Aurap..siggy ..it some CFR...
POSTED BY: kaneman
UPDATED: Friday, November 9, 2007 02:01
VIEWED: 13706
PAGE 17 of 21
Quote:Well, just like all Muslims are not jihadists, not all "troops" are terrorists. But if you torture, rape, maim, and kill... in other words, if you DO the same thing... then you ARE equivalent. Cause it doesn't matter how you "feel" about it, or what your "reasons" are, terrorizing people is being a terrorist.
If you're going to try to have a discussion that our troops and the jihadist are in ANY way equivolent, then that's a discussion you'll have by yourself.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Well, just like all Muslims are not jihadists, not all "troops" are terrorists. But if you torture, rape, maim, and kill... in other words, if you DO the same thing... then you ARE equivalent. Cause it doesn't matter how you "feel" about it, or what your "reasons" are, terrorizing people is being a terrorist.
If you're going to try to have a discussion that our troops and the jihadist are in ANY way equivolent, then that's a discussion you'll have by yourself.
But that's not what our soldiers 'do'. So it's a invalid comparison.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:Quote me where I said Islamic Terrorism doesn't exist. You can't because I never said that, I never even alluded to that.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I'm trying to get you to see that islamic terrorism is real. Whether or not it's indicitive of all Islam, is another issue, but at the very least, you must see what's going on first before you can address the problem.
Perhaps you just aren't reading what I write, or you're more interested in winning to engage me honestly, either way there seems to be little point in continuing.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:and Al Qaeda got instruction and financing from the CIA.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Beslan terrorist got instruction and financing from al Qaeda.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:You keep wanting to expand your scope of Jihadism across the globe, through decades, and to all unaffiliated groups.
But that's not what our soldiers 'do'. So it's a invalid comparison.
But when it comes to discussing "Americans" you suddenly narrow your focus to the "good guys in Iraq", discounting what we've done in Vietnam and elsewhere; what we trained, armed, and paid other militaries to do; our rogue soldiers; Abu Ghraib; Blackwater and our other contractors.
YES WE DO Auraptor. We have done, and will continue to do EXACTLY the same thing. Sometimes, as in Vietnam, it's on purpose with "special units". Sometimes it's what we train and pay others to do, as in Guatemala. Sometimes its our contractors. Sometimes we just don't "mind" collateral damage and wind up taking out a lot of innocent folks on the way to someone else. You're a big Jack Bauer fan, right? Kidnapping, torture, murder ... it's all good, right?
What we've been talking about all along is ends and means. If we feel that our ends are "just", does that give license to our means? I used to think that the ends DID justify the means. But over the decades I saw a pattern: every time we took a short cut ... aided, abetted, and performed terrorism... it came back to bite us in the *ss. A lot of people in South and Central America hate us. The people THERE know who backed their dictators with guns, money, training and intel. Years of horrific dictatorships, people "disappeared" by the thousands, torture, murder, genocide.. has led directly to backlashes like Hugo Chavez. Saddam Hussein was our big buddy against the Ayatollah Khomeini. And the AK came into power as a result of a backlash against the Shah of Iran, who WE placed into power. We trained his infamous Savak. The Taliban was an outgrowth of our support for the "muhajadeen".... whose main selling point was that they were anti-Soviet, ignoring the fact that they were repressive, religious nut-jobs INCLUDING ObL. Let's not forget that the Reagan administration played footsie with Islamic Iran, selling them arms and skimming the money for our "contra" war in Nicaragua.
So we backed a bunch of dictators in S&C America, the Taliban, Saddam, the Shah of Iran, supplied arms to Islamic Iran. And each time we made a deal with the devil we wound up dealing with an aftermath which was stronger and more virulent.
I've come to the conclusion that noble and righteous "ends" provide very little wiggle room for our "means", either in a moral or practical sense.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:Quote:and Al Qaeda got instruction and financing from the CIA.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Beslan terrorist got instruction and financing from al Qaeda.
Not only is that a lie, it's also incredibly irrelevant.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:You keep wanting to expand your scope of Jihadism across the globe, through decades, and to all unaffiliated groups.
But that's not what our soldiers 'do'. So it's a invalid comparison.
But when it comes to discussing "Americans" you suddenly narrow your focus to the "good guys in Iraq", discounting what we've done in Vietnam and elsewhere; what we trained, armed, and paid other militaries to do; our rogue soldiers; Abu Ghraib; Blackwater and our other contractors.
I'm not narrowing down the focus to ONLY our guys in Iraq, YOU'RE the one doing that. But instead of focusing on the 99.99% of good guys, you focus on the 0.01% bad guys. Bad guys whom we've charged, tried and when applicable, convicted for doing bad. You show me ONE case where an al Qaeda or Islmic Jihadist has been reprimanded for killing too MANY innocent people, or for being too harsh with a kidnapped victim, etc..... It never happens - EVER. In EVERY case around the globe, the terrorist in question are doing their acts in the name of allah, for PURE Islam, so spare me the attempts to disassociate them from each other. They're ALL doing this for one cause, for ALLAH.
I'm sick of explaining this over and over again, and all you do is refuse to read what I'm posting, undestand what I'm saying. You're just too stubbornly clinging to your politically correct mindset, which trips your logic breaker and keeps you from seeing that there IS good and evil, and instead you try to equivocate the two.
You refuse to see things as they are, and inisist on comparing unlike things as being on par with each other. I'm done w/ this moronic exercise in trying to educate you or to have a rational discussion on this topic. I've said all I can / will say on the matter.
Aloha.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Auraptor, I added more to my post, which x-posted with you so I'm carrying it here for your convenience. Thanks.
What we've been talking about all along is ends and means. If we feel that our ends are "just", does that give license to our means? I used to think that the ends DID justify the means. But over the decades I saw a pattern: every time we took a short cut ... aided, abetted, and performed terrorism... it came back to bite us in the *ss. A lot of people in South and Central America hate us. The people THERE know who backed their dictators with guns, money, training and intel. Years of horrific dictatorships, people "disappeared" by the thousands, torture, murder, genocide.. has led directly to backlashes like Hugo Chavez. Saddam Hussein was our big buddy against the Ayatollah Khomeini. And the AK came into power as a result of a backlash against the Shah of Iran, who WE placed into power. We trained his infamous Savak. The Taliban was an outgrowth of our support for the "muhajadeen".... whose main selling point was that they were anti-Soviet, ignoring the fact that they were repressive, religious nut-jobs INCLUDING ObL. Let's not forget that the Reagan administration played footsie with Islamic Iran, selling them arms and skimming the money for our "contra" war in Nicaragua.
So we backed a bunch of dictators in S&C America, the Taliban, Saddam, the Shah of Iran, supplied arms to Islamic Iran. And each time we made a deal with the devil we wound up dealing with an aftermath which was stronger and more virulent.
I've come to the conclusion that noble and righteous "ends" provide very little wiggle room for our "means", either in a moral or practical sense.
Quote:Auraptor, good and evil is what you DO, not how noble you feel or how righteous your goals. Heck, I've read of people who have sadly killed their children out of "love" to send them to a better place. But killing is killing, torture is torture, and terrorizing a population is terrorism.
You're just too stubbornly clinging to your politically correct mindset, which trips your logic breaker and keeps you from seeing that there IS good and evil, and instead you try to equivocate the two. You refuse to see things as they are, and inisist on comparing unlike things as being on par with each other.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:Saying Chechnyan rebels are Islamic terrorists is irrelevant, stupid and a lie. If aid from Al Qaeda makes acts not inspired by Islam "Islamic Terrorism", then IRA bombings in Britain are "American Terrorism", despite not being inspired by America, because the IRA got much of their funding from American citizens.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Not only is that a lie, it's also incredibly irrelevant.
Islamic Terrorism is terrorism inspired by Islam, not Terrorism committed by Muslims. In the case of the IRA it can be said to be Christian Terrorism, because it's as much about Catholics killing Protestants and vice versa as it is anything else, Chechnyan is not about Muslims killing because of Islam. They're committing terrorism for an entirely different reason.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Auraptor, I added more to my post, which x-posted with you so please scroll up. Thanks.
Much of what you're mixing into the conversation is true, and exposes the catch 22 scenarios that our State Dept ( far more so tban individual Presidents or political parties ) has engaged in for DECADES. Ideas which seem good at the time may ( and do ) come around to bite you later on. As for helping the Islamist in Afghanistan , doing NOTHING seemed even a bigger gamble. Allow the Soviet Union to control the territory, being once step closer to all the mid east Oil and a warm water port. Coming from 30 yrs of the cold war at the time, it's easy to see how stoping the USSR at nearly all cost made sense. Had the Soviet Union won in Afghanistan, who knows where'd they be by now ? They might have helped Iran take out Iraq compeltely, and accomplishing 2 major goals in one step. The cold war continues, the Iron Curtain remains, and the US now has to deal with a much stronger Soviet Union.
We knew who and what these folks were at the time we were helping them, and despite that, the choice to aid them vs the scenario above seems a logical one. And not all of them were so hate filled against us. There was ( and likely still is ) a faction of folks who remember our assistance and would be willing to form some sort of reasonable co-existance. Sadly, those voices have been shouted down. Even so, given what we knew then, it's hard to see us making a different call. That's the problem of having to make tough decissions. Even if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. ( Apologies to the band Rush
) That's as good as I got for this thread. You're welcome.
Aloha
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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