Aurap..siggy ..it some CFR...
POSTED BY: kaneman
UPDATED: Friday, November 9, 2007 02:01
VIEWED: 13706
PAGE 18 of 21
Auraptor: What would the USSR want with Afghani oil? They got a shit load of their own! AFA being Anti-Soviet: The USSR went into Afghanistan, built roads, schools, and hospitals. They stayed long enough that they trained thousands of women doctors... who BTW became the first victims of OUR Taliban. If we had focused on the stability of Afghanistan, rather on trying to maintain our extended reach over the Middle East (because WE wanted the oil, not because the Soviets did!) we would have left well enough alone.
At the time, Iran was a hotbed of radical Islam. It would have benefited us to have a stable, prosperous, secular nation in the area rather than a radicalized failed state.
You say that it would have been "hard" to make any other decision. Then what you're saying is that we (our State Department and who-all else) is incapable of learning from history because history teaches us that blowback is a bitch. A lot of times a principled decision while looking flawed in the short term is actually to our benefit in the long run. And maybe if we stopped operating out of reflex we might be able to suck it up and do what's right and practical.
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:Quote:Saying Chechnyan rebels are Islamic terrorists is irrelevant, stupid and a lie. If aid from Al Qaeda makes acts not inspired by Islam "Islamic Terrorism", then IRA bombings in Britain are "American Terrorism", despite not being inspired by America, because the IRA got much of their funding from American citizens.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Not only is that a lie, it's also incredibly irrelevant.
Chechan rebels are Muslims. Muslims committing terrorist attacks. They receive help from other Muslims, who themselves are terrorists. Your IRA comparision is completely invalid because these 'Americans', as you call them, are made up mostly,if not entirely, of Irish descendants living in America. While being US citizens, they aren't reflective of most Americans. Bottom line is, you can't compare folks living here in the US to the rank and file members of al Qaeda, which are all trained and brainwashed to kill the infidels, where ever they find them. It's a moot point.
The CIA never funded al Qaeda. They receive their funding from around the world, from front organizations posing as 'Relief' outfits for palestinians and the like, as well as an array of other phony outfits as well. They also get funding from rich Oil sheiks, mainly in Saudia Arabia. And OBL himself was a very wealthy man, before he was exiled. I'm sure he's got a few pennies to rub together himself. al Qaeda is a crime organization which finds funding w/ out help from the CIA.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Auraptor: What would the USSR want with Afghani oil?
I never said "Afghani oil". Dude, this is an entirely different thread. I'm done w/ this one.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:Okay, Mideast oil. But again, what would the USSR want with Mideast oil? They got a shitload themselves. The ONLY thing they could do is deny us and Europe access. Of the two, we would weather that issue better. In fact, we could have eliminated our need for Mideast oil by increasing fuel efficiency.
allow the Soviet Union to control the territory, being once step closer to all the mid east Oil and a warm water port
I said before that fear makes people do stupid things, and that works collectively as well as individually. We were taught to be afraid of Communism, so we reacted reflexively each time ANY form of socialism popped up, and denied such modest steps as land reform or more equitable deals for oil, creating tyranny in the Phillipines, Indonesia, Chile, Iran, Nicaragua, Panama, Brazil, Afghanistan, Guatemala and many other places, all under the flag of "anti Communism". So now we're cozying up to Pakistan (which has done more to spread nuclear technology throughout the Islamic nations than any other nation) and Saudi Arabia (which funds terrorists and is a radical Muslim tyranny), and any other tinpot dictatorship in the area that'll have us (Uzbekistan and all the other 'stans).
But if we really want to live in a peaceful, democratic world... a world where we don't have a big bull's eye painted on our backs... then we should be backing peaceful, democratic, transparent governments, not fostering horror. Tough in the short run? You bet. But better in the long run.
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:I know, but that doesn't mean it's Islamic Terrorism. It's an inordinately simple concept that you seem unable or unwilling to grasp, Islamic Terrorism IS NOT terrorism committed by Muslims, it's terrorism committed in the name of Islam. A Muslim can commit a terrorist act without it being Islamic Terrorism, and you've shown no Islamic component to Chechnyan terrorist motivations. The Terrorists being Muslim is incidental if they're not committing terrorist acts because of Islam.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Chechan rebels are Muslims. Muslims committing terrorist attacks. They receive help from other Muslims, who themselves are terrorists.
Quote:So Irish-Americans aren't normal Americans huh. In a country built on immigration you can't separate people from the general population based on ancestry, they're just American. If you try and separate them out because affiliation is inconvenient to you, your being nothing more than racist.
Your IRA comparision is completely invalid because these 'Americans', as you call them, are made up mostly,if not entirely, of Irish descendants living in America. While being US citizens, they aren't reflective of most Americans.
Actually my IRA analogy is completely valid, because the premise that Beslan was Islamic Terrorism and the premise that IRA Terrorism is American Terrorism are both invalid for the same reasons. Again you manage to miss the point spectacularly.
Quote:I didn't compare them to Al Qaeda, read what I write rather than making it up as you go along.
Bottom line is, you can't compare folks living here in the US to the rank and file members of al Qaeda, which are all trained and brainwashed to kill the infidels, where ever they find them. It's a moot point.
Quote:Actually there is evidence to suggest the CIA funded Al Qaeda, and were still funding them in 1995 (as per a French intelligence report). They had motive too, during the 80's Al Qaeda was fighting Soviet Russia, so they were a convenient proxy.
The CIA never funded al Qaeda. They receive their funding from around the world, from front organizations posing as 'Relief' outfits for palestinians and the like, as well as an array of other phony outfits as well. They also get funding from rich Oil sheiks, mainly in Saudia Arabia. And OBL himself was a very wealthy man, before he was exiled. I'm sure he's got a few pennies to rub together himself. al Qaeda is a crime organization which finds funding w/ out help from the CIA.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
citizen wrote: So Irish-Americans aren't normal Americans huh. In a country built on immigration you can't separate people from the general population based on ancestry, they're just American. If you try and separate them out because affiliation is inconvenient to you, your being nothing more than racist.
Ahh..the 'racist' card. A clear indication that I've won this debate and left you floundering for some ounce of dignity. The interest of Irish Americans per the IRA and the issues w/ England aren't those shared by a vast majority of Americans. I wish I could say your sad, petty attempt to make this into some sort of 'race' issue is a new low, even for you - but it's par for the course. In a country built on immigration, we clearly can seperate people from the general population based on their actions and their support for the IRA. Most Americans are pretty unaware of the whole conflict, either way. There's nothing in the least 'racist' about it at all, its simply pragmatic. The N.Ireland conflict was never really on the radar as a concern for the average American. Sorry, it just was not nor is not.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Whatever dude, you're the one who alluded to Irish-Americans not being 'Americans', not me. I'm not playing the racist card at all, I said denying a group of people as American because you find their inclusion inconvenient is racist, and you know what, it really is. As for a new 'low', someone who has been calling people terrorists and terrorists-sympathisers throughout this thread has no right whatsoever to talk about lows.
It appears you've moved on to your usual tactic of faux outrage and declarations of 'I win' to try to convince yourself that your argument didn't collapse about half a thread back. Whatever lets you sleep at night man, no one is fooled, so I'll just leave you to it.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:Again, I never did any such thing, not once, not ever. Your built in bias towards me or whom ever really must be looked at.
Originally posted by citizen:
Whatever dude, you're the one who alluded to Irish-Americans not being 'Americans', not me.
Quote:
I'm not playing the racist card at all, I said denying a group of people as American because you find their inclusion inconvenient is racist, and you know what, it really is.
I never denied them as being Americans what so ever. Stop smoking the funny weed! I said that outside of Irish Americans, not many give a damn about the religious scrap of N.Ireland.
It appears you've moved on to your usual tactic of faux outrage and declarations of 'I win' to try to convince yourself that your argument didn't collapse about half a thread back. Whatever lets you sleep at night man, no one is fooled, so I'll just leave you to it.
You're just fussy that I didn't roll over as soon as you brought out the bogus 'race card' and called you on your lame attempt to skirt the issue. As usual. There's no faux outrage here on my part at all, just exaspiration as you, once again, try to distort the issue because you have nothing to back you up.
You'd have done better for yourself had you just left it BEFORE you tried the lame race baiting. No one is fooled by your lame tactics, that much you did get right.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Rap,
I never did get an answer to this ....
Rue: Is your argument that when people die b/c of the US it's somehow better ?
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Rap: Absolutely.
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Rue: Then explain - HOW is it better ?
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Rap,
I never did get an answer to this ....
Rue: Is your argument that when people die b/c of the US it's somehow better ?
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Rap: Absolutely.
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Rue: Then explain - HOW is it better ?
It's called 'sarcasm'. I really thought this thread wa long dead. Sheesh.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME