Mal's word no good?
POSTED BY: jewelstaitefan
UPDATED: Sunday, October 14, 2007 03:26
VIEWED: 18720
PAGE 4 of 8
Quote:
Originally posted by Clementine:
Watched all the vid's? Stuff out on loan? You are our kind of people, JSF.
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Holding 'till the Captain gets back.
I'm new to DVDs, so if there are "easter eggs" or whatever, I've missed them and will have to review.
However, the guy currently borrowing was already hooked on Galaxy Quest, but I've gotten him hooked on the Due South series, and Elizabeth Moon's Serrano/Suiza set of stories. After this, I'm siccing Dark Angel upon him.
I bought the DVDs Sat, opened and connected the 7 year old player Sun, and polished them off by Wed night to loan to him.
Now, where can I find the episodes of Six Million Dollar Man? The kidclerk at BestBuy had never heard of it.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Filliangirl4136:
First off, welcome to the site. You started you stay with quite a debate of our hero, Mel. Though I can see the point on both sides, you have to put leaving the Tams in context of Mel is a whole. He makes bad decisions; he makes good decisions, but he always takes responsibility for them.
Also, I have to say you are not giving Mr. Nathan Fillion enough credit for his performance by just looking at the script. Look at Nathan's eyes when he is fighting with the crew about leaving them. He is fighting with himself about leaving members of his crew behind, but that was the decision that was made.
I think what you are looking for is some kind of regrete for the decisions in the dialouge. I believe that Joss really believes in the actors that he casts in his shows to be able to say things without him putting them into they're mouths. (Don't shoot me! I love Joss's writing as much, not more then the rest of you, but you have to give the actors they're do. Remember the strawberry!!) Before you go and condemn Joss on an inconsistency, watch Nathan's eyes during the scenes where he is fighting for Booth's life. You can see the conflict.
That's just my opinion.
Mel is my hero.
I don't recall other inherently bad decisions by Mal, just some that seemed bad in hindsight. Except this one, which is why I brought it up. I sincerely hope nobody gets upset by this thread, and I am quite certain that the posters here are higthly fond of the characters, scripts, and wonderful performances. Just like me.
Do you think this really was a cohesive script, or perhaps some discontinuity was overlooked?
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Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Do you think this really was a cohesive script, or perhaps some discontinuity was overlooked?
Honestly, I think that you are not looking at the crew of Serenity as a family. People make statements to eachother that at the time that they mean and fall back on. I honestly believe that Joss showed that forgiveness is the most important part of making family work. Mel doesn't flat out have to say that he was wrong and that he is sorry, it's not his way.
I believe that Mel believed what he said when he said it. He doesn't have to explain that to Simon directly by saying he is sorry for leaving him, but the fact that he came back is important. In contrast, Simon's father said he would not help Simon after getting him out of jail if he got in trouble again, and he never helped him again regarding River.
Yes, Mel went back on his word, like all father-figures do, but he made an effort to make it right. You have to put Mel in a context of a father to Simon and River to see why there is no direct response necessary.
By the way, you are completely not hurting anyone's feeling by putting your thoughts up. You have a lot of nerve for standing your ground, and I give you props.
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just some scattered additions -
Mal - planning is not his strong point...
SAFE is the first step into Simon and River being accepted as family - Objects in space being the last (and most significant for River)... see Joss's commentary...
so there is an internal arc from Mal 'turning away' - to 'coming back' - which is actually the hinge for the episode.
all the interanal conflicts, niggles and possible discontinuity frictions are part and parcel of what keep firefly fascinating viewing after viewing...
the question about SAFE for me is : If Mal hadn't been pursuaded to get Alliance help then what???
and would he really have gone elsewhere if the crew hadn't pressured him?
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In the pilot episode "Serenity", when Mal is confronted by several problems at one time (having fugitives on board, having a Fed onboard, and having marked Alliance goods on board), when everyone else is arguing about what to do, Mal indicates his general way of thinking. He says, "Way it is is the way it is. We got to deal with what's in front of us." That being said, he dealt in a very consistent way with the situation in "Safe". What was in front of him then was a dying Book. As soon as that problem was solved, then he could progress to the next thing in front of him, which was retrieving the Tams. When Zoe says that it would be simpler without them, please take note of the way Mal responds. "Yeah, simpler", he says, but in a way to indicate that he is not planning to follow the simpler course. This fits in with the rest of the episode with the juxtaposition of Gabriel Tam's abandonment versus Mal's coming to their aid. It also fits in with the overall pattern of Mal's actions throughout the series, and is, (I think), the most reasonable way to look at this moment in the show. And by the way, welcome to the site! :)
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very nicely put:)
i think Mal lives on his instincts...
... but a conflicted man has contrary instincts...
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Hi, JSFan! Welcome to the site!
Here are my own thoughts on this topic:
In a crisis, there is often no time to carefully explain one's ideas or reasons. In a crisis, Mal issues orders that he expects to be obeyed without question. Most of the time, Mal's orders end up being the correct thing to do. That is one of the things that makes Mal a good leader.
He did so when Serenity was about to be boarded in Bushwacked. He told Simon to get River. Simon thought that he and his sister would be handed over to the Alliance. Book said to go along with Mal. It turns out that the Tams hid outside Serenity in vac suits.
He did so in Message, when the lawmen were after Tracey. Tracey thought that he was about to be handed over. But no, Mal had another plan.
He did so in Safe when he ordered Serenity off planet to try to save Book. This was one more example of him not explaining himself on camera.
Your assumption, JSF, seems to be that "of course" Jayne could quickly track down the Tams (I never saw him as a great hunter, myself), the Tams could "of course" be removed from their situation with little fuss and in near zero time, "of course" Simon would be able to get cleaned up and ready for surgery, and "of course" Simon would be skilled enough and in time to save Book.
No. Not necessarily. Serenity's crew already wasted valuable time with Wash searching the town for the Tams and finding nothing. What next? Seek out each and every settlement in that area of the planet, land there, and search each house door by door? How long would it take to do one settlement? How many settlements are in the local area within walking distance of that town? Two? Five? Twenty? What if the Tams were not in any settlement, but were being held in some cave or shack in the woods?
Too many variables for a quick solution, and Mal needed a quick solution.
Here are the thoughts that I see running through Mal's head:
"Could Simon be found quickly enough to save Book? Perhaps, but not if it took much longer. Could Simon save Book with the equipment and supplies on Serenity and with no medical assistants? Maybe. Was Simon unhurt and conscious, or might Simon himself be incapacitated? Unknown."
Then:
"Could Serenity get to the Alliance ship before Book died? Yes, they knew where that ship was, the Magellan, I think. Did the Alliance ship have the facilities to help Book? Yes, they probably had a complete hospital on board. Would they be willing to help Book like Inara thinks? Unknown."
I think that Mal weighed these thoughts in his head and decided that the most likely way to save Book was to go after the Alliance ship, but he would have to leave the Tams behind. Mal was faced with no easy solution. Star Trek often has quick AND easy solutions to complex problems that fall in the lap of whatever captain the story is about. This was a complex problem that did not have an easy solution. This is like real life.
You are right that Mal broke his promise. He was forced by circumstances to leave the Tams behind. But when he made that promise, Mal could not have foreseen the events as they were about to unfold.
With the number of times that Mal risked everything to save the Tams during the series and movie, why would do you think he would suddenly abandon them in Safe? If you can't really provide a good reason, then please consider the possibility that he NEVER intended to abandon them, that he ALWAYS intended to return for them.
Like he eventually did.
TheRealMe, Captain of the Sereni-Tree
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Like it has been said before:
Mal did keep his word. He came back. He had to leave the Tams for a while, but it was only temporary.
Also, Simon would understand. He's a doctor, for crying out loud. Simon would doubtless know Book's chances for survival if the crew had gone to look for him.
Beies, Mal would have expeced to find them safe. "Now they've got themselves a doctor.", he says. Normally, people don't burn their doctors at the stake. That's kind of stupid on their part.
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My favorite quotes: 
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J Fan:
Specious and narrow. Try being in command sometime. You make the best decisions among AVAILABLE choices put inm front of you at the time. After action some monor point may come out but if you did not have that information when it was pertinent, the choice you make is still the best possible.
ALl the arguments have been made but if I may put forth one analogy. During the battle of Guadalcanal, the Navy had to make a hard decision to leave troops without support, abandon them to destroy a fleet heading their way with hostile intent and superior positioning. The decision was made to leave, hoping to destroy the opposing fleet then come back for the troops.
This was the same decision put forth by Whedon et al for Mal's character. He made the only decision having any probability of success available to him at the time. Period.
"You're on my crew. Why we still talking about this?"
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period.
except -- remembering we are examining Mal's CHARACTER - he had to be PURSUADED to get Alliance help for Book.
Ofcourse - in a military situation (obviously depending on time allowed), opinions are sought, information gathered, advice offered and then the command decides - at which point argument ends.
However, although Mal loosely uses this system, he is fickle with it over the course of FF and BDM as a whole. And using the SAFE example, we still gain some character insight don't you agree?
- please note, i don't disagree with the main body of your post AT ALL, Freebrowncoat. -
keep flyin:)
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