic for someone to write about this subject. I've touched on the subject but haven't explored I've only touched the surface lightly.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

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