Aurap..siggy ..it some CFR...
POSTED BY: kaneman
UPDATED: Friday, November 9, 2007 02:01
VIEWED: 13706
PAGE 15 of 21
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So, in Iraq alone the US has caused AT LEAST 10x more deaths than Jihadists have worldwide.
Do you still say they are more evil ?
So you are holding the US responsible for all deaths caused by sectarian strife?
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Quote:Er, no. I was quoting a report about Guatemala not Iraq. No Jihadists, just a corrupt government and a bunch of Mayan victims.
Read descriptions ? Now you're fucking joking. Given by who? The very Islamo -fascists who did such horrendous acts themselves, only to cry to a believing world media who accepts the lies of thugs and cut throats ?
Quote:Well, many of these military folks were trained and armed by the USA, and some of them were actually on our payroll while all of this was happening. So.... we outsourced terrorism but we promoted it just the same.
That's bullshit and you know it! NONE of that was done by the USA. This crap ' brougth to you by ' is simple code for.. " well, others did it, but not US soldiers, so we can't accurately blame it on them, nor did they WANT it to happen, but becasue someone else did it, we'll simply blame the US because....... we got nothing else. What a fucking joke.
But if you want to see American bloodied hands (as opposed to "outsourced" torture and tyranny) all you have to do is look at our history in Vietnam:
Quote:
So the CIA adopted the Ho's strategy-but on a grander and bloodier scale. The object of Contre Coup was to identify and terrorize each and every individual VCI and his/her family, friends and fellow villagers. To this end the CIA in 1964 launched a massive intelligence operation called the Provincial Interrogation Center Program. The CIA (employing the US company Pacific Architects and Engineers) built an interrogation center in each of South Vietnam's 44 provinces. Staffed by members of the brutal Special Police, who ran extensive informant networks, and advised by CIA officers, the purpose of the PICs was to identify, through the systematic "interrogation" (read torture) of VCI suspects, the membership of the VCI at every level of its organization; from its elusive headquarters somewhere along the Cambodian border, through the region, city, province, district, village and hamlet committees.
... Eventually the irrepressible Americans added their own improvements. In his autobiography Soldier, Anthony Herbert describes arriving in Saigon in 1965, reporting to the CIA's Special Operations Group, and being asked to join a top-secret psywar program. What the CIA wanted Herbert to do, "was to take charge of execution teams that wiped out entire families."
By 1967, killing entire families had become an integral facet of the CIA's counter-terror program. ... Yes, the CIA has a global, illegal strategy of terrorizing people, although in typical CIA lexicon it's called "anti-terrorism." {Because} When you're waging illegal warfare, language is every bit as important as weaponry and the will to kill. Neil Sheehan... recently confessed that in 1966 he saw US soldiers massacre as many as 600 Vietnamese civilians in five fishing villages.
Phoenix Comes To Thanh Phong
The CIA launched its Phoenix Program in June 1967, after 13 years of tinkering with several experimental counter-terror and psywar programs, and building its network of secret interrogation centers. A typical Phoenix operation began in a Province Interrogation Center where a suspected member of the VCI was brought for questioning. After a few days or weeks or months undergoing various forms of torture, the VCI suspect would die or give the name and location of his VCI comrades and superiors... By 1969 the CIA, through Phoenix, was targeting individual VCI and their families all across Vietnam. Over 20,000 people were assassinated by the end of the year and hundreds of thousands had been tortured in Province Interrogation Centers....Phoenix, alas, also was fiendishly effective and became a template for future CIA operations. Developed in Vietnam and perfected with the death squads and media blackout of Afghanistan and El Salvador, it is now employed by the CIA around the world.
www.counterpunch.org/valentine.html
BTW- I would not have believed this article had I not seen news clips of torture, of people being thrown
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What Auraptor? No moral outrage?
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
What Auraptor? No moral outrage?
Patience is a virtue, all good things come to those who wait, a watched kettle never boils, etc, etc, etc.
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"You recycling your flawed argument isn't going to change the facts."
But WHY is it flawed ? Can you answer that question ?
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:Okay, THIS is why I'm bowing out now. You knowledge of history is laughable. The Contras were battling the populace to make them unhappy that the Sandinistas couldn't protect them. There were few good guys in that arena, but the Contras were the worst.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
These contras were battling Soviet trained Sandinistas,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contras
There's a link that you probably won't read, as it challenges your beliefs on these matters, AU.
You got no rudder, AURaptor. Right-wing propaganda blows northerly, you go north.
Later, Chrisisall
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Rap
"You recycling your flawed argument isn't going to change the facts."
But - WHY - is it flawed ? Can you answer that question ?
Is it because American deaths count and Iraqi deaths don't ? Is it because 'they' intend to kill small numbers of civilians while the US merely discounts civilians and so kills wholesale numbers ? Is it because the US sometimes says OOPS afterwards, so it makes it all right ?
Tell me - WHY - is it flawed ?
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Rap
"You recycling your flawed argument isn't going to change the facts."
But - WHY - is it flawed ? Can you answer that question ?
Is it because American deaths count and Iraqi deaths don't ? Is it because 'they' intend to kill small numbers of civilians while the US merely discounts civilians and so kills wholesale numbers ? Is it because the US sometimes says OOPS afterwards, so it makes it all right ?
Tell me - WHY - is it flawed ?
First of all, because it's not, as you put it, American deaths vs Iraqi deaths. If you had taken the time to look at the pics I posted, this is WELL beyond Iraq. That's one major flaw. Secondly, the US isn't killing civilians by design or intent. That's a HUGE flaw on your part. The US not only doesn't want to civilian deaths, its gone far out of its way, risking the lives of our own soldiers to SAVE civilian lives. And that's not even bringing up the issue of laser or GPS guided munitions! In contrast, the Islamo-fascist seek out to kill/maim as many innocents as they can! A colossal flaw in your comparison, w/ out question.
It's not an issue of 'oops', mind you.If an opposing army puts a valued target in a high civilian population, THEY, not the US are putting those lives as risk. What do you expect the US military to do ? Not take out a site which is crucial to winning the war? " Oh, sure, we might lose this battle or have to sacrifice a few hundred soldiers becauae the Iraqis have surrounded that site w/ locals - no biggie" .Horseshit! During a war, you're there to win. If the enemy uses it's own people as human shields, which Iraq most definatly did, then so be it. The choice is taken out of our hands.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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So Auraptor, are you as outraged about our terrorizing the civilian population of Vietnam as you are about the jihadists terrorizing Iraqis?
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Rap
Some of what you say actually bolsters my argument. I was comparing US-caused deaths in Iraq - a very small area on the globe - with Jihadist deaths worldwide. If I had totaled up all the other US-caused deaths - including Afghanistan for example - the US toll would be much higher. And the US would look much worse.
The other thing I get out of your post is deeply held prejudice. If the US discounts civilian deaths to gain an objective that's somehow different. I don't think the people who died in pain and terror really cared that the US simply rolled over them on their way to something else.
Did you see the recent 60 Minutes broadcast about the calculation that goes into bombing a house ? The chance of getting a 'high value target' is worth the actual death of 30 civilians. So it's not that the US goes so far out of its way to avoid these things - it just calculates a discount rate on civilians depending on target.
The other thing you are mistaken about is that this is somehow making you safer.
But the families, neighbors, tribes and countries don't care if the US targeted civilians on purpose or if it just didn't think they were important. They are people - like you or I - and their grief will cause them to support anyone who takes actions against the US, Jihadist or not. US caused deaths are making you less safe, not more.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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