Simon in a father role?
POSTED BY: MerryK
UPDATED: Monday, October 15, 2007 16:07
VIEWED: 8723
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Simon last saw River as that small, shy but brilliant girl of fourteen (R.Tam session).
She's seventeen, going on eighteen by the BDM. There is a huge difference between those ages even without the whole other, erm, issue.
quote from Wytchcroft - and of course he is (male tam again) ignoring the reality of who River might actually BE. Just as Mal is no longer the boy from Serenity Valley -- River is no longer the pre-academy brat... she must become someone new, someone who can heal the schism between girl and weapon. Simon's IDEALISATION of River may actually be a hindrance to this - and his role may again therefore become that of the caring but stultifying father.
I'm with you on this. It's exactly how I see it. I think Simon puts people in boxes (metaphorically, but see what I did there?...) and adjusting to the fact that River is growing up would definitely be difficult for him. Particularly if she does gain a measure of control and start to want her own life. There is nothing more heart-breaking than unwanted sacrifice.
(Inara) “Simon...I have a proposition for you both.” She takes a breath. “The Guild can offer her a home here.”
The Simon Tam of a year ago would have swept his sister into such a sanctuary without a second thought. Now, he bites his lip, considers...
It doesn’t appal him. It was even a choice his parents had once considered for River, before they found out just how smart she really was. Inara’s soft voice continues on...
She could live within these walls. She would have people around her who did not spend all their time plotting ways to rob and kill. She would have peace and stillness, and time to dance.
River is regaining a certain clarity - she will never be well, but she does more than function. Maybe time has accustomed them to her oblique style of speech, its run of allegory and metaphor. Maybe he hopes too much. But here, perhaps she could heal. There is peace and order, a sense of tranquillity. Not things in great supply on board Serenity. She seems to have become accustomed to such a haphazard existence, but it’s not how she should have to live, running and hiding, and living hand to mouth.
This planet has a hospital. Newly-founded and seeking knowledgeable staff.
He could offer Kaylee a proper home. It’s a thought he keeps pushing to the back of his mind, but one that persists, in the quiet watches of the night.
But River's response...
(River) “Have a home, have a family. Don’t want to leave them lost in the woods - need a navigator.” She sighs, lets her hair fall forward. Peers up at him. “Know you want dirt beneath your feet, not under your fingernails. But I am not a broken doll - can’t keep me in the toybox until someone wants to play. I am...useful on Serenity. Not decorative. Need me to fly them through the storms.”
Simon wants to turn back to the order he has known; he is a very good surgeon, a skilled doctor. And he would do far more good for people in a hospital.
But River has found a place she wants to be, and it isn't planet-bound and regulated.
Their conflict will come from the fact that she no longer needs or wants his care and protection the whole time. And maybe that does go back to the Tams' scene - exactly who is lost without who?
Just my take on it.
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Good points, both of you. I'm not sure if Joss was trying to do it or not, but I always saw that slightly stifling side of Simon. It's like in the movie Finding Nemo, where the dad is so protective of his son because he feels like he's failed him once already, and so will do anything now to keep him safe, even if it means holding on too tightly to him. And I think that's part of the difference between Simon and Gabriel—Gabriel would have stifled River (not entirely consciously, perhaps) because she didn't fit the perfect child mold. Simon probably will stifle post-BDM River because he doesn't want her hurt again. Although in the beginning, she probably needed that intense amount of protection—Simon loses track of her for two seconds in Safe to talk to Kaylee, and River disappears and could easily have been captured. No wonder he doesn't want to involve himself with Kaylee!
I've been examining this concept in my stories, which right now are very early on in Firefly, though I do have a couple post-BDM ideas. Simon makes choices for River, sometimes because he has to, because she's broken and unstable, but also because he is just soooooo protective of her. It's admirable, but it could (and will, post-BDM, I believe) be problematic. I don't like stories that are River-centric where Simon is overprotective to a commanding and uncaring extent, but I also don't like stories where Simon is portrayed as the perfect man/husband/brother, so I've been trying to find the "truth" or at least the middle ground in my own stories. Definitely both the idealization and the overprotection (which is there because Simon sees himself partly as River's father, I think) will feature.
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"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown
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Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
Simon last saw River as that small, shy but brilliant girl of fourteen (R.Tam session).
She's seventeen, going on eighteen by the BDM. There is a huge difference between those ages even without the whole other, erm, issue.
Well, the difference is usually due to a maturation process that takes place. Which explains why so many kids in those age ranges have a widely differing level of maturity.
After all, being that 14-year-old girl is also River's last memory of being with Simon, so it's just as natural for her to fall back into that role as it is for Simon, no matter what trauma she went through.
And I think that it's just as likely, if not more so, that what was done to her stunted her maturation rather than accelerated or kept it at an equal to normal pace.
To put a different spin on it, River may very well need Simon to see the girl she used to be, just as she needs, say, Mal to see what she is, and Jayne to see the threat she represents and Kaylee to see the "normal girl" in her.
They all acknowledge different parts of her, which is probably why the ship is so much home to her.
Not to mention, Simon IS her doctor and he did make her better through his planning in "Ariel". Her care is in his hands in more ways than one.
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Oh, forgot to mention your comment about Simon's "keynote" speech (I like that term), Wytchcroft. I would say that awe comes into Simon's feelings for River, but in this speech there seems to be more fondness, especially when he rambles on about her being a brat about her abilities. It's that sibling relationship that keeps River from being a Mary-Sue—just like any real fourteen year old would be with genius powers, she's a bratty little sister about it, though Simon loves her anyway. It's hard to be awed with someone who teases you.
--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown
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Interesting thread. Not something I think about a lot, so I only have a few little bitties to add.
I can see that when Simon first found out how bad off River was, he might have had to reconsider his role in her life. I'm oddly not sure I like Simon consciously trying to define it like this. I see him more as doing what seems obvious to him - take care of her, do whatever she needs. Like it's a blind, unquestioning devotion, and needs no title. (But then, I tend to want characters less self-aware and less self-assessing than most fics make them, so this could just be me...)
Anyway, Simon's thrown his life away already. Finding out that River needs so much help isn't exactly interfering with all the other plans he has for his life. I don't see him as thinking about himself much at that point, just moving ahead as safely as he can.
Other thing - I think the added burdens of River's condition fall on his doctor personna, not father. He sure might get freaked over the "father" role if River started wanting to date, or get the verse-y equivalent of a driver's license, or need money for clothes. Those are common father things. Saying goodnight with a kiss and syringe full of psychiatric meds is something else.
Yeah, I guess I'd see his dilemma as being between his personal and professional roles in River's life, not between brother and father.
Oh geez. So I guess I just got long-winded as usual and totally disagreed. Sorry! What you have is certainly interesting and thought provoking, and don't be changing anything on my account! 
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Now see, I don’t think it’s possible for Simon not to notice that his relationship to River has changed. When he last saw her, if we judge from the R. Tam Sessions and the Safe flashbacks, she was in school and dance, and had a fond playful relationship him (Regan seems to think that they are always playing intellectual games with each other). Perhaps when she was younger he saw himself as her protector, but until he finds out that she’s in trouble, she’s pretty much independent of him. Then his role becomes the rescuer for a while, but still, I don’t think there’s a person alive who was so clueless that they would not notice and think on (for a second at least) the fact that their playmate is now the person that they have to be protector, psychologist, and babysitter (in a word, parent) to. You make a good point about Simon possibly seeing her as a patient, but considering that his expertise as a doctor was surgery, I don’t think it would entirely cover the changes. I think he’d have to notice, at some point. Now, I can see it being at a much later time, perhaps after the scene in Our Mrs. Reynolds, or Objects in Space even, but I don’t think you could avoid it.
Especially since I think that Simon is exactly the sort of character who does actually think about himself. He is so analytical and cautious in how he acts, even emotionally, that I cannot see him not being introspective. We know that he does think somewhat about himself, as shown by his self-assessments in Jaynestown and Objects in Space, and I think that he probably does it a lot more. He seems to think about everything, even if he’s not really good at thinking about most of it. Most people (and characters) would fall into a relationship with Kaylee and then realize that it conflicts with their relationship with River. Simon, though, seems to judge the situation intellectually before emotions become involved, and decide not to get involved. It doesn’t exactly work—he’s not a robot, or particularly good at thinking about relationships—but I think that from what we see, he had to have thought a little about it.
I don't agree with the idea that Simon knew he was leaving behind forever his old life to take care of River. You could make a case otherwise, since we don't really know, but I don't think there's more evidence that didn't know how badly River was off. I don't see how he could have the slightest idea until he came to the Academy...the only thing he knows is that she's being hurt, that she's cogent enough to write in code, and that she's being trained and mentally altered. Until he got her out, it's most likely that he thought he could be a Rim doctor of some sorts to support them both.
I do think that his plans probably changed so quickly that he didn't much think about it, and his decision to truly give up everything to take care of River probably wasn't really a decision at all, but I do think it was a change in plans.
--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown
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May I suggest an essay by Shanna Swendson from "Serenity Found" (A Tale of Two Heroes)? She makes a compelling argument that Simon and Mal are "parallel heroes" in the story context. She sites analogies from the series, i.e., Simon and Mal both bring a box with unknown contents on Serenity, in the pilot.
On the surface, both characters are willing to sacrifice and endure great hardships, not unlike a parent, but it is really their innate sense of Romantic Heroism that has Simon rescuing River and Mal continuing to let them stay on board. She calls it Simon's mission.
Mal subconsiously recognizes Simon's "mission" in the Maidenhead and brings them both back on board that causes friction and misunderstanding from the remaining crew. Mal needs Simon's mission in order to regain his lost heroism that was forsaken at Serenity Valley.
By the end of the movie, River has started to become autonomous and empowered, "my turn" and "that's the plan". She doesn't need either one of them to rescue her anymore. Simon will continue to protect her more vulnerable exploits, her sexuality, and Mal will protect her as crew, much like he does Kaylee.
The last sequence of the movie illustrates this best by showing Kaylee and Simon restocking supplies in the galley, at the same time Mal and Inara are conversing in the corridor. Heroism is apparent and rebalanced. All are able to move forward. And, what is River doing? She is in the cockpit starting the take off sequence for flight, again showing her autonomy through initiation.
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Actually, I was just about to post an analysis of Simon and Mal, who I see as being almost exactly alike. 
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get a copy of Serenity Found yet, but that sounds really interesting. I agree, Simon often sees things in a classically romantic sense, "missions" and all. But I don't think he always thinks like that...there have to be pragmatic moments.
--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown
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Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
I don't agree with the idea that Simon knew he was leaving behind forever his old life to take care of River... I don't see how he could have the slightest idea until he came to the Academy...
Hmm. When Simon enters the Academy, he's just spent all the money he has, given it to an underground organization that he likely met through those Blackout zones. He knows his father won't help him, and he knows the Alliance is going to be after him for breaking into a secure facility. He may also suspect that he has knowledge that the Alliance isn't wanting him to share - that the Academy experiments on children. Even if River popped out of that box with a smile and a tap dance, how could Simon possibly be entertaining thoughts of going back to his old life? He's got to know better than that.
That's the root of his heroism, I think. He gave up everything for her, based on those letters. Before he even saw that she was messed up.
Quote:I agree. But I don't think seeing River changed his plans - I think Mal's offer did.
Until he got her out, it's most likely that he thought he could be a Rim doctor of some sorts to support them both.
Simon certainly must have been shocked at how bad off River was, and this changed his understanding of his situation. But I think it came with a realization that his doctoring skills were about to become much broader, since he would have to be her care-taker. I just don't think he'd be considering himself as her father at that point. He might even feel further from his role as older brother (which certainly has a little bit of father figure in it) because she is no longer the little sister he remembers.
Damn. Must have been hard on him! Simon was surviving moment to moment. For all that he acted calm he had to be pretty damned freaked out inside, and all his mental resources were focused on survival and escape. I don't think he was going to rationally reason out his whole future at that point. At some time in the future, certainly. Later in the series or BDM, I can totally see the scene you wrote happening. (Again, just my .02. I'm sure more people disagree than agree with me LOL!)
As for the introspection... this really is a style thing and I've gone on enough already, so I'm going to post about this on the style thread.
Great thread here! I certainly hadn't thought about this, and though we may disagree it's damned interesting to discuss!
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Yeah, disagreement is just fine. I agree with you that introspection is often a flaw in styling, but I think that when it comes to thinker characters it is the most appropriate. How else do we understand Simon except by what he thinks?
Just as a clarification, I did not say that Simon thought he could go back to his old life...that would be clearly impossible, as you said. However, I don't think he gave up the idea of making his living by doctoring. I see no reason why he should have given up that, until he saw how badly off River was.
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"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown
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