Firefly sci-fi?
POSTED BY: Bourne
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 21:50
VIEWED: 6752
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Great thread folks. Interesting comments. It's true that Science Fiction is a genre classification Firefly doesn't actually fit into since there is no real 'science' in the fiction. That is, Sci-Fi is usually defined as a story where the science is the major story engine. War of the Worlds is about future weapons, etc. Firefly is about a disillusioned soldier building a life outside the grip of the 'normal' social order. Now, if Mal had used a time machine or a giant spaceship raygun to change things... then that would be Sci-Fi by definition.
Why aren't there more chinese on the show? Racism (even the mild bourgeois racism of Californian Lefties) is an inherent ingredient in every U.S. TV show. I've gotten used to it.
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Hey, 'coats:
I thought about the Sino-American influences as well. It may be somewhat inflammatory, but I think Jewel Staite and Summer Glau have a hint of an epicanthic fold to their eyes (especially Jewel). This may or may not have been a goal when making casting decisions.
Perhaps 500 years of intermarriage (the Tam name) between Orientals and Occidentals has rendered a dominant, homogenized phenotype...
I know a discussion of this nature is generally considered tabu, and with good reason, but I beg your indulgence. When interracial couples produce offspring, the children exhibit the genetic heritage of both parents. After 500 years of interracial marriages -- to solidify power, similar to Saxon-Norman arrangements? -- might not the two races have merged into one?
One additional thought. Many of Firefly's staunchest fans have occasionally stated, "It's not really a sci-fi series, it's a Western", similar to Bourne's post that began this thread. You've gotta admit 'Sci-fi Western' was a pretty big stretch for all of us. I've come to grips with it, and consider the frontiersy elements both good sci-fi and highly original, as well as entertaining.
While I too believe we'd have gotten around to seeing planets run by genetically Asian characters, how would JW/ME have sold anyone on a predominantly Chinese Western? If the tale had been about 2 loosely-disguised Confederate War vets of Chinese heritage, and 50% of their passengers, crew and customers were likewise Sino-Asian, how many shows would they have gotten aired before Fox pulled the plug?
How many of us would have been on this message board talking about it? 'Sci-fi Western' is a tough sell; 'Chinese Sci-fi Western' sounds like someone's idea of a hoax...
Respectfully,
zoid
_________________________________________________
"River didn't fix faith. Faith fixed River."
- Senator Richard 'Book' Wilkins, Independent Congress
author of A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence
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Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Hey, 'coats:
I thought about the Sino-American influences as well. It may be somewhat inflammatory, but I think Jewel Staite and Summer Glau have a hint of an epicanthic fold to their eyes (especially Jewel). This may or may not have been a goal when making casting decisions.
This is a possibility I had not considered, but I do not think it likely.
Quote:
Perhaps 500 years of intermarriage (the Tam name) between Orientals and Occidentals has rendered a dominant, homogenized phenotype...
I know a discussion of this nature is generally considered tabu, and with good reason, but I beg your indulgence. When interracial couples produce offspring, the children exhibit the genetic heritage of both parents. After 500 years of interracial marriages -- to solidify power, similar to Saxon-Norman arrangements? -- might not the two races have merged into one?
Very good point.
It is very possible that the Chinese and Americans that went out to the stars & left Earth behind have intermarried and mingled over the course of 500 years to the point there are few actual direct descendants from either side. I am sure there would be some that would be some predominately Chinese settlements left, but perhaps they have maintained that pure lineage through remaining remote and isolated from the rest of the Alliance.
Quote:
One additional thought. Many of Firefly's staunchest fans have occasionally stated, "It's not really a sci-fi series, it's a Western", similar to Bourne's post that began this thread. You've gotta admit 'Sci-fi Western' was a pretty big stretch for all of us. I've come to grips with it, and consider the frontiersy elements both good sci-fi and highly original, as well as entertaining.
I agree, trying to make someone understand the concept of a sci fi/western has been one of the stumbling blocks for me when I introduce the show to new people. I have taken to describing Firefly as a futuristic western. That seems to be easier for people to understand.
Quote:
While I too believe we'd have gotten around to seeing planets run by genetically Asian characters, how would JW/ME have sold anyone on a predominantly Chinese Western? If the tale had been about 2 loosely-disguised Confederate War vets of Chinese heritage, and 50% of their passengers, crew and customers were likewise Sino-Asian, how many shows would they have gotten aired before Fox pulled the plug?
How many of us would have been on this message board talking about it? 'Sci-fi Western' is a tough sell; 'Chinese Sci-fi Western' sounds like someone's idea of a hoax...
Great points Zoid. I think Hollywood, and the American viewing public in general may not have gravitated to a show w/ a predominately Asian cast and a premise heavy w/ Chinese influence.
"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."
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I am a huge fan of SF literature, in fact I would say at least 95% of the fiction I read is SF, and that has been the case for nearly 40 years.
Firefly is SF by my definition, even though it is also a western, and Joss' ideas along this line make perfect sense. I have no idea if he has read any Heinlein, but I would guess he has, and the closest example of this type of story in RAH's universe is the "Tale of the Adopted Daughter" within his novel Time Enough For Love.
Any frontier settlement, whether it is in the old west of the U.S. or on another planet, would not have the infrastructure that would support a high technology, thus we see the terraformed planets and moons in Firefly relying on horse and cattle power, as well as simple machinery that would be easy to maintain. Only after many years of a viable community would they have anything of enough value to trade for more advanced technologies.
As for why we did not see more Chinese and other ethnicities represented, I think there are many factors, most of which have already been mentioned. First, we more than likely would have seen more had the series lasted longer. Second, many Chinese might be of the ruling classes and thus inhabit the core worlds we haven't seen yet. Third, intermarriage has produced a more homogenous look.
Someone mentioned the lack of Latinos, but we have Gina Torres, whose ancestry is Cuban, and Morena is Brazilian/Italian, but she even looked Indian (Asian Indian, not American) in The Train Job scene where she came to rescue Mal and Zoe. We saw quite a few incidental characters of different ethnic backgrounds, from Badger's henchman who appeared Jamaican, to one of Nandi's girls who was definitely Oriental.
But probably the main reason behind the apparent lack of those ethnicities has also been mentioned. It was an American show designed for American audiences.
wo men ren ran zai fei xing.
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I think of Firefly as being true to the Science Fiction genre. There are so many styles of SF that you can't pigeon-hole it into one category... nor do certain categories of SF means that all SF is made up of those types.
Firefly is not about making scientific discoveries. It's not about meeting aliens for the first time. It's not about time travel. There a whole list of SF trappings that it is not.
Firefly is about colonizing other planets. It's about psychic abilities (River). It's about traveling among different worlds and societies. It's all kinds of things similar to what can be found in many SF stories. The main aspect is "What if..." Joss is basically saying "What if the future is like this? Here are some stories about it." That is truly Science Fiction.
And among all the types of SF out there, the characters in a story is really what the stories are about, and Firefly has that in spades.
It doesn't matter where the ideas came from, be it Shakespeare or Jane Austen, or Brin... many of the best stories borrow plots from other sources.
In Asimov's future of robots, empires and Foundation... there are no aliens.
So now Firefly has some nominations for Hugo awards... I think that for dramatic presentation it's not a question of to what degree it is Sci-fi, and for Hugos it doesn't have to be SF, but whether or not it has a great story, great characters, great visuals.
Jaymes
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I disagree with you as to what good SciFi is. Under your definition Larry Niven's 'Ring World' and even some of Robert Jordan or Robert A. Heinlein works would not be considered good SciFi and yet I hear no one claiming that these are not true or good.
Sometimes setting is the only SciFi element in a SciFi story. This is done on purpose to make the audience feel like they know where they are, to lull people into a sense of familiarity only to twist these senses and hit them with a one off on occasion.
But Firefly has more than setting as a SciFi element. The nasty big brother alliance doing SciFi conspiracy things on a whole series level is the same plot element that was the stuff of many of the X-files episodes.
Those that poopoo Firefly for not being SciFi either have an agenda against the show or are
elitist snobs trying to usurp the whole SciFi genera as their own narrow turf.
So no, I don't believe that Firefly is not good SciFi.
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As a person who is half-japanese... even I do not get immediate recognition as being part Asian... I have 2 daughters... one is blue-eyed, dirty-blonde hair... doesn't look very asian. The other has brown-eyes, black hair, and eyes that look more asian than mine. And so even at 1/4 japanese I have 2 very different looking daughters.
How mixed could the 'verse be in 500 years... probably not too much. I think certain asian cultures will tend to stay more homogeneous than allow an abundance of mixing... also they may tend to stay seperate from other cultures as well, which is why we don't see too many asians in the Firefly verse... If they do get to visit Sihnon or Jiangyin, then we should see plenty.
I also think the Alliance won the war because of manpower... they had more fodder for the browncoat cannons.
Jaymes
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After reading this thread I thought I would stick in my two cents...
A friend and I were discussing FF this past weekend and the subject of Reavers came up.
What if the Asians/Chinese were the Reavers? None have been shown in any of the episodes, most of the swearing/derogatory language is in Chinese and very few Asians have been shown in any of the episodes.
By saying this, if I have offended anyone, I am sorry. I am not trying to. It was just a random thought.
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You know, maybe a better title for this thread would be "Define Science Fiction." Ask 10 people that question, you'll get 10 different answers, all 10 of them will be wrong, and all 10 will be right. 
Now, some people use the term "hard sci-fi," when others use that same definition for all science fiction. There is no set definition.
Personally, I read a book by David Gerrold*, and I like and follow his definition. He says science fiction is defined by its level of "bolognium." Each piece of bolognium is the one fantastic element in the story that cannot be scientifically explained.
A writer can have one piece of bolognium with no problem. Two pieces, and he better be an excellent writer. Three pieces, and he better be a master of the craft. Four pieces, and it's fantasy not science fiction, no matter how far in the future you go.
But when The Lord of The Rings is up for a Hugo, I think it's pretty obvious it's not a "science fiction" award any more.
And, no, I purposefully didn't say whether I believe Firefly is sci-fi or not. It doesn't matter to me. Categorizing doesn't make something more enjoyable to me. Firefly is Firefly, the best damn show I've seen.
*David Gerrold wrote "The Trouble with Tribbles" episode for Star Trek. As a writer for the show, he says they had no illusion of writing "science fiction."
"Wacky fun..."
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Great thread folks. Interesting comments. It's true that Science Fiction is a genre classification Firefly doesn't actually fit into since there is no real 'science' in the fiction. Now, if Mal had used a time machine or a giant spaceship raygun to change things... then that would be Sci-Fi by definition.
Not sure I'd agree with your definition of Science Fiction - Firefly's science is there, but its behind the fiction, as it should be in all good SF (show how it works, not tell us - TNG technobabble style). True, it fits more comfortably in Ellison's preferred definition of "speculative fiction" rather than the hard SF of the 3 Bs (love that term so I'm stealing it).
"I threw up on your bed"
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