Mal's word no good?
POSTED BY: jewelstaitefan
UPDATED: Sunday, October 14, 2007 03:26
VIEWED: 18720
PAGE 5 of 8
Also some very good points. One does what one can when faced with adversity. THat;s waht it boils down to.
Another analogy, this time portrayed by fictioanl characters. Star Trek, when two equally powerful teams fight for supremacy and one, in this case our heroic character, the judge of the game asked the difference between good and evil.
The 'evil' side fought for power and wealth. The 'good' side fought for the lives of their crew. It was one of the quintessential episodes, simplistic but you gotta say that last line explains all.
Mal's character fights for the lives of his crew by any means available. Loyalty is a high priority. Higher than money (War Stories), higher than personal desires (Inara). Is there a more moral tone that can be struck?
That is what Firefly and Whedon offers - honor, morality and loyalty. That is Mal's character.
J fan: IF you were personally put in the position of choosing to find Simon to tend to a critically injured Book or go to the Alliance begging for help, what would your choice be? That is the question Whedon poses in Safe, that is what attracts us to the characters. What would you do?
"I don't disagree on any particular point."
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Hi
Just a few thoughts on this issue.
First the episode is called "Safe" thats important so keep it in mind! We are treated to a load of info regarding Simon & Rivers background. Their family are clearly rich and probaly influential so Simon and river should be safe with them. But because of the lack of moral courage of his parents we learn that they abandon both Simon and River. This is a recurring theme in Firefly (lack of moral courage that is)
Then later after The Tams are kidnapped the nurse tells Simon that he can make a home with them, when he objects she says "If not here then where?" at which point we are all shouting SERENITY!
Then Mal comes back and recues them. Why?
"Your on my crew. Why are we still talking about this?"
The point of theis entire episode is that simon and River are "safe" on a broken down spaceship with a crew of petty (petty?) thieves being pursued by the alliance various law enforcement agencies and several criminal elements. Why? Watch Our MRs Reynolds and OOG among others you will find that the crew do not desert each oyher.
Mal was always going to come back for them its his way after all he is a big damn hero!
He's lookin to kill some folk
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Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:Quote:
Originally posted by Clementine:
Watched all the vid's? Stuff out on loan? You are our kind of people, JSF.
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Holding 'till the Captain gets back.
However, the guy currently borrowing was already hooked on Galaxy Quest, but I've gotten him hooked on the Due South series, and Elizabeth Moon's Serrano/Suiza set of stories. After this, I'm siccing Dark Angel upon him.
He's hooked.
Plus his wife and son.
Often, this means he'll go get his own set of DVDs, so I might get mine back sooner than planned.
Gotta love it when a plan comes together.
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheRealMe:
Your assumption, JSF, seems to be that "of course" Jayne could quickly track down the Tams (I never saw him as a great hunter, myself), the Tams could "of course" be removed from their situation with little fuss and in near zero time,
TheRealMe, Captain of the Sereni-Tree
When I first saw this and considered responding, I decided it would be too focused off-topic and further distracting from what I was looking for in this thread.
After thinking about it for a day, along with noticing something of a theme - or more of a lack of theme, around here, I will start a seperate thread.
Now that I've poked around here more, I conjure this thread should have been posted under that "episodes" forum. Althought my new thread might be better placed here, I will start it over in "episodes".
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I think it belonged here because it has brought out the reason we all are Browncoats. The values expressed in SAFE and elsewhere, like OUT OF GAS, are at the core of Whedon's writing. It touches on basic morals we learned as children pressed into us as adults.
Good place to bring it up, really.
I do wonder what your thoughts are on your original question, Mal as not trustworthy, after reading the replies. Is there any change in your mind on the subject? Just curious to know.
"There is no mind changing."
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Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I'm new to this Verse. First saw Serenity and knew I'd enjoy it when credits rolled Jewel's name. Recently watched all the Firefly episodes after catching a few on a SciFi marathon. Got the Serenity CE and Firefly DVDs.
Here's what sticks in my craw. In Safe, Mal tells Simon to go off, DON'T WORRY, WE WON'T LEAVE WITHOUT YOU.
Then, when Book needs Simon's help, they all take off without Simon and River, even after Mal is reminded they are left behind.
Mal is held up as a fairly honorable man, tho he claims not. Supposedly a man of his word. He claims he's loyal to his crew, and although his crew is who "he conjures it to be", he has already stated by this time that Simon is a member of his crew.
Additionally, later on all cast seems to completely ignore this exchange, Mal, Simon, everybody, as if it never happened.
So, is this am inconsistency with different versions of the script?
Is this an error?
Or is this the exposure of Mal really not being a trustworthy man, fully capable and willing to betray the trust of those he says can trust him?
Apologies if this has already been discussed.
Sorry if this has been brought up, but I don't have the time to read 45 posts...
Seriously, Mal was supposed to let Book die because he'd made a promise to Simon not to leave? Honestly, I think that Mal would be more blameworthy had he stayed and let Book bleed out. I mean seriously--do you really think that Mal isn't "a man of his word" because he left Simon behind to find life-saving medical assistance to a dying man? That the only "honorable" thing to do would have been to sit there and watch Book die? That's an awfully rigid standard for morality. Suppose I agreed to meet my wife for lunch at noon. But as I was driving to the restaurant, there's a car accident right in front of me. I jump out of my car and drag a man out of his burning car and render first aid until the ambulance arrives. Of course, in the process of doing so, I miss my lunch date with my wife. Does that mean I'm not a man of my word? Of course not! My duty to save a life trumped my duty to keep my appointment; so there's no blameworthiness attached to my missing lunch. Same deal with Mal: his duty of life-saving trumped his duty of promise keeping--so we can't say that Mal was somehow morally blameworthy. There's no betrayal happening here: it's just that his responsibility toward Book outwieghed his responsibility to Simon. And the fact that he is an honorable man is amply demonstrated by the fact that he comes back for Simon and River as soon as he possibly can (even though doing so puts him and his crew in danger).
Again, apologies if we've already been here; just thought I toss a little Ethical Intuitionism into the discussion.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Freebrowncoat:
I do wonder what your thoughts are on your original question, Mal as not trustworthy, after reading the replies. Is there any change in your mind on the subject? Just curious to know.
"There is no mind changing."
I am entertaining the replies. I am witholding conclusion until I get my loaned out copies back and review a few things.
As plot devices, I do understand that to force the crew to go to the Alliance there must first be a removal of Simon from the ship. And although Mal made the fatal decision to go to the Alliance who refused them aid (until Book's Ident saved Mal's rep), many replies have confused these 2 factors as being the causative rather than resultant issues from telling Simon to go for a walk. The unfortunate terminology used is what makes Mal seem unworthy.
I will check several points in the episode to compare my recollection as contrasted to other recollections expressed here.
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I don't usually check back on my posts on FFF.net much after finding the OB, so sorry if this is a bit late.
My understanding is Mal left Simon and River on the planet believing they would be okay until Book was taken care of. As time was an issue, Book needed to be taken care of first. Mal originally was looking for med facilities on other settlements, but couldn't find any that weren't "too far". Finding Simon on the planet might take longer than getting to the med facility, in which case Book would die. And if Simon was injured when they found him then he wouldn't be any help to Book. Thus, leaving the the Alliance as the best option for getting Book help in time. Even if the Alliance didn't help, there were people who could help on the Alliance ship.
Now for coming back to get Simon and River, Mal never said he wouldn't return. In fact Mal says he can't look for them now, implying he'll look for them later. It may sound like he plans to leave them there entirely, but I think some of it is frustration at people questioning his command decisions. As Mal says to the villages, it was out of their way to look for Simon and River, and Jayne didn't want to come. To me this shows that Mal always intended to come back for Simon and River, no matter how long it took or who was against it.
Relevant quotes:
WASH: Well, there's Greenleaf. They'd have med help there.
MAL: Too far -- more than ten hours. Man's worse off than that.
Mal: Don't have time to be beatin' the trees looking for him now. No assurance we'd find him, or he wouldn't need a doctor himself.
MAL: Y'all see the man hanging out of the spaceship with the really big gun? Now I'm not saying you weren't easy to find. It was kinda out of our way, and he didn't want to come in the first place.
SIMON: Captain... why did you come back for us?
MAL: You're on my crew.
SIMON: Yeah, but you don't even like me. (beat)
Why'd you come back?
MAL: You're on my crew. Why we still talking about this?
As for the differences between tv Mal and movie Mal, a lot happened in between. Book left, Inara left, and from Mal's comment about having a desire to eat sometime this month, business isn't going as well as it use to, and remember, business never ran smooth to begin with. Mal is facing the very real possiblity that they won't keep flying.
Your question demonstrates why Firefly and Serenity are good shows. The characters have enough depth to them that fans can discuss the characters motives and actions. We have insight into what the characters are thinking, why they made the choices they made, etc. I'll watch the scenes again and see if maybe I change my mind.
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MaL DOES go back on his word, but not in this instance.
Check out "Those Left Behind", the comic series.
He uses a job offer as an excuse for not respecting Inara's wishes to be delivered to her gig at the Training House.
Ironically, it is Book that calls him on it, Mal admits it and makes an analogy between Book's earlier transgression (acquiring a mule for their getaway) and what someone's word is worth, when the going gets tough. Book decks Mal. He can't abide by Mal's fuzzy and self-serving version of morality any longer. Book has moved beyond the "me and mine" level of moral development. He doesn't want to become like Mal, so he leaves the ship.
I think it is an injustice to interpretate Mal as a strong and infallible leader at this point. He really doesn't take effective command of his ship and his crew until he takes action based on again, ironically, on Book's message of "belief" that there are choices that are right and wrong, beyond service to the survival of yourself, and a universal truth that all of us have free will to make them. Mal delivers the Miranda genocide to the verse, because he can, partly by his strong leadership.
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Quote:
Originally posted by mrben:Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
If you want to try, give me some quote or indication that he was exen considering going back for either Tam BEFORE Book was recovering.
I agree with you there - he doesn't. But I that's not Mal - that's Joss.
Mr. Ben hit the nail on the head. Joss constantly tries to make Mal more morally ambiguous, perhaps reacting against the 'network notes' that wanted Mal to be lighter, funnier, and more obviously 'the good guy' so viewers would identify with him better (see Joss' commentary to the pilot episode). As an earlier post mentioned, they did the same in "The Message" -- an earlier draft of the script actually had Book start to explain their plan to Tracy but Tracy didn't believe him, but it was even more tense and exciting to wonder whether Book and Mal were really going to turn Tracy in.
The same thing happens in "Bushwhacked" where Simon asks Mal if he's planning to put River "in plain sight". Again, it's Book who knows what kind of person Mal is and doesn't think for a second he's going to hand them over to the Alliance, but to increase tension for the viewers' -- and Simon -- he tries to introduce more uncertainty about Mal's motives: is he the mercenary or the honorable soldier?
(it should also be noted that, as a former Sergeant and current Captain, Mal simply doesn't like to explain himself, for example, in "Out of Gas" Mal doesn't explain to Wash that the best he can do for Zoe is help get the ship back on its feet, he just expects his orders to be followed without question and expects everyone to trust he's going to make decisions based on what's best for everyone.
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I don't need a gorram back-spaceship driver!!!
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