And now for something completely different
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Sunday, November 25, 2007 19:14
VIEWED: 15117
PAGE 8 of 14
Quote:You're making the sweeping statement that they're all liars, based on nothing more than the fact that you've decided that's the case. Rationalise it as you wish, but what you're doing is saying "when they say they believe something, they're lying", you don't know what they believe, you're not them, and you're not in their head.
Originally posted by leadb:
It would be, but you see, I'm not. I'm not claiming to be the final arbiter of their belief, I am merely observing the words they are uttering are lies. That is the difference.
You don't have the right to make sweeping statements about which beliefs can be taken on face value, and which can automatically called lies. If someone says they believe something, you have no right to call them a liar, even if you know for certain their belief is just a joke.
You debunked your own position in an earlier post, with the stop sign thing. You can't make sweeping statements that someone else sees things the way you do. Even if, as far as your concerned, it's just calling a spade a spade.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Completely re-editted.
Quote:I am observing the universe and making a judgment call. I suspect I will be disappointing you in this regard.
Originally posted by citizen:Quote:You're making the sweeping statement that they're all liars, based on nothing more than the fact that you've decided that's the case. Rationalise it as you wish, but what you're doing is saying "when they say they believe something, they're lying", you don't know what they believe, you're not them, and you're not in their head.
Originally posted by leadb:
It would be, but you see, I'm not. I'm not claiming to be the final arbiter of their belief, I am merely observing the words they are uttering are lies. That is the difference.
Quote:I believe I have the right to speak the truth. The sad part, is if I'm wrong, then the worst 'price' of what I said was bad about this has come to pass; a genuine believer has taken root from what was intended only to be an execize in logic to prevent creationism from being taught in school. I warned you there would be possibly a heavy price to pay from this tactic.
You don't have the right to make sweeping statements about which beliefs can be taken on face value, and which can automatically called lies.
Quote:I disagree. If I know for certain that it is a joke, then I certainly do have the right to call statements which profess that which is not true to be lies.
If someone says they believe something, you have no right to call them a liar, even if you know for certain their belief is just a joke.
Quote:No, you declared victory and moved on. If you re-read carefully you will see your position is not supportable. Feel free to try to defend it.
You debunked your own position in an earlier post, with the stop sign thing.
Quote:I made no claim that some see things the way I do or not, I merely said the words they were expressing were lies
You can't make sweeping statements that someone else sees things the way you do.
Quote:
Even if, as far as your concerned, it's just calling a spade a spade.NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:You're making objective sweeping statements based on nothing more than you're own subjective belief. Rationalise your bias as you wish.
Originally posted by leadb:
I am observing the universe and making a judgment call. I suspect I will be disappointing you in this regard.
Quote:So if I truly believed that Christianity wasn't a real belief I'd be able to say "All Christians are liars" and be able to qualify it in all the ways you are. Personally I think no one has the right to tell other people what they believe, you obviously think differently, though to make it more palletable you've covered it with a layer of confirmation bias. You're not really telling people what they believe, because they don't really believe it, because it's not a real belief, and if it's not a real belief, no one can really believe it, which means you can't be telling people what they believe...
I believe I have the right to speak the truth.
Quote:So people believing in the FSM is a heavy price? Personally I don't care what people believe, it's up to them, but if you hate the FSM that much that you think one person actually believing in it is a heavy price, well kinda confirms what I've been saying.
I warned you there would be possibly a heavy price to pay from this tactic.
Quote:You don't know for certain, it's pure arrogance to presume you know for certain what another person believes. The same rationalisation also means I can say "all Christians are liars" as long as I really believe it, which just goes to support what I said earlier, that the two sentences are equivalent.
I disagree. If I know for certain that it is a joke, then I certainly do have the right to call statements which profess that which is not true to be lies.
Quote:This isn't a refutation of what I said, it's a red herring. However the only person "declaring victory" and moving on here is you, with your "Your position is not supportable" crap. If you actually read what has been said on both sides, you should realise that you're circular logic feeding off of a preconceived bias, is just a house of cards. If you look carefully at what I've been saying, it's that no one knows the contents of another persons head, and has no right to presume that they do. What particular part of that is unsupportable? The part where it doesn't play into your idea that you have the final say on what is and what is not a belief?
No, you declared victory and moved on. If you re-read carefully you will see your position is not supportable. Feel free to try to defend it.
I'm sure Christians, Hindus, Jews, Muslims etc. are breathing a big sigh of relief that you have arbitrarily decided that their beliefs are real ones, so that they can say "I believe" without the final arbiter of belief coming down and saying "No you don't, LIAR!".
Quote:Accept it or not, that is exactly what you're doing. You've decided (arbitrarily) that FSM isn't a belief for anyone, and that furthermore anyone who says they do believe in it is a liar. How they see things doesn't work into your equation, you've decided what they're doing, and how they see it, based only on your perception, and your forcing your perception on other people.
I made no claim that some see things the way I do or not, I merely said the words they were expressing were lies
EDIT:
Look, I don't want to come across as if I'm calling you a bigot or something, and it seems we're talking cross wires. I'm not talking about the specific case of the FSM, I'm talking about general belief. I'm saying that if someone says "I believe X" no one else has the right to say "no you don't". You can disagree with their belief, you can think it's stupid, if you don't mind being insulting you can tell them they're believing a lie, but you catagorically CANNOT say that they're statement "I believe X" is a lie. The only evidence either way is locked up inside their grey matter, evidence you can have no possible access too. Even if you really really really think their
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Quote:We've round the wagons a few times already. You either do not understand what I'm saying, or you are deliberately trying to obscure it.
Originally posted by citizen:Quote:So if I truly believed that Christianity wasn't a real belief I'd be able to say "All Christians are liars" and be able to qualify it in all the ways you are.
Originally posted by leadb:
I believe I have the right to speak the truth.
First, you can say or do anything you want; you merely have to be prepared to pay the consequences.
Second, if you believe that person X does not believe in Christianity; and X claims he does; and you have reason to believe X is lying (eg: he is known to solitict funds from empathetic people for poor children in Nigeria; but is really funding his private retirement island near Australia), then by all mean, call him a liar. Find me, and if you can convince me, I'll be right behind you.
Keep in mind you can call someone who professes belief in something a liar without challenging the validity of that which they are professing.
In the case of FSM, I believe this is a completely bogus religion created for the purpose of convincing school boards to not include ID in the school science books.
I believe those who are professing belief in the FSM are lying for the purpose of convincing folks such as the school boards to not include things such as ID in the school science books, in some cases as a simple lark, and in some cases, simply to upset other folks. You are welcome to disagree.
And yes, I personally consider it a tragedy if a single person becomes a genuine believer in the FSM because of this tactic. I appreciate that you do not; and this is at least one of our genuine differences. I am willing to consider this a point of disagreement that needs no further discussion.
While I appreciate your attempting to vest me with the title of arbiter, I must decline for personal reasons. If you would like the title, you are welcome to it. Otherwise, you are going to have find another for the title; but beware, generally those willing to accept the title are not worthy of it.
Finally, I have professed my beliefs above, and I resent you trying to stop me from professing my beliefs. You don't have the right to do it.
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Quote:I can say the same of you. I can also say that I'm not sure you realise the implications of what you are saying.
Originally posted by leadb:
We've round the wagons a few times already. You either do not understand what I'm saying, or you are deliberately trying to obscure it.
Quote:Completely different thing. You're comparing calling one Christian a liar because they demonstrably do not follow the Christian faith (though that still doesn't prove they don't believe in it), to making a blanket statement for anyone that makes a certain statement.
Second, if you believe that person X does not believe in Christianity; and X claims he does; and you have reason to believe X is lying (eg: he is known to solitict funds from empathetic people for poor children in Nigeria; but is really funding his private retirement island near Australia), then by all mean, call him a liar. Find me, and if you can convince me, I'll be right behind you.
Quote:I said exactly this in my last post. I have no problem with people saying they disagree, or that someone's faith or belief is a lie, I have a problem with saying someone is lying about what they believe in, because you can't know, and you have no evidence to prove it. Not to mention it's just not your place to say.
Keep in mind you can call someone who professes belief in something a liar without challenging the validity of that which they are professing.
Quote:And if I said "You don't really believe that, you are a liar"? Its not my place to say whether you believe something or not, I have to take your statement of belief at face value.
In the case of FSM, I believe this is a completely bogus religion created for the purpose of convincing school boards to not include ID in the school science books.
Quote:Believe as you wish, it doesn't give you the right to then tell other people they are lying about their beliefs, based on your belief. What makes your statement of belief better than theirs? What if I said "I don't believe you really think that, you're a liar"? Hows that any different from what you've done? And how can I have the right to tell you with more authority what is in side your head?
I believe those who are professing belief in the FSM are lying for the purpose of convincing folks such as the school boards to not include things such as ID in the school science books, in some cases as a simple lark, and in some cases, simply to upset other folks. You are welcome to disagree.
Quote:Fair enough.
And yes, I personally consider it a tragedy if a single person becomes a genuine believer in the FSM because of this tactic. I appreciate that you do not; and this is at least one of our genuine differences. I am willing to consider this a point of disagreement that needs no further discussion.
Quote:So you're beliefs are better than theirs? You can't be stopped from 'professing' your beliefs, but you can prevent others from doing it? I can't say “You don't have the right to tell others what their beliefs are”, but I do have the right to say “Leadb, you don't really believe that, you're just trying to wind me up, you're a liar”?
Finally, I have professed my beliefs above, and I resent you trying to stop me from professing my beliefs. You don't have the right to do it.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Anti-Pasta Farians Unite!
Do you believe? Do you honestly believe? If so, you may declare yourself an Anti-Pasta Farian.
To make this claim, you need only profess the faith!
I believe the Pastafarian religion of the FSM is a completely bogus religion created for the purpose of convincing school boards to not include ID in the school science books.
I believe those who are professing belief in the FSM are lying for the purpose of convincing folks such as the school boards to not include things such as ID in the school science books, in some cases as a simple lark, and in some cases, simply to upset other folks.
If you believe as I do, join me! Join me now! There are those amoungst the population who would suppress us; we must resist. Fight now, or your right to speak your truth may be gone forever!
Help! Help! I'm being repressed!!!!
LeadB,
President of APFL (Pronounced like apple, but with an F thrown in.
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Hi !!!!
I'm DRAyKE.
I run the Baltimore BrownCoats fan club in....
Taaa... Daaaa....
Baltimore, Maryland !!!!
(Surprised?)
Anywho....
I scan the globe/net trying to find NEW info on Serenity/Firefly, so as to pass it on to my club.
Is there any news of a sequel?
WE had heard that Joss could not do any Serenity in the near future since he was doing "Wonder Woman"!
But WE have heard that, itis not happening now...
So...
Any plans for sequel?
(Echo...?)
Like we have been buying the DVDs like crazy over here.
What else can we DO!!!??:?
Mucho Thanks!!!
DRAyKE
She's disturbing my calm....
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DRAyKe,
Welcome to the boards. You probably picked a poor thread to get serious dialog on the topics you mentioned... let me dig a second...
Edit:
Here's a 'particular' thing you can advocate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=20&t=31523
You will notice this is in a group of threads called
'Firefly and Serenity Guerilla Marketing'
and you can find other items on this topic.
If you want to talk about this kind of stuff, you will find the 'most' people in the threads under 'General Discussion'
You have started your thread in
'Real World Event Discussions'
where most folks discuss things like who is running for president, the impact of federal reserve actions on the value of the dollar, and some seriously controversial religious and science discussions. However, I personally will support your right to post anywhere!
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Quote:Thanks for sayin', sig. This is a key point. Can you see that leadb *is* talking about the FSM? As am I?
Originally posted by citizen:
I'm not talking about the specific case of the FSM, I'm talking about general belief.
Sig, I don't post much so you don't know that I am a fan. I lurk and cheer you on most times, cause I like how you think and express yourself. But in this one you're being a tad overly stubborn, imho. In principle we all agree that all belief systems are equal in the eyes of the law. No one here is disputing the equality of ID and FSM in the eyes of logic and the law. But you're kinda forcing the idea where it's not needed. Staunching standing up for True Belief in the FSM (which, given the above quote, is not what you mean but is how the thread has come off to me) kinda makes you look foolish. Sorry, I mean it lovingly, but still...
I've just described this thread to my feminist activist atheist friends - one lawyer and one biological engineer - and they agree with me.
Edit: has anyone noticed that the tongue emotiguy isn't working lately? Is it just me?
-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
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Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:
DRAyKe,
Welcome to the boards. You probably picked a poor thread to get serious dialog on the topics you mentioned... let me dig a second...
*****
Sorry...
Any idea on where I should be posting this?
Also my bad for not posting the
BALTIMORE BROWNCOATS
Site Addy!
http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/baltimorebrowncoats/
Thanks,
DRAyKE
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