Firefly sci-fi?
POSTED BY: Bourne
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 21:50
VIEWED: 6752
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This was about to go in the "Firefly eps nominated for Hugo..." thread, but I reckon it's OT enough for its own:
I think it was Zoid who opined that Firefly ranks with the best sci-fi, both TV and literary (sorry if I paraphrased it beyond accuracy, Zoid). And while I think we can all agree (excepting the ever-present trolls...) that Firefly was/is one of the best shows on the small screen, I don't agree that it represents the best of sci-fi.
Now, before ya'll bury me in an avalanche of hate-posts, hear me out.
I've also read more sci-fi than I prob'ly should've, good, bad and everything in between. I agree with Zoid's thoughtful, partial definition of SF as being more about technological/social impact than about the "gee-whiz" technical elements themselves. That's why I don't see Firefly as SF, strictly speaking.
True, the series did begin to explore the impact of a Sino-American political (A)lliance on future society and culture. True, the premise of the story world was the discovery, terraforming and colonization of a new galaxy/system after irretrievable ecological erosion of Sol. Pretty hefty stuff.
But other than the superficial sprinkling of mispronounced Mandarin and bilingual signs, Whedon & Co haven't really explored the "Sino" part of the Sino-American Alliance. Not a single major character has been Asian. Occasional face-time doesn't really cut it, either. And despite the suggestive surnames, the "Tam" siblings are clearly Euros. Unless some historical plague decimated the Chinese population, I can't see the reason for the apparent lop-sided-ness. I'm NOT suggesting Joss is a racist, BTW, just saying he could EASILY have mined this rich vein FAR more than he has, especially considering his stated purpose to do so.
Also, as to the new system-colonization-frontier thing, it's a little closer. Still no cigar, though.
To illustrate my misgivings, imagine the story and its major elements WITHOUT the "500 years in the future" setting. Set it instead in 19th century America, on the Frontier. Not hard, really, since JW stated that this was a big part of his inspiration. With mere cosmetic changes, the stories still work as genre fiction. But Western, not SF.
The nail in the coffin, for me, is what else Joss has said about his favorite project: that he wanted to combine the past and the future to make it feel like the present, that he wanted to show that the fundamentals of human behavior/society/etc won't change in the future. I suppose it could be argued that this is, in itself, valid speculation about the impact of technological change worthy of the SF label. Not insightful enough, though (in my opinion) to rank it with the BEST out there. One has only to look to the past to see how much human society has changed up to NOW. And technological change is generally considered to be exponential, never more so than now.
One final thought:
Actually, upon reflection, I did see one intriguing SF idea in the story as yet mostly unexplored: Reavers. After all, they represent a "what-if" scenario without historical precedent. Supposedly, the unique circumstance of "the blackness on the edge of space" has a distinct effect on the minds of men, and has warped the society of the Reavers beyond recognition. THIS is the sort of thing that could get Joss compared to the likes of Asimov, Clarke, et al, if he develops it right. Here's hoping.
Regardless, I'll say again that Firefly is STILL my favorite TV show. And I use the present tense in a stubborn refusal to admit that it's gone for good - merely on hiatus until the movie paves the way for its triumphal return :)
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Bourne:
I did not intend to imply that Firefly ranked among the best in literary sci-fi. I'd put it in the top 100 in that category; but, there's a pretty radical gradient after my top 50 or so.
What I said was that I'd read a lot of sci-fi, and that Firefly is true to the spirit of sci-fi in a way that most film versions -- small or large screen -- of sci-fi fail to capture. Star Trek, which I cited, and Star Wars are really more what a purist would call 'space opera' than true sci-fi.
One of the problems of taking great literary sci-fi and translating it into film, is that most of the societal and individual issues seem to get lost in the translation. For example, I also stood on line at the theatre for "Dune"; but, like many who had anticipated that release, was disappointed with the rendition Lynch turned out. Likewise, with David Brin's excellent novel, "The Postman", which came out almost unrecognizable (if still enjoyable) in Costner's vision.
As such -- along with "The Day the Earth Stood Still", "2001" and "Forbidden Planet" (actually, a spacey Shakespeare's "Tempest") -- Firefly ranks as arguably the best filmic sci-fi ever created, to the sci-fi purist. Or at least to this sci-fi purist.
Now if we could just get a character-development and dialogue genius (hint, hint) to tackle Greg Bear's "Queen of Angels" and "Slant"... or James Cameron to tackle Benford's Galactic Centre series, ala "Terminator Meets Aliens"...
And, oops, I almost forgot: "Centennial Man". Robin Williams was the closest thing to Asimov's R. Daneel Olivaw I could imagine on film. Lot's of soul searching about the true meaning of "being".
Respectfully,
zoid
_________________________________________________
"River didn't fix faith. Faith fixed River."
- Senator Richard 'Book' Wilkins, Independent Congress
author of A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence
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First, my apologies if my post offended. I was only hoping for an interesting discussion of the genre, and how FF does - and how it could - fit into it. Applying the SF category loosely (as the vast majority of people do), I couldn't agree with you more. I've never been drawn in by a SF show more thoroughly than I was by FF.
But that's not because it's good SF. It's because it's superior visual storytelling, independent of genre. If Joss had decided to make FF a straight-up Western series (assuming Fox would've gone for it), I'm sure I would've been hooked just as hopelessly. In fact, when I first saw it, I wondered idly if Joss had contributed to the script for the movie "Silverado", years ago. Discarded the notion only when I realized he's prob'ly too young. But if you've ever seen the movie, you'd understand - some of the quirky humor, the anti-hero (well played by Kevin Kline), the over-all feel of the movie...I remember seeing it as a kid, wishing they'd turn it into a series. Now, almost 20 years later: Firefly! In all the ways that count, I feel like I got my wish.
And I don't think I'm too far off the mark: I'd bet JW saw "Silverado", and just filed it away along with "Stagecoach" and all the rest for future reference...
And to get out from under Westerns, remember what Tim Minear said about "Out of Gas"? It started life as a "submarine" story, and works quite well as such, being set on a spaceship notwithstanding. Jane Espenson described "Shindig" as her chance to write a Jane Austin story. And so on. From what I've gleaned from the commentaries and elsewhere is that this is par for the course for Whedon & Co. They're writing character-driven stories and merely using the convenient vehicle of spaceship SF to tell them. They poke fun at the genre within the stories ("Dear, we live on a spaceship"). And they jettison the most time-honored of tropisms: "no bumpy foreheads or ambassadors".
Speaking of Babylon 5...JMS's magnum opus does qualify as above-average SF, or what little I saw of it, anyway (somewhere short of the 1st 5 seasons). And that's because they were trying to tell an honest-to-goodness SF story (human contact with aliens, war, consequences....).
And it wasn't nearly as watchable, in my opinion, as Firefly.
BTW, I fell asleep during Dune. And my WIFE is the one who falls asleep during movies, not me :)
Patrick Stewart did his best with his role, but he was a candle in the wind...heck, they couldn't make it interesting when they remade it as a mini-series a few years ago.
But I digress.
You mentioned "Verboten Planet", how it was "The Tempest" in a spacesuit. My point exactly. Take the spacesuit off and it's just Billy Shakespeare again, done VERY BADLY. Though priceless for a peek at an early, serious(?!?!) Leslie Nielsen role.
Believe me, I dislike genre labels more than I like them, because they're overused by publishing and production companies (not to mention critics) to ghetto-ize some damn fine storytellers, in much the same way truly horrible stories are branded "literature", and suddenly they're art.
Be that as it may, I think Whedon & Co are in a good position to tell some damn fine SF stories, given the chance. And by not being "true" SF, they've got the elbow room to tell any kind of story they've a notion to, irrespective of genre.
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Bourne:
I found nothing in either of your posts even remotely offensive. Disagreement -- especially one as slight as ours appears to be -- is not an offense, so none has been taken on my part.
I trust none has been taken on yours, because I must now ask you a straightforward question. I have given some specific examples of what I consider to be "what's the effect of technology on Man and society" science fiction, in both literature and film.
What then are your paragons of sci-fi virtue? I, too, enjoy discussing the topic; but I've kinda got to know a little bit more of what you'd consider sci-fi to be in order to engage.
To recap: I like everything by the "3 B's of Hard Sci-Fi" (as I call them): David Brin, Greg Bear and Greg Benford. I especially like Brin's first Uplift trilogy, Benford's Galactic Centre series, and the aforementioned Bear's Queen of Angels and Slant (the latter being a sequel of the former). In addition, Bear's currently running Darwin's Radio and Darwin's Children are both scientifically and socially thought-provoking. The 3 B's are laureled scientific researchers as well as talented storytellers, and are therefore at the pinnacle of the 'hard sci-fi' genre, to my thinking. And since we're posting this on the Internet, I'd be remiss if I did not mention the razor-sharp William Gibson, the inventor of cyberpunk.
We've already discussed my general lack of enthusiasm with filmed sci-fi other than Firefly -- although, I still liked "Forbidden Planet" for it's 'monsters of the id' commentary on Man (okay, and for Anne Francis, who was my first crush as "Honey West" when I was an 8-year old kid).
So, what are your favorite examples of sci-fi literature and movies?
Respectfully,
zoid
_________________________________________________
"River didn't fix faith. Faith fixed River."
- Senator Richard 'Book' Wilkins, Independent Congress
author of A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence
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A few things...
First, there were some clearly Asian people in the marketplace on Persephone(?), the planet that the series should have begun on in the pilot 'Serenity'.
Second, there is only so much that you can introduce in a series that only runs for less then one season. For all we know Whedon and Co. may have had some serious plans to introduce some very interesting strong good and bad Asian characters. The same goes for the Reavers. There simply wasn't time.
Third, the series takes place 500 years in the future, the 'bad pronounciation' of those Mandarin words really could have been nothing more then the way those words are pronounced, regardless of who you are in that future. Seriously, how many people in real life say 'Shiny' to denote something as 'cool' or 'good' or 'awesome'? (When I say in Real Life, I am of course referring to non-Browncoats...)
Granted, if the series was in it's 3rd 4th or even 5th year and they never introduced a single Asian character of some importance, yeah I could give you some props.
Firefly came out at the wrong time, with the wrong network. There isn't a single real 'Western' television series that's strong in the market right now. If it was released back in the heydey of 'The Young Riders' it probably would have done a little better.
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Maybe we can just make a new genre for Firefly. All exceptional art defies classification in some way.
SergeantX
"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith
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personally I find 'Firefly' to be a superb example of Sci-fi, more so (not less) because of it's subtlty.
I have always felt that people were blinded by the cowboy aspects so that they take for granted the importance of the space/sci-fi aspects.
Joss explained it best in his commentary to 'Objects in Space' his whole vision is centered around the huge infinite darkness of space, and the small fragile lives who are moving through space in total isolation except for the bonds they form with each other. It is true that that feeling was touched on in Silverado and/or Stagecoach because of the harsh and vast enviornment of the deserts & plains of the old American West.... But obviously actually being out in space increases the feeling and the risks!
Also the ship itself is one of the main characters, the size shape and layout of the ship is of great importance to Joss and the story telling.
He has incorporated the sci-fi aspects deeply into the story, so they don't constantly jump out and hit you over the head with 'special effects', but I contend it would not be the same story if it was not set 500 years into the future. (JMPO naturally)
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Quote:
Originally posted by CaptainCerentz:
First, there were some clearly Asian people in the marketplace on Persephone(?), the planet that the series should have begun on in the pilot 'Serenity'.
Yes, there have been a few Asian faces, but they are just in the background. I think what Bourne was trying to get at with this point is that in order for the 500 years in the future universe to be considered Sino-Anglan, there'd have to be many more Asians than just pure extras. If China really was one of only two major superpowers left in the 'verse, where are all the Chinese Alliance officers? Where are all the Chinese bad guys that ought to also be running around out there? Why weren't there Chinese on the Browncoat side of things? There really isn't much to do at all with China in the Firefly 'verse, besides a few fashions and swear words.
If China was really one of two superpowers to expand from Earth, there should be many more Chinese mixed in with the populations we do see. However, we see mainly Euros and hardly any Chinese. Plus why wasn't there a main character that was clearly of Asian descent?
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Not necesarily... For all we know The Alliance could be ruled by a central party of Chinese descendents. The reason we haven't seen any Alliance officers that are of Chinese descent could be simply because our heroes have spent all of their time, for the most part, out on the fringe and that one 'core-world' they visited could also be one of the border core-worlds that is only called a core-world due to its location more then anything else.
If The Alliance has a Chinese Descendent ruling class, perhaps there is some Chinese 'Superiority' going on and they send non-Chinese out to the fringe to die for the machine that The Alliance is.
Why have we not seen any Chinese Descendents as Browncoats? Probably for a few reasons, perhaps the Chinese Descendents were content with joining in and or being part of The Alliance. Perhaps, they simply didn't have a long enough run to get into that aspect of the story line...
While we are at it, where are all the Latino characters? If this is a future where the Chinese and the America's are the the two main superpowers that left 'The Earth That Was' where are all the Latinos? I don't recall seeing any Latinos anywhere, not a one. They are the largest growing minority group in the US.
We really could spend all day, all week, all month, years in fact going back and forth about why Whedon left out all sorts of people... Where are the physically handicapped? Where are the really aged people? Where are the Native Americans? Where are people from India/Pakistan? Where are all the Arabs? Why aren't people clearly of African (Not African-American) descent represented? What about the Eskimo/Inuit? For that matter, where's Budhism, Daoism, Hinduism, Judiasm, Islam and all the other world religions?
To please everyone the crew of the Serenity would have to have around 40 members. That way they could cover each and every aspect of all cultures and human conditions in order to make sure that nobody could get their PC world view hurt... That wouldn't happen, you know why?
Because it's a television show, a show made by an American through an American Production House, shown originally on American Television, originally developed for an American audience, with an actual budget of all things. Of course it will have an American slant, of course there will be more then a few things 'missing' from the show. In time, some of those things would have been covered.
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CaptainCerentz wrote:
Quote:
While we are at it, where are all the Latino characters? If this is a future where the Chinese and the America's are the the two main superpowers that left 'The Earth That Was' where are all the Latinos? I don't recall seeing any Latinos anywhere, not a one. They are the largest growing minority group in the US.
We really could spend all day, all week, all month, years in fact going back and forth about why Whedon left out all sorts of people... Where are the physically handicapped? Where are the really aged people? Where are the Native Americans? Where are people from India/Pakistan? Where are all the Arabs? Why aren't people clearly of African (Not African-American) descent represented? What about the Eskimo/Inuit? For that matter, where's Budhism, Daoism, Hinduism, Judiasm, Islam and all the other world religions?
To please everyone the crew of the Serenity would have to have around 40 members. That way they could cover each and every aspect of all cultures and human conditions in order to make sure that nobody could get their PC world view hurt... That wouldn't happen, you know why?
Because it's a television show, a show made by an American through an American Production House, shown originally on American Television, originally developed for an American audience, with an actual budget of all things. Of course it will have an American slant, of course there will be more then a few things 'missing' from the show. In time, some of those things would have been covered.
I agree w/ CaptainCerentz to a point.
Sure, in the episodes that did manage to get aired, and the ones we got w/ the DVD set, there are no major characters of Chinese descent. I found it a little odd, but quite honestly I was not overly concerned about it.
Granted, the Alliance is supposed to be made up of the last two super powers from Earth that was, but to what extent do the Chinese figure into the equation on the rim where the story takes part? How many Chinese left the Core worlds for the frontier if any? Surely there must have been some that left the Core for the freedom of the frontier.
I think what we have to remember is that the story of Firefly was cut short. Had it run its course I think we would have seen more Chinese influences, Chinese characters (both good & bad), and perhaps learned more of the Chinese presence in the Alliance and the government.
I think given a chance, if the movie is successful and a new series is born, we may get a chance to answer the questions about the Chinese side of the Alliance and the contributions of the Chinese in settling the frontier.
"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."
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