UF student tased at John Kerry speech
POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Friday, September 28, 2007 12:10
VIEWED: 27394
PAGE 3 of 4
Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
So, as a lawyer you feel this irresistable urge to add a disclaimer to everything?
If "as a lawyer" you mean officer of the court and member in good standing of the Ohio State Bar and presently engaged in the active practice of law within the jurisdiction confines of the State of Ohio, the United States of America, and other American states on a limited basis as per their local rules and reciprocity agreements, and by "irresistable urge" you mean a desire to be as clear as possible about the meaning, context, and content of my message, and by "add" you mean insert in the most non-invasive way in order to convey the clarification, limitation, admonishment or footnote without distracting from the larger point, and by "disclaimer" you mean 1) A refusal or renunciation of a claim or right, or (2) A refusal or denial of responsibility for a claim or an act, or(3) the written clause or document that sets out the disclaimer, and by "everything" you mean all opinions, statements, claims, representations, or assertions made speaking for myself or in an official capacity then the answer is...no.
Edited to add: By "No" I in no way relinquish any rights, duties, obligations, or privilages to revise, extend, or clarify any remark on any subject in any forum under any jurisdiction. By answering "no" I in no way assert that the answer "no" has any definitive or enforcable legal obligation to not so disclaim as necessary any statements at the sole discretion of myself or my designated representative.
H
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, I see the jackboots are out in full force.
.
I actually have some Jackboots. I bought some Russian army officers boots back around 10 years ago for a costume. Later on I found they were prized by WW2 re-enactors because they are very similar to German boots from the 1940's. Apparently back before the war the German army used to train in Russia to avoid the attention of the Western Allies. Russian officers were so impressed with the look of the new German officer's uniforms that they copied parts of it. Consequently these boots subjugated Europe twice.
I added flaps to the top of mine had them changed so that I could lace the backs and wear them with my Swashbucker outfit. In my view they needed to be liberated.
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Quote:Ya gotta admit, even if you don't agree with the guy, he has a sense of humor. I hurt myself laughing at this. I left a message with my lawyers' secretary, he said he'd get back to me first thing tomorrow.
Originally posted by Hero:
[...]the answer is...no. [...]
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Quote:Eh, I'm too busy. I spent too much time on this board last week, and I got behind on my wanton oppressing of peaceful protesters and kindergarten kids.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, I see the jackboots are out in full force.
I need to go stomp some puppies.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Re-watched the original video trying to keep the 'open attitude' open...
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
"What if he's not 'just a pissed college kid'; what if instead he's a 'calculating college kid' who understands that if he wants his 'message' to get out, he's -got- to get the police to at least cuff him, and better taser him. If he doesn't get the coverage, he will in his opinion failed. What percentage of cops have (not should have, but do) the skill to get someone out without resorting to at least cuffs if not a taser under such a circumstance? Much of what I saw suggested 'theater' rather than genuine anger. Does that change what tatics you think the cops should have used?
Not really.
The key to verbal de-escalation, combined with perhaps a bit of shadowdance thrown in for positioning, is two words - "I want."
What did this guy WANT?
His questions answered ?
To provoke a response ?
Fact is, we do not know - we can assume, sure, but we do not *know*, and secondguessing that is irrelevant when proper de-escalation methods are used.. to be downright blunt about it, most cops escalate a situation without even knowing it, by invading personal space, assuming a threatening posture, and then verbally abusing or threatening, stuff virtually *Guaranteed* to escalate a situation when dealing with someone who's flaked out, be it drugs, rage, fear, or a percieved wrong done unto them.
Cutting the mic ? good response, that one.
Again, I haven't seen the video, but experience tells me they bungled the verbal - and IF he was lookin for an incident, then they walked right into it completely oblivious, which is IMOP an even *worse* gaffe than overreaction, outright incompetence on their part.
Also, the angle of de-escalation can change rapidly, because anything that triggers a fear reaction from the person you're dealing with requires an instant change in tactics - that whole me-have-bigger-club shit is the root of a whole bunch of needless problems, and something that needs to be addressed at the entry level, cause once calcified, retraining is not time-cost effective.
I do not know what was said, but ponder two potential scenarios.
#1 - "Ok guy, look, you made your point, and the property owner has asked us to escort you from the premises, and we gotta do that, so let's us take a walk shall we ? no need for any trouble or hassle, I hate paperwork, and I'm sure you don't want any hassle, so why have any, right ?"
(Offered from outside personal space, in a paternal and comforting tone, followed by edging towards the door yourself, as if it's the only reasonable thing to do...)
#2 - "Ok you fucking punk, you're gonna move or be moved, and don't try me cause I'll fuck your day up totally, asshole!"
(Snarled from inside personal space, in a threatening tone, combined with an aggressive posture while advancing into dire threat range.)
Which one do YOU think would have worked better ?
Which one do YOU think was closer to the actual approach used ?
Some of the mistakes are so common, so obvious, that there's no excuse whatever for them.
-Frem
Ok, to your two questions...
'Which one do YOU think would have worked better ?' While I believe the first question was clearly 'more right' than the second question, I'm not convinced it would have worked better.
'Which one do YOU think was closer to the actual approach used ?' Hard to say; very hard to hear the officers. I will say this; they kept their volume under very good self control. They managed to avoid the 'loud angry', and I'm confident they did a good job of staying away from the abusive language.
The 'paternal, outside of personal space thing' I do not believe was an option; the guy was hyped up and hopping about; until they laid hands on him, he appeared to be determined to 'hold the spotlight'. Maybe orienting themselves between Kerry and the student, and 'herding' the student to the exit? Of course, heaven help the cops if an audience member then got hurt.
Could they have handled it better?
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Quote:Reaverman, I just can't believe your post. Umm... lets' see... the upshot seems to be that this kid had it coming to him because things are worse in Mexico???
because I am an American living in Mexico, and while Mexico isn't a third world country where they torture dissenters, it is far closer to that than the U.S. is. If the cops pull you over here, they don't need probable cause (well maybe they are supposed to have it in theory, but if so, they ignore that particular rule) and you will more often than not be given a choice between a bribe or arrest.
Plus, when they do arrest you, Mexico's justice system follows Napoleonic Law, in that the basic assumption is the reverse of the one in the U.S. Instead of "Innocent until proven guilty", with the burden of proving your guilt on the state, it is "guilty until proven innocent" and the burden is on the accused to prove their innocence. While none of this is what I would call a serious injustice, it's enough to give a body a newfound appreciation for the U.S. Justice System.
I guess my problem is that I despise ignorance and I want to rectify it when I find it, whether it's in myself, or in others. And this douchebag knows nothing about about how things really work out there and it pisses me off that he thinks he does.
So, we should strive to be like Mexico? Or accept that we share some of their less desirable traits?
I hope you have a chance to travel to Iceland, Sweden, Norway, or Denmark and relieve yourself of some of that macho ignorance.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Except for a few zingers here and there I've been too busy to post. There's a deep division on this post between the authoritarians and the libertarians/ anarchists and I'm not surprised by who fell on whicb side of the argument.
There seems to be a rather general assumption that authoritarianism is the preferred method of creating "peace" and "order". The problem with that approach is (1) power corrupts and (2) force and pain can escalate a trivial situation into a something deadly.
But more fundamentally, the world is not always the win/lose conflict that authoritarians are mesmerized with. Conflict can sometimes be resolved by win/ win strategies, or by compromise (where everyone gets a little of what they want). In a general sense, it seems interesting that those capitalist countries with the most extreme difference in wealth have the highest incarceration rates.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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"Oh, and as for playing the logic and reason angle from the pro-taser folk - unless you're assuming people have the short term memory of a goldfish, it's NOT gonna fly.
You all make your position absolutely clear in the beginning of the thread with statements indicating that those who disagree with the established order should be abused, so having done that, shown your true colors through the mask, going back to the logic and reason fantasy fools no one."
Hey Frem... That's a blanket I don't think I deserve to snuggle under. A rather rough and itchy one, too. I'm hoping none of my posts give the impression that I think folks ought to be abused, and I hope none of my posts were anything less than thoughtful.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Edited to add: Oh, and bring a toothbrush. We can provide you a copy of the Koran...but good dental hygene is something you need to handle yourself.H
LOLZ...
I believe it's actually Quran, and I put about as much stock in Allah as I do the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Santa Claus.
Actually... Santa Claus is pretty much just a commercialized and PG-13ized version of Allah when you think about it. Both of them get whiny weak minded children or childlike idiots to behave a certain way in return for rewards.
And having never seen Allah myself, one can only assume by looking at a lot of his followers that, like Santa, he wears a dumb hat and sports a silly looking beard too.
And FSM is just a mascot for idiot crybabies. So they can group toghether and whine about how oppressed they are. One might wonder if their God might be angry with them if they ate pasta. Take it a step further, and you might wonder if there are any Italian FSM worshipers? That life would really have to suck. Homemade Lasagna the way them goombas make it is the bomb shit. And relax there killer.... before you mount your lawsuit against me for a hate crime, I can call them Goombas cause I'm a greaseball wop myself.
I've got nothing against the Tooth Fairy though. Can't say nothing bad about toothbrushes and good dental hygene. Batman owes his life to good dental hygene... and if you know what I'm talking about, you watch way too much TV for a laywer type.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Yeh I turned down a union ralley with John Kerry in Pittsburgh but I did go to my NRA meeting instead with good ole Wayne. Nobody got tased.
"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".
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Nah, that wasn't directed at you, Anthony, but rather the few who flatly stated such sentiment early in the thread - showing their true colors, as it were.
That bein said...
One of my points keeps coming back to mind, too, I stated what the law is, what our rights are, and you countered with what would really happen, perhaps cause you didn't quite get what I posted after that, the admission that things don't really work that way.
That's the core of my point though, we created courts and cops to PROTECT our laws and rights, and in practice they serve to actively DENY those to us - there's something very, very wrong with that, and I find it downright offensive that not only are other folks not much pissed about it, they accept it as a standard practice.
If you put up an electric fence to keep your cattle secure, and then lost a quarter of the herd cause the charge was high enough to harm them - you'd do something about that fence, wouldn't you ?
This is about something put in place to perform a function, in practice doing exactly the opposite, which is completely unacceptable in any other business, but law enforcement seems to get a free pass, and I want it revoked.
Civvie review boards are a hell of a good idea, although as stated, had that NOT been caught on tape, it would have been free pass time again - maybe we can use their own surveillence society against em, in our own defense, and that's worth a thought since our efforts to prevent it are matched against the brick wall of a Gov that doesn't care much what us peons think.
By positioning, yeah, a bit of subtle herding wouldn't have been amiss, and no matter that the guy didn't SEEM a threat, I damned well woulda placed an officer or two between him and Kerry, just to be on the safe side - cutting the mic was a GOOD idea given the situation, and the decency to do it AFTER he gave up reason and started ranting speaks well of who made that decision.
Whoever it was who said everyone grab a limb prolly had the best idea, they coulda easily done that and simply carried him out dispassionately without responding to his verbal onslaught, and all he would have done was embarrass himself - and let's *pretend* for a moment that they wouldn't beat him mercilessly as soon as they got him out of sight, right... they carry him to the edge of the property, set him down gently while informing him that any attempt to return WILL result in an arrest for tresspassing, and if he doesn't accept that, cuff him and stuff him, quick and clean... he doesn't get his "scene", and the officers and their actions are on far firmer ground, even if the cameras followed em out the door, yes ?
As for Hero's comments, he's just mostly pissed that if I ever do have my way in this significantly, he's out of a cushy, well paying job where the whole setup is totally in his favor 100% of the time and he doesn't have to do much, so he's protecting his own interests there.
He also has a pretty good, if warped, sense of humor too, and occasionally makes an intelligent comment as well, but then, so too does PN.
In short.
1 - Make police answerable to the community, let them decide whether the officers are serving or abusing it.
2 - Reclass the Taser as a Less-Lethal, not Non-Lethal, weapon and put it in the proper place on the force continuum (think rubber bullets).
(As a bonus, this would provide an extra measure of legal protection to an officer who DID have to use one, as he could justify it more effectively)
Sure, that would end it's use a pain compliance device, but pain compliance doesn't work, and Succotash made the best comment on that one so far.
You'd also have a counter to Taser-Trauma and ED lawsuits by pointing out that next up in the continuum is the service weapon, which is undeniably lethal.
3 - Get these guys some actual training in physical and verbal de-escalation, immediately, that's one use of tax money that will in the end SAVE money by requiring less payout to lawsuits, and less escalation means less incarceration, which is a damned expensive th
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Also, an interesting thought leaped out at me earlier, which might be of particular interest to some folks like HKCav and those who've discussed how we treat kids with me here before.
I was mentally chewing on the way many officers instantly go fully ballistic the very moment any sign of challenge or defiance to their will or way of looking at things is perceived, and you know, there's a dead-bang match to that kind of behavior somewhere else.
In the poisonous parenting style advocated by Dobson, Esso and the like, the cop-suspect behavior dynamic pointed out repeatedly here, is virtually identical to the parent-child dynamic of this parenting style, one proven to not only not work, but to be traumatic and abusive.
I find myself wondering if that is just one more way the social cost of such idiocy comes back to haunt us, by authority figures who emulate or act out the strategies they learned from their own parents via folk like Dobson.
No way to ever *really* know, mind you - but the thought came to mind when I realized the two behavior dynamics were virtually identical.
Could be wrong, sure.. but you know, I don't think so... really I don't.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Reaverman, I just can't believe your post. Umm... lets' see... the upshot seems to be that this kid had it coming to him because things are worse in Mexico???
So, we should strive to be like Mexico? Or accept that we share some of their less desirable traits?
I hope you have a chance to travel to Iceland, Sweden, Norway, or Denmark and relieve yourself of some of that macho ignorance.
WTF? LOL, okay where did you get that idea from? What I was talking about was that there are systems out there that I have personal experience with that have real injustice. My point was that before you start shouting about how America is becoming a police state, take a look around at how real police states operate, and thank god (buddah, allah, odin, whatever) every day that we live under a system where this is a big deal.
"Relieve myself of some of that macho ignorance"? WTF does that mean? If you would actually read my post, you would know what an idiot you sound like there.
[img]
[/img]"I refuse to submit,
To the god you say is kind.
I know what's right, and it is time,
It's time to fight, and free our minds!
Our spirits were forged in snow and ice,
To bend like steel forged over fire.
We were not made to bend like reed,
Or to turn the other cheek!"
- from the song "Thousand Years of Opression" by Amon Amarth
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Umm, RM, dude - don't you get it, folks see it sliding down the crapper INTO that, and wanna stop it.
What part of that did you somehow not get ?
Link to the vid I got to run, sorta
I kinda-sorta got one of the vids to work on the machine, but it looks horrible, still, enough to go on, or rather, go off on.
And oh lawdy, imma gonna go OFF here - you were warned.
(i.e. bail now if you can't handle some profanity and nastiness...)
(okay then..)
The officer who drew his SERVICE WEAPON on this guy ? needs to be fired, IMMEDIATELY.
You don't pull and point a fucking gun at someone mouthing off, especially not WHILE two other offices had him by the arms, that's prelude to a fucking public execution and absolutely needless escalation and provocation, it appeared some of the protestors movements were in response to the gun pointed at him, AND it endangered the other two officers attempting to control the guy.
Muzzle sweeping the lot of em with finger on the trigger ? people DIE from that shit, many for no reason, like that betting pool guy they pulled a dynamic entry on, someone with their finger on the trigger sneezed, hiccuped or twitched, and now the guy is dead - rule number fucking ONE, keep yer booger hook OFF the bang switch unless yer gonna bust a cap.
Rule number TWO, only point at somethin you fully intend to shoot, was this cop gonna cap their buddies or what ?
Rule number THREE, check behind your goddamn target in case you miss or blow through, guess he didn't give a damn about the peons behind the incident, eh ?
UN-ACCEPTABLE, period.
Now, at 14 seconds in, one of the officers approaches the guy, without any discussion or verbal what-so-ever that I could detect (this machine has no sound card and I didn't see any lips moving) - steps into his personal space from his blindside and lays hands on him, clearly startling him and provoking what looked to me like a purely reflex recoil reaction (as he stopped and kinda doubletakes at 15-16) as the other officer moves in behind him.
At 17 he turns to face the officer, a natural reaction since no one likes someone looming behind them inside their personal space, and lifts his arms in a non-threatening body posture.
At 18-19 the officers respond by grabbing his arms and physically moving him, and the larger officer is clearly applying significant force, while the body posture of the protestor is shocked disbelief.
At 20 he AGAIN raises his arms, and proceeds to move towards the exit of his own violition, his stance and expression seem to indicate a desire to de-escalate.
All seems well till 22, something off-camera to the left COMPLETELY spooks the guy (officer drawin weapon perhaps?) and he freaks, the smaller officer is still guiding, but the larger one goes right for the strongarm again.
The protestors body posture indicates not just shock, but fear, perhaps abject terror, at this point he's scared completely shitless, as he backsteps and looks for an alternate route at about 23 - did they make the dire mistake of putting a cop BETWEEN him and the door, cause that quick look... is at the spot where the emergency exit would be in most theatres, he's LOOKIN for a way OUT of there, dammit.
At 24 he erupts into total panic and attempted flight from whatever has frightened him so, he's no longer responding to the officers save as a hindrance to his progress AWAY from the percieved threat.
At 27-28 he seems to regain some composure and goes again to a non-threatening, arms lifted posture, as he moves laterally again, AWAY from a percieved threat, I don't quite see where the third officer came from, but it appears to be from the aisle, which means he moved toward the officer, which he would not have done if he was intent on eluding them, and do note that he is struggling TOWARDS exiting the building, and treating the officers as a hindarance to his exit.
At 29 the new officer, with darker complexion, draws their service weapon, scaring the guy completely sh
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No, I guess I ain't done yet.
Thought it over a bit... fuck the taser, what these cops did, officer 3 specifically, was issue a valid, credible and undeniable DEATH THREAT as a fucking compliance measure.
What was he gonna do, blow his head off if he didn't shut up ?
That's pure fucking jackboot to the Nth degree, and being that the object of his ire was at the time firmly in the control of two other officers he don't even have the laughable pretense of fearing for his life, nope, it was a purely malicious and criminal act.
Legally, morally, past that point *ANYTHING* the guy did to escape the situation and the custody of the people who just THREATENED TO MURDER HIM, is completely justified up to and including physical harm to officers who tried to prevent his retreat.
Fuck the tasing, these guys went lightyears beyond that, and legally they've zero ground to even stand on, not after sticking a gun in the kids face, in public, on camera, in front of a shitload of witnesses, oh hell no.
And anyone who's "OK with that" can go fuck themselves.
I'm actually rather shocked that no one else brought that up or even mentioned it, are we really THAT accepting of such behavior from the street gang dressed in blue ?
-F
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
The officer who drew his SERVICE WEAPON on this guy ? needs to be fired, IMMEDIATELY.
Having read the incident report 'Tash cited earlier, I note that the officer drew a tazer, not a firearm. At the request of another officer, he almost immediately re-holstered it. Might be worthwhile to review the report.
Also, you might also want to try and find a system with audio, since the sound portion of the video is important to interpreting it.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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It's amazing how much one sees what one wants to see. How many folks have watched the video and not commented on the drawn service weapon?
For one me. Didn't see it. Re-watched it, sure enough, there it is.
Anyone else miss that, and does it affect your opinion?
I agree it was not just pulled; if the officer had the weapon clearly aimed to the floor or ceiling, I'd say it was a questionable action; but to have it at chest level to the student, which means head level to some of the audience, is simply unwise to say the least. If I was Kerry, I would have hit the deck at that point; guy has some nerve anyway.
I would say the officer with the gun out at least deserves disciplinary action; and possibly separation from the force.
Blocking the exit? I didn't catch that; if true, I think that's another bad move. What if this kid 'gets away'? Clearly he's a student at the school, pick him up later if you feel the need. I do not believe he presented a general danger to the community.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Dinky, I think you are ill informed.
How am I ill informed? I saw several different camera angle videos, just like everyone else and I know what I saw. His mic was turned off, yes, then the cops started to move on him and a cop PULLED OUT HAND-CUFFS! They don't need hand-cuffs to escort you out, they just need to either tell you to leave or grab your arms and walk you out.
Even so, that kid didn't flip out at first, he only started to flip out after a couple of seconds of the cops making their moves. Sounds to me like they told him he was under arrest.
"Th3re !s n0 spo0Ne." -The Matricks
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Quote:If you read the arrest report as Geezer indicated you will see that Officer De Jesus did not draw a firearm. He drew his TAZER. It doesn’t even look like a firearm in the video. Why are you even taking Frem seriously? Isn't it obvious that he's operating purely on histrionics at this point?
Originally posted by leadb:
It's amazing how much one sees what one wants to see. How many folks have watched the video and not commented on the drawn service weapon?
For one me. Didn't see it. Re-watched it, sure enough, there it is.
Anyone else miss that, and does it affect your opinion?
Okay someone just told me that if you’re not real familiar with firearms it would be easy to confuse the grainy image in the video.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dinky:Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Dinky, I think you are ill informed.
How am I ill informed?
"he asked several questions beforehand with no problem"
This is the quote that made me feel you were ill informed. Because he did have problems. He was asked to give up the mic before there was an intervention. It wasn't that the 'Skull and Crossbones' question triggered a response, but rather his continued presence in flouting the conventions of the venue and the wishes of those operating it.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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He drew from the right hip, the weapon had a flash or lazer sight under the barrel, and from where I sit, and mind you I *am* familiar with firearms, it looks like a service weapon to me, was drawn from the location most police carry one, and sorry, if you drew something like that on me as a civvie during a "situation", I woulda shot you.
Get me a better picture then, a still image closeup of his hands and what's in em, cause your word carries no stock with me, and having read the police report and noted that the officers in question prettymuch lied front to back, they sure as hell don't have any credibility with me neither - wouldn't believe either of you if you told me the sky was blue, not till I checked it myself.
Picture, or stop talking - fair enough ?
Histronics my ass, I am pissed off, have every right to BE pissed off, and if I take this object as a firearm, it's quite likely the guy staring down the barrel did too, my assertion stands either way - and who's bright fucking idea would it be to make them resemble firearms deliberately, especially in the hands of a collective that would shoot a kid for holding a "realistic" toy gun ?
You can't have that both ways.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Hello,
At Frem's urging I re-watched the video and looked for an officer drawing a firearm.
I was so entranced by the hopping, bouncing, shouting kid, that I didn't see it before.
An officer does indeed draw a dark looking pistol-shaped object with a light or some kind of attachment under the barrel. I might have considered this object to be a taser, but it does not look like the ones I've seen. The officers I've seen who carry tasers have bright yellow or neon colored taser pistols, which signal to everyone that they are not traditional firearms.
I will join Frem in questioning the actions of Officer 3. It was very inappropriate to draw his service weapon during this altercation.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:If I showed you a picture, you’d swear it was a firearm designed to look like a taser. You’d made up your mind that these officers were SS-troops before you’d even watched the video. The incident report clearly indicates that the office drew a taser, but since that doesn’t fit your hysterical ideology, you ignore it. You’re whole position in this thread has been hysterical from the beginning.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Picture, or stop talking - fair enough ?
Not that your posts haven’t been interesting. Yours are some of the most interesting on the board, but your argument is still crap.
This is a taser. The same kind used by officer De Jesus.
http://www.taser.com/products/law/Pages/TASERX26.aspx
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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A second re-watching confirms to my mind that he drew a service weapon. After drawing the weapon, there is a moment where it appears a grappling officer turns to him and speaks to him, at which point he lowers the weapon and eventually holsters it.
If it were a taser, one would think he'd keep it at the ready in order to subdue the subject if necessary. What really seems to have happened is that he drew his weapon and even the other officers involved were like, "What are you doing, man? Put that away."
I also confirmed the dark color of the weapon, which is not typical of taser pistols.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:If you watch the video carefully and compare the weapon drawn by Officer De Jesus with the image of the X-26 Taser on the site I posted, you will clearly see the yellow tag on the side of the taser.
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
A second re-watching confirms to my mind that he drew a service weapon. After drawing the weapon, there is a moment where it appears a grappling officer turns to him and speaks to him, at which point he lowers the weapon and eventually holsters it.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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For them maybe not so familiar with guns and such, this.
THIS is a taser.
http://www.defensereview.com/article550.html
THIS is a glock 17 with attached tactical light.
http://www.sniperworld.com/books/gear_7.html
And from 29-34 in the video, at NO time do I see a yellow tip on the weapon the dark complexion officer is holding.
I see what looks to me VERY much like a Glock17 with Taclight, enough so to make a shoot/no-shoot decision on someone and bust a cap, if (as a cit, not a LEO) you pulled something like that out on me during a scuffle, from the right hip, I'd have shot you for sure, and as we discussed heavily in the school shooter thread that's not a decision I would come to save in response to a credible threat of immediate bodily harm.
I also state that if you drew that on a cop, they'd shoot you too, and be justified in doing so, and where does that leave us ?
-F
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Quote:First of all, the Yellow tag is visible. Second, the incident report, which you continue to ignore, clearly indicates that the weapon is a taser. Third, why would a campus police officer be carrying a service weapon with a laser sight? I don’t know a single federal agent or military police that routinely carries a weapon with a laser sight.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
And from 29-34 in the video, at NO time do I see a yellow tip on the weapon the dark complexion officer is holding.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Well, I could be wrong. Here are all the stills I could pull of the officer. I also got one still that shows his belt from the left side, which may help?
--Anthony
P.S. Anyone know how to post pictures? (never mind.)
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Finn, I do not see whatever tag you're talkin about, and I just went frame by frame though that thing, I would need a higher resolution image to make an accurate assessment perhaps, but the object in his hand more closely resembles a Glock17 with Taclight than an X-26, which doesn't mount one - you can clearly see the taclight is on, and since when do tasers come with a taclight ?
And why should I give credence to an incident report written by (in my opinion) the offending party, after the fact, which contains unquestionable bias as well as numerous blatant falsehoods - I am going on the evidence of my own eyes.
Anthony, you missed a "T" in your links, they're htp instead of http, so they're blank X's.
I cut right to em, and in link 2 and 3 you can clearly see the object has a taclight attached, which is on and active - didn't see no taclight on the X-26.
If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, and quacks like a duck - till proven otherwise, I am gonna assume it's a fucking duck, okay ?
PROVE that's a Taser.
And then, if you manage that, ponder how it doesn't much affect that the officers in question hosed this one front to back, constantly provoking and escalating the situation, acting in an abusive manner more suited to a drunken barroom brawl than resolving an incident.
SHOW me a taser with a taclight on it, at the very least, cause I ain't never seen such a thing myself - although admittedly I've been out of the field for years, but you'd think I would know since I do keep my hand in from an advisory capacity.
-F
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Hey all,
This is the alleged taser. It does have some kind of light on the bottom. It has a lot less yellow on it than I usually see on a taser, but it does have that yellow rectangle sign on the side.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:Thanks, Anthony. The clearest image of the yellow tag on the side of the taser can be seen in a frame or so before the second image you posted. I pulled off some images and when I remember my password for my webspace I’ll upload them and post them, probably tonight.
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Well, I could be wrong. Here are all the stills I could pull of the officer. I also got one still that shows his belt from the left side, which may help?
Also the X-26 has a laser sight on it. I figured that was obvious if anyone looked at the image on the site I posted, but Frem is still arguing that if you can see a laser sight it means it’s a Glock, which isn’t true.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Well,
I'd rather be fair than right. No sense skewering someone for pulling a gun if it mighta been a taser.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hey all,
This is the alleged taser. It does have some kind of light on the bottom. It has a lot less yellow on it than I usually see on a taser, but it does have that yellow rectangle sign on the side.
Well I suspect civilian Tasers are probably bright colours for the same reason plastic guns are -- to prevent a cop with a REAL gun from accidentally shooting you. However, by the look of the styling on this Taser it seems they have gone out of their way to make it look as "macho" as possible, probably because it's a model they want to sell into police departments. I doubt your average cop would want something that is as yellow and wimpy looking as a civilian taser.
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This is a clearer picture but a sucky angle
The section just above the hand seems to have yellow flashing on it. The Taser seems to have some yellow there, does the Glock?
Note that from his stance this guy is right handed, but this pic shows a holsered gun on his right side and on the left side pic Anthony posted there is a pouch that could be an empty holster on the left side.
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Thanks Anthony - so that model has a taclight and no yellow tip, so you bagged the exact evidence I was asking for, zoom and cleanup on stills shows the taclight at a slightly recessed position, which is consistent with the picture you've posted.
Stupid as the day is long to make em like that, there never be one *ounce* of doubt whether a firearm or taser - and removing the yellow tip causes some severe problems, as we've just seen.
This is the first I have heard of that, so am I correct in assuming that's a law enforcement only model, cause no security agency I know of uses em, and in fact none would for liability reasons, cause unless it's undeniably clear it's not a firearm, most folks will take it for one.
Very well then, I'll accept that the object is a taser rather than a firearm based on the evidence you submitted - it still makes officer 3 a shithead who totally overreacted to and further provoked the situation, and I present to you that in the heat of the moment, other folks, including yon protestor, may have taken it for a firearm as well, especially when you're looking at it barrel on with the taclight obscuring a clear view of the object.
He could very well have thought it was a gun, I know WE took it for one, and that says much.
Also doesn't whatsoever change the fact that the officers in question hosed it, they did everything possible to escalate and provoke, while actively preventing the guy from leaving, as I pointed out in the frame by frame, something he very clearly WANTED to do.
Finn, if you wanna discuss something, discuss it, but acting like a shithead and throwing personal slams into everything you say just makes you look like a prat and savages your already laughable credibility - you could learn some lessons here from Anthony, although we've passionately disagreed on some points, we're discussing it instead of attacking each other - just a suggestion.
Whatever you think of my sanity, my attitude, or political stance, you have to give me that I am at least asking the right questions, without which this would be just one more unproductive tit-for-tat, of which we have too many as it is.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Picture, or stop talking - fair enough ?
How about another video from a different angle?
=
Within the first few seconds of this video you see the officer on the left of the image holding the tazer, the yellow tag pretty visible against the female officer's shirt at about second 5. You can also see his service weapon in his holster on his right hip. At about 13 seconds in, he holsters the tazer on his right belly area and the service weapon is still visible on his hip.
Edit to add:
Seconds 18 to 24 or so sure looks like the officers are trying to move Mr. Meyer up the aisle to the door. When they get near (the female officer already going through the door) Mr. Meyer breaks loose and runs away from the door to the side. I don't see him trying to leave the auditorium.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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REAVERMAN
Quote:Macho. And... so what??? If you had experience with Pinochet's Chile or Iran's Savak (under the Shah) would you then be telling is that Mexico isn't so bad? Do you intend to justify one bad system with an even worse one ad nauseam?
...What I was talking about was that there are systems out there that I have personal experience with that have real injustice.
Quote:The only "point" I see you making is that "you've seen things" and that makes this particular incident acceptable, somehow.
My point was that before you start shouting about how America is becoming a police state, take a look around at how real police states operate
Quote:Which YOU seem to be intent on downplaying until it's NOT a big deal, bringing us a couple steps closer to Mexico.
and thank god (buddah, allah, odin, whatever) every day that we live under a system where this is a big deal.
Quote:Eh. You've had personal experience with worse. Big effing deal.
"Relieve myself of some of that macho ignorance"? WTF does that mean? If you would actually read my post, you would know what an idiot you sound like there
BTW, America has the highest incarceration rate in the world*. Based on that alone, I think we could be reasonably classified as a "police state". And yet despite our HUGE incarceration rate (more than the Russian Federation, South Africa, Mexico, Iran, India, Australia, Brazil, and Canada combined) along with beatings, shootings and other forms of authoritarian actions, we have THE highest murder rate (by several factors) in the developed world.
Time to get it into your heads: Authoritarianism doesn't work.
*
www.pbs.org/now/shows/322/americas-prisons.html
www.csmonitor.com/2003/0818/p02s01-usju.html
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Curious if this guy WAS trespassing. All I've seen is a simple assertion he was, but no facts. Does anyone have any facts on the trespassing claim ?
Was the person a student ? If not, I'm guessing that the university is a state school. If it is, that makes it public property. In addition, MOST state university functions are open to the public - either gratis or by charging non-students a nominal fee (which is how a lot of student union-type groups make their money). Was it open to the public or did he pay for a ticket or otherwise gain 'lawful' entry' ?
You see, trespassing just doesn't wash unless you show he was actually - trespassing.
So, going on the assumption no one can show he was trespassing, and he neither took over the agenda or disrupted the question and answer session (it was all over at the time), can anyone come up with a rationale for tasing him ? Seeing he was doing nothing illegal or threatening and all.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Curious if this guy WAS trespassing. All I've seen is a simple assertion he was, but no facts. Does anyone have any facts on the trespassing claim ?
Mr. Meyer was charged with Disturbing the Peace and Resisting an Officer With Violence, per the police report.
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2007/images/09/18/offense.report.072274.pdf
The hall was being used for a school function set up by Accent Productions, identified in some news accounts as the student government's speakers bureau. The police report states that the Director of Accent was the person who asked the police to remove Mr. Meyer from the hall.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Rue, from what I have been able to gather, it was an open-mic event, with an intended Q&A session after - the student came on strong, but Kerry agreed to answer his questions, and they shut the mic off when he started ranting - now, that COULD have gone the way of handing the mic off and watching Kerry squirm trying to answer, and if Kerry had 2 hours, surely they coulda let this guy rant a bit - a lotta folk are very pissed off, hell, I am one of em, but it didn't go down that way... they didn't like his questions, is what it seems to me, and the officers clearly initiated hostilities by stepping into his personal space and laying hands on him, going right to the brute force approach guaranteed to escalate a dispute into a full blown situation.
If I am having a debate with a fellow citizen, heated or not, and he steps into my zone and lays his hands on me - that's assault, and imma remove him from my zone, or remove my zone from him, using violence if need be.
For mine own, I damn well would have LIKED to see Kerry TRY to answer those questions - but we can't have that, can we... folks might start asking OTHER questions not in the script, and the answers, or lack of em, might start makin people think - and they REALLY can't have that, can they ?
As for most of the audience, typical sheep, they were watching the "show", they cheered the student, and then cheered the cops when they manhandled him, nothing is more fickle than the mind of the mob... just a real life extension of watching COPS on the TV at home, yanno ?
I did try watching it on the Fremgirls laptop, and I think I hear a woman verbally laying into the cops, but the ambient noise level sucks and she could be cussing the protestor for all I know, but if someone, ANYONE, stood up and laid into those jackboots, it'd make me feel a lot better about the situation, honestly.
No Rue, I cannot come up with a rationale for laying hands on him and threatening him in the first place, much less tasering him - and from where I sit it looks like they ambush-grabbed him without so much as a verbal warning, so it's unacceptable from start to finish.
SOP when a debate moderator cuts the mic on you is to either concede the floor, or attempt to finish your point (you've seen professional politicians do this, no one grabbed THEM and hauled em out, did they ?) and then concede the floor, and who knows, given the opportunity, the kid might have handed off.. as it was, they never even gave him the chance, they were gonna shut him up, and punish him for daring to ask some hard questions, had their minds made up to do it, and by golly they were gonna do it.
They had no right to charge him with anything, not even disorderly conduct, since any political discussion is bound to get a bit heated, and he was well within the curve in that respect.
If anyone should be charged here, it's the cops, starting with assault, and following with battery, brandishing, FELONY battery (tasering), unlawful arrest and imprisonment, kidnapping, and disorderly conduct.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:Really? That’s pretty funny, because the picture that Anthony posted, that you decided was the exact evidence that you were looking for (that I should learn from), is exactly the same picture from the site I provided you several posts up. How dumb does that make you look?
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Thanks Anthony - so that model has a taclight and no yellow tip, so you bagged the exact evidence I was asking for, zoom and cleanup on stills shows the taclight at a slightly recessed position, which is consistent with the picture you've posted.
…
Finn, if you wanna discuss something, discuss it, but acting like a shithead and throwing personal slams into everything you say just makes you look like a prat and savages your already laughable credibility - you could learn some lessons here from Anthony, although we've passionately disagreed on some points, we're discussing it instead of attacking each other - just a suggestion.
But I am glad you finally came to terms with the evidence I’d already gave you.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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From the police report
Resist officer with violence
Disturbing the peace
On the above date and time the defendant Andrew Meyer was being lawfully detained for inciting a riot and disrupting a school function
At approximately 1245 hrs., Ambassador Jett informed the audience that there would be a question and answer session and that Senator Kerry would only be answering about 6 questions, 3 on each side of the room where there were microphones set up. Senator Kerry told Ambassador Jett that he might be able to answer a couple more, time permitting. Senator Kerry was answering questions during the "question and answer stage" of his presentation when the audience was told there would only be one question left to be answered. After the question was answered, Senator Kerry stated the question and answer was over and thanked the audience for asking their questions. The approximate number of people in line asking questions was about 20, and Senator Kerry answered about 8 questions. All of the people standing in line started to dissipate and either sat back down or started to leave.
As Senator Kerry was ending his speech, a man disrupted the senator by screaming, yelling, and flailing his arms.
-----------------------------------------
By no stretch of the imagination was he even close to 'inciting a riot' nor was he 'disrupting a school function' as it was over.
So, why was there any police involvement seeing as he was doing nothing illegal or threatening ?
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:
It's amazing how much one sees what one wants to see. How many folks have watched the video and not commented on the drawn service weapon?
For one me. Didn't see it. Re-watched it, sure enough, there it is.
Anyone else miss that, and does it affect your opinion?
I agree it was not just pulled; if the officer had the weapon clearly aimed to the floor or ceiling, I'd say it was a questionable action; but to have it at chest level to the student, which means head level to some of the audience, is simply unwise to say the least. If I was Kerry, I would have hit the deck at that point; guy has some nerve anyway.
I would say the officer with the gun out at least deserves disciplinary action; and possibly separation from the force.
Blocking the exit? I didn't catch that; if true, I think that's another bad move. What if this kid 'gets away'? Clearly he's a student at the school, pick him up later if you feel the need. I do not believe he presented a general danger to the community.
Hey leadb,
I appreciate the even-handed approach you take to posting on this board in general. Your ability to question your own assumptions and change your position if you see sufficient reason to do so is, well, it's actually inspiring to me. It's a real breath of fresh air. Thanks.
In the interest of giving you a better idea of where I'm coming from, I invite you to participate in a thought experiment. I wonder what new thoughts and feelings would come to you if you reviewed the video again, only this time imagining the officers were dressed in street clothes; as if they were simply 4 human beings interacting with an unruly and obnoxious 5th human being? Is this how 4 well-armed people should behave with an unarmed and emotionally overwrought individual? Is it fair? Is it helpful?
You know the old saw: With great power comes great responsibility. Well, here are 4 people given the power of life and death over this young man, and that, to my mind, gives them tremendous responsibility to the young man in their power.
We assume that most people would be appalled to see an adult brutally hurt a child in their care. But really, that isn't necessarily true at all. Many people have been hurt terribly by their own parents, but grow up seeing the spankings or beatings or the verbal denigration as normal, even necessary 'cause they were, y'know, "little hellions."
Such people might see an adult abusing a child and feel no more empathy for that child than they do for their preadolescent selves. Once they've decided that the child "deserved" the abuse--or assumed that the child probably "deserved" the abuse--after all, only very bad people would abuse a child without good reason, and very bad people are vanishingly rare, mostly in other countries or at least other neighborhoods...
I can't help being appalled at how callous several on this board have demonstrated themselves to be toward the young man who got tased. There's now a thread featuring a video of the kid's real cries of pain at being electrocuted inserted into M.C. Hammer's "You Can't Touch This" for the sake of humor. Actual cries of human suffering are a joke to some people. And we're not talking about jokes made at the expense of a vicious dictator like Saddam Hussein, but comedy derived from the improvised punishment of a confused 20-something American boy pinned to the ground and electrocuted.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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What a day in the thread; my last post was just before work; and now I've barely caught up. I see the consensus is that the officer pulled a taser, not a service weapon. While as Frem points out, it may well have escalated the situation, it is not the incredibly 'unwise' action we first envisioned.
The second 'angle' Geezer posted was also most enlightening:
This angle makes it very clear that there was no officer posted / hanging out between the student and the exit. This removes a 2nd what to me would have been significant error on the part of the officers. It very strongly re-enforces my earlier perception the student did not want to leave; but instead wanted 'the floor'.
Frem,
I'd really like to thank you for speaking frankly on this topic; I'm not sure at the end we'll end up agreeing, but you did get me to look at this from another angle. I think you make a very good point that it is a very poor choice on the part of the police departments to permit the use of tasers which are not clearly visibly distinct from a handgun.
Quote:Thanks for the kind words. The other hard part is to then not come off as wishy washy. I hope I haven't.
Originally posted by HKCavalier:Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:
It's amazing how much one sees what one wants to see. [...]
pick him up later if you feel the need. I do not believe he presented a general danger to the community.
Hey leadb,
I appreciate the even-handed approach you take to posting on this board in general. Your ability to question your own assumptions and change your position if you see sufficient reason to do so is, well, it's actually inspiring to me. It's a real breath of fresh air. Thanks.
Quote:
In the interest of giving you a better idea of where I'm coming from, I invite you to participate in a thought experiment. I wonder what new thoughts and feelings would come to you if you reviewed the video again, only this time imagining the officers were dressed in street clothes; as if they were simply 4 human beings interacting with an unruly and obnoxious 5th human being? Is this how 4 well-armed people should behave with an unarmed and emotionally overwrought individual? Is it fair? Is it helpful?
It's a fair question... but I don't know if the answer is helpful. My first reaction would be 'Damn, I wish I had a cell phone to call the cops.' Yes, I appreciate the irony. The fact is we as a society choose to authorize our police officers to take what actions are necessary to preserve our collective rights; the trick is when does the situation cross the point where the officers are -reducing- our collective rights. Now I can tell you Frem is likely to say we've crossed that line; and I'll say I'm starting to wonder myself. The next question to ask is what is the helpful measured response to put things 'closer to right.'
Quote:Agreed; but I will also acknowledge they have other burdens to consider, including the right of the venue owner to ask to have the participant removed.
You know the old saw: With great power comes great responsibility. Well, here are 4 people given the power of life and death over this young man, and that, to my mind, gives them tremendous responsibility to the young man in their power.
Quote:
We assume that most people would be appalled to see an adult brutally hurt a child in their care. But really, that isn't necessarily true at all. Many people have been hurt terribly by their own parents, but grow up seeing the spankings or beatings or the verbal denigration as normal, even necessary 'cause they were, y'know, "little hellions."
Such people might see an adult abusing a child and feel no more empathy for that child than they do for their preadolescent selves. Once they've decided that the child "deserved" the abuse--or assumed that the child probably "deserved" the abuse--after all, only very bad people would abuse a child without good reason, and very bad people are vanishingly rare,NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Thanks HK, that's a ball I was trying to roll a bit, but I guess I didn't get it across, surely not as well as you did.
I deal with this kind of callousness almost every single day, while unsurprising, it never fails to piss me off, to paraphrase Jayne.. "How can that be right?"
No, it ain't funny - never will be, and while we're talking thought experiments, watch a couple hours of Television and jot down a mark on a notepad every time the "Humor" comes at the misery or physical pain of someone else, and you will have answered why Frem hates TV and doesn't watch it.
(And I will note, adding a damn laugh track to those moments is as unfunny as the video you mentioned, for the same reasons)
LeadB, point taken, but a weapon is still a weapon - if you point one at someone as a threat, it's a pretty extreme gesture to be taking, ponder this one - if the officer had, say, drawn his nightstick and pulled his arm back in a threatening manner, would you feel the same ? or perhaps threatened him with pepper spray ? (although if he did THAT, I am quite sure that one would be addressed in the locker room by the other two officers with wet towels!) the risks are about the same, so why are folk so accepting of a Taser when it's clearly classified by even the military as a less-lethal, rather than non-lethal, device ?
At the very least, I think we agree that a Taser should be instantly identifiable as such, and should never be constructed in a fashion that it could be mistaken as a handgun - worth pondering is the thought that from the aspect of looking right down the barrel, with that light in your face, it's not so easy to make that determination as from a 3/4 angle, brightly lit studio shot like the posted here.
On a whim I asked 10 firearm-friendly type friends (aka 'gun nuts') to call "Glock or Taser" and showed em the pics.
Eight said "Glock" - so it's not just us who took it for one.
My suggestion would be diagonal red/white or red/yellow stripes of the sort associated with "DANGER, DO NOT TOUCH!" signs as the tip and a bright blue casing - easily identifiable without losing that 'authoritarian' look they like so much.
Also, imma venture the question that you could prolly answer for me, at what angle did officer four "big scary guy" actually enter the situation ?, cause in the one and only vid I got to run, he enters the picture from down the aisle in a near direct line (at that moment) between the protestor and the exit - did he move laterally down through the seats perhaps ?
Cause if so, that is possibly what sent the protestor into total spook mode around frame 22 of my play-by-play.
I stand by my call on him entering a situation already fully under control and grabbing the guy, sending it spinning back out, however - that was way out of line.
Past a certain point I don't think there was any actual logic or reason to the protestors actions, whether he went in there with intent or not, the situation clearly spiralled way out of control in great part due to the actions of the officers - if they were gonna pick him up and haul him out, or zap him, they should have just DONE it - that constant grab and release and grab some more crap really aggravated the situation needlessly, and from a de-escalation aspect, every time the guy started to chill, they did something to freak him again, the whole of the incident smacks of indecision and incompetence on behalf of the officers in question.
And again, that's a training issue, in my opinion - and negligence by those responsible for it, you'd train a first responder in first aid, you'd teach a traffic cop basic driving safety at the very least, so any officer likely to run up against a hostile or outraged member of the public needs to know how to deal with it.
I agree with much of your assessment, especially herding him towards the exit - he was obviously scared shitless of officer number four, so put THAT guy in a line to flush him out the door - even in a situation such as that, there's a process for it, he steps, you step, let him bitch all he wants
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One of the best ways to de-escalate a situation - ask - did you have lunch today ? Do you want a sandwich ? Is there anything you need ? Can I help you with anything ? Talk with them like a human being.
Other than that, the man was holding his hands away from his body in a (blatant) sign he neither carried a weapon nor was going for one - ie he posed no threat. And I do blame the police for not knowing when they had a criminal situation on their hands that required immediate physical apprehension - or not, as the case may be. Further to characterize his actions as 'inciting a riot' and 'disrupting a school function' is mere butt-covering by poorly trained stooges who figured to make an authority happy.
I hope that man has lawyers coming out of the woodwork to help. I don't particularly want to bring grief on the University or the individual 'officers', but clearly something needs to be done so they so their job better.
As for any indication he was on private property and trespassing, I still haven't seen any actual data that he was.
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Being an asshole is not a tazerable offence.
Should it ever be, I can think of about 50 people I see on a weekly basis that would be tazered multiple times every day.
And I include myself on that list.... 
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Hey Frem...
"Also, imma venture the question that you could prolly answer for me, at what angle did officer four "big scary guy" actually enter the situation ?, cause in the one and only vid I got to run, he enters the picture from down the aisle in a near direct line (at that moment) between the protestor and the exit - did he move laterally down through the seats perhaps ?
Cause if so, that is possibly what sent the protestor into total spook mode around frame 22 of my play-by-play."
In this view, you can see officer four is -originally- between the student and the door. He -very- calmly walks down the aisle (about sec 19) and the student doesn't seem to care. He steps past the student, and gets himself between the student and the stage; probably a good thing. This clears the path to the exit and puts more 'force' between the student and the stage. He then lays hands on the kid to 'move him along'. (about sec 23) I agree this is a bad choice; consider it added to the list.
"1A - Bad choice to lay hands on him and get physical without/before even asking him to leave - I didn't see it happen, and again, if it walks like a duck..." Neither video is helpful. I only put on my list things I considered clearly substantiated by the videos; however, I'm willing to add this to the list with a 'if this happened, it was...'
"1B - Bad choice by officer four to approach a controlled situation and get aggresively physical"
I agree this is was bad choice.
To this point this angle makes it clear that the student wasn't looking for an exit; it shows they get to the top of the aisle and instead of going for the exit, the kid looks to want to make a cut over to another aisle... and -that- is when the cops start to make a clear effort to take the kid to ground.
Hindsight: cop four should have stayed at the top of the aisle... but moved out of the way of the exit (which was at the top of that aisle). The three cops had the kid moving the right way; but anchoring a position at the cross aisle, but not in way of the exit, would have kept that from being an option when the kid hits the top of the aisle.
--out of time; will check back in later to see where the discussion goes.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
One of the best ways to de-escalate a situation - ask - did you have lunch today ? Do you want a sandwich ? Is there anything you need ? Can I help you with anything ? Talk with them like a human being.
This may have been the best way to start. If the event director had walked up to Mr. Meyer after the mic was cut and calmly said "It's time to leave.", Mr. Meyer would have had the opportunity to go quietly. End of story and a non-event.
Based on Mr. Meyer's actions in the actual event, his past attention-grabbing stunts (as displayed on his website), and his ensuring that someone was videotaping, I suspect that going quietly was not on his agenda. If quietly asked to leave, I'm betting he would have either verbally or physically assaulted the event director, or rushed the stage, at which point the officers would have probably had to do pretty much the same as in the actual event.
Although the event director and officers could have probably responded better to the situation, note that we have the benefit of hindsight and endless replays and camera angles, and still have a wide difference of opinion about the best course they could have taken. In realtime those luxuries aren't available.
Mr. Meyer is also not blameless in the incident. His manner from the first was confrontational, (check some of the Youtube videos which show his actions several minutes prior to cutting the mic), which probably led the police to expect trouble. He also had several opportunities to calm down and de-escalate after the mic was cut, and did not.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Upon reflection, I've decided that the best outcome of the incident would have been as follows.
About the time Mr. Meyer makes his "sucking dick" remark, his mother comes running down the aisle.
"Andrew William Meyer!" she yells. "Who taught you to talk like that? Come here, young man!"
Mrs. Meyer then proceeds to bend Andrew William over her knee and administer a firm spanking.
"Don't spank me, Ma!" He whimpers.
She then grabs him by the earlobe and drags him up the aisle and out of the venue, muttering.
"just wait 'til your father hears about this! How could you embarass the family that way? You'll find that you're not to old to be grounded, you bad boy!"
And the crowd cheers.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Being boor is a taze-able crime.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Being boor is a taze-able crime.
You of all people had better hope not.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Being boor is a taze-able crime.
Cites please.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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"No, it ain't funny - never will be, and while we're talking thought experiments, watch a couple hours of Television and jot down a mark on a notepad every time the "Humor" comes at the misery or physical pain of someone else, and you will have answered why Frem hates TV and doesn't watch it."
Hello,
I found this, and similar sentiments, to be odd.
Most humor comes at the point of something unfortunate. Comedy has come at someone's expense from its inception. You may not like TV, but as far back as the 14th century Cantebury Tales, (just to use something I actually read) humor springs from something awful.
A more contemporary example might be the (I know you don't watch TV, but bear with me) Seinfeld show, where crippling psychological flaws cause Seinfeld and friends to experience an inability to deal with society and to socialize productively with others.
Or, if you want a literary example, try Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land. The title character spent a long time trying to figure out why humans laugh. He concluded that it was because they didn't want to cry.
And I suspect, at its heart, that's why screams of fright, pain, and showmanship combine to provide the chorus to a rap video. Because the creator wanted to lighten the mood, and other people preferred to laugh than to cry.
Nothing diabolical or sinister there, in my opinion.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:I think rue is referring to wild boor, as in wild boor hunting. But it's not a good idea to taze a wild boor though. Unless you want to risk being goored.
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Being boor is a taze-able crime.
You of all people had better hope not.
Yes. Yes I went there.
Quote:Humor has always been a way of addressing human suffering. So is tragedy for that manner, but the difference is that in a tragedy the human suffering has a tragic ending, comedy doesn’t. So a well-deserving antagonist forced to the floor and tazed while he utters arrogant comments to the police but ultimately walks away unharmed and even makes light of the event to the police afterward is fabulously funny. And even funnier when it is placed to Monty Python.
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Most humor comes at the point of something unfortunate. Comedy has come at someone's expense from its inception. You may not like TV, but as far back as the 14th century Cantebury Tales, (just to use something I actually read) humor springs from something awful.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Most people here don't seem to know what a boor is. They think it's either a mis-spelling of bore a dull person, or a mis-spelling of boar meaning a wild pig. If you don't know it, I suggest you look it up.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Upon reflection, I've decided that the best outcome of the incident would have been as follows.
About the time Mr. Meyer makes his "sucking dick" remark, his mother comes running down the aisle.
"Andrew William Meyer!" she yells. "Who taught you to talk like that? Come here, young man!"
Mrs. Meyer then proceeds to bend Andrew William over her knee and administer a firm spanking.
"Don't spank me, Ma!" He whimpers.
She then grabs him by the earlobe and drags him up the aisle and out of the venue, muttering.
"just wait 'til your father hears about this! How could you embarass the family that way? You'll find that you're not to old to be grounded, you bad boy!"
And the crowd cheers.
Now... I reckon I can't disagree with that thought.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Most people here don't seem to know what a boor is. They think it's either a mis-spelling of bore a dull person, or a mis-spelling of boar meaning a wild pig. If you don't know it, I suggest you look it up.
Is this an ad homonym attack, suggesting that 'most people here' don't understand the differing meanings of words pronounced pretty much the same, even though they may be spelled differently?
Should I bore you with my tale of looking a huge Prussian hog - a wild boar who was being a boor by acting course and rude - down the bore of my rifle? Fortunately, the animal control guy (he was a Boer from South Africa. His wife just bore him a son) came and bore him off and I didn't have to bore a hole through him.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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But boor is not pronounced either like bore or boar (which are pronounced the same) or like Boer, which, when pronounced in its native tongue is a two-syllable word.
No ad hominem, it was clearly in evidence here: "I think rue is referring to wild boor, as in wild boor hunting."
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Anthony, odd they may be, but it's my experience that I just view the world from a slightly different angle, is all - ain't nothin wrong with that, multiple viewpoints on a situation can show it clearer, or come up with solutions a single one wouldn't have.
It's not like anyone is gonna force me to watch TV, mind, so by choice I don't - I don't personally find it very funny, sure, most humor comes at someones expense, but much of what I catch from other folks viewing seems to blur or even cross the line into downright sadism, something I find pretty chilling, along with sensationalist TV stuff that brings to mind "The Running Man" as a place where it seems to be going.
One thing that kills humor of this type for me is having been on the short end of similar situations in real life - I used to find Dilbert downright hilarious, but then I married the Fremgirl, who works 8-10 hours a day in the middle-upper corporate echelons, and it went from amusing to upsetting.
I guess it stops being funny, when it starts being you.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
But boor is not pronounced either like bore or boar (which are pronounced the same) or like Boer, which, when pronounced in its native tongue is a two-syllable word.
No ad hominem, it was clearly in evidence here: "I think rue is referring to wild boor, as in wild boor hunting."
But I didn't say 'ad hominem'.
Quote:
Is this an ad homonym attack...
You might want to look up the definition of 'homonym'.
Thank you for once again verifying that you have absolutely no sense of humor.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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I have a great sense of humor when someone is actually funny. But your 'jokes' are the 'bully' kind that end up with the punch line 'what's the matter, can't you take a joke ?' Not funny at all. Just a junior-high attempt at provoking.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:I think everyone here does know what a boor is, but as Geezer has so humorous pointed out, you have no sense of humor. OR perhaps you are a bore?
Originally posted by rue:
Most people here don't seem to know what a boor is. They think it's either a mis-spelling of bore a dull person, or a mis-spelling of boar meaning a wild pig. If you don't know it, I suggest you look it up.
Not only do you have no sense of humor, but you’re entrenched with these dishonest arguments. No one has stated that rude people should be tazed. Nor was Mr. Don’t-taze-me-dude tazed for being rude, but rather for fighting with police.
But paronomasia is always funny.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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has so humorous (sic) pointed out
UUhhmm, if you're going to get picky about delivery you need to check your grammar.
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Does ANYONE have ANYTHING actually topical to contribute ? Finn, BDN, Geezer ??
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Actually I’m not picky about delivery, I was just innocently playing on a word for humorous effect. Why are you so devoid of humor!? What happened to you as a child?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Is there something we left out? It seems to me this discussion has run its course, and ended with light banter at your expense.
Originally posted by rue:
Does ANYONE have ANYTHING actually topical to contribute ? Finn, BDN, Geezer ??
And no one accused me of murdering millions of people. That’s a good thread, in my book.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Actually Rue... yes.
I been sittin here thinkin about it on my lunch break, at the moment.
(Did I mention my love of unsecured/poorly secured wireless nodes ?)
Someone above said something on the nature of he wasn't gonna go peaceably if they had asked him - and that's ate at me a bit, and the question then becomes...
Does that preclude even asking him ?
Does "He was gonna resist anyway" justify an unprovoked roughing up of a crime suspect ?
The idea that he would not have shut up and left if asked/ordered to do so is pure conjecture, as are all our assumptions above the motives of all involved, as is my counter-conjecture that the cops were looking for an incident too.
Alla that, it's prettymuch second guessing and armchair quarterbacking, completely academic in that apparently he was never given the *opportunity* to do so - so we do not KNOW, and never will, because that choice - to leave of his own power and free will, was never given or offered to him in the first place.
Everything after that moment, where they laid hands on him, becomes completely academic, and viewed from that angle, the cops are ultimately fully responsible for everything that followed, because they initiated hostilities without warning or appropriate cause.
I dunno bout the rest of you, but citizen to citizen, if you came up on my blindside as I am speaking at a public event, and laid hands on ME like that, I would kick your ass or at least give a fairly decent account of myself in the trying.
What we've been doing, is trying to determine who did what in a multi-car pileup, instead of determining the root cause of the pile-up in the first place - so step back away from the situation for a moment, and look at just that moment in time and ponder it.
That's where the blame lies, you ask me.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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And no one accused me of murdering millions of people. That’s a good thread, in my book.
So it WAS you with the water trucks and the wave machine when Noah wanted to go surfing!
Bastard!
Oh that was just toooo easy, I couldn't possibly resist, imma bad bad man, yes...
-F
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And then there's this:
Woman is Tasered Seven Times
....an attorney for the Up A Creek tavern, said a list of employees who witnessed what happened in the bar, leading to Gill being escorted out, has been turned over to investigators. He said the tavern is a respectable establishment and "they can't have people in there making a ruckus."
Quote:
Heidi Gill admits she had been drinking at a bar in Warren, Ohio, and gotten into a "disagreement" with a bartender earlier this month. But she said she didn't deserve to have a police officer use a Taser gun on her multiple times.
Video footage from the police cruiser shows Gill, 38, crawling on the ground while the officer stands over her with the stun gun. She's screaming wildly. At one point, officer Rich Kovach shoves her with his foot as she struggles.
• Taser International Inc., the company that makes the device, warns law enforcement agencies that "prolonged or continuous exposure" to the shock may lead to medical risks such as cumulative exhaustion and breathing impairment and even heart damage.
www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/26/tasered.woman/index.html
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Always look upstream.
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So apparently the police should adapt the Qui Chang Kane method of handling disruptive people; ignore all provication until it reaches the level at which deadly force is required.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Well, there is till quite a bit to discuss that's topical. The first point - no one has quite come up with a valid reason for the police to move in on the man.
Here are some examples:
AURAPTOR
I think the kid had it comin' to him, personally.
When asked to leave, he wouldn't
The student wasn't arrested for asking an annoying question ... this clown went WAY over the line in hogging the mic
he had 2 MORE questions, and that's when security was called for
JRC
then commences to get belligerent
JONGSSTRAW
the kid was being a disruptive jerk
The police and authorities cannot allow a clearly unstable hooligan to run roughshot and make demands of Kerry to answer his stupid questions
FINN MAC CUMHAL
police were there to protect freedom of speech
difference between a protestor, and an asshole throwing a tantrum
de facto eliminate all freedom of expression but their own
man was trespassing
He was being disruptive
FLETCH2
hog the mic and monopolise the time
this guy has the right to shout people down
LEADB
reasonable for the venue owner to request the student to be removed
Geezer
provication
Clearly, this man was NOT disrupting anyone's freedom of speech as both Kerry's speech and the Q & A were already over. He wasn't posing a threat. There is no evidence he was trespassing. And the police are under no obligation to remove a person from a public forum if there is no illegal act.
This man was rude, obnoxious, and loud, but not a person who needed to be physically removed by police for safety reasons.
So, anyone want to try some real answers as to why the police should have moved on him in the first place ?
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Hi FremD
Shadow dancing. So someone has made up a name for it. I've done it many times. I guess that's one of the bennies of living in a bad locale, you learn all sorts of odd things.
drug addled patient wanders from emergency psych down the hall in the direction of the door
'you guys got anything here'?
me, moving to the door to block entry and hide co-workers actions (all of whom are at least a foot and a half shorter than me)
'no, we're not the pharmancy'
patient 'casually' attemps to look past shoulder
'don't you have chemicals?'
me, moving to block his view
'just like bleach and salt and stuff' (and lots of expensive equipment for specialized testing, but, no matter ...)
patient, no longer quite able to be cool, fidgets with hands, tries to sidestep
'where's your security? you got no security?'
me (still blocking view of co-workers on phone to police desk at entry)
'yeah, this is a county hopital, we got county police'
patient (losing it)
'you know I could be killing you ... or something'
me (assessing no weapon and an better than even match - planting feet - subtle 'just try me' attitude style) ...
patient wanders off as ...
police come thundering in the back door
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sometimes all you have to do is stall them at the pass ...
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Geezer
provication
Actually more like 'deliberate provocation, attempting to elicit a confrontation, probably physical.' I might also characterize it as 'looking for trouble'.
But tell me, Rue. Did you have any problem at all with Mr. Meyer's actions? Was he totally blameless, in your opinion?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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As blameless as any loudmouth in the public square - which is, blameless.
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___________
| JOHN 3:16 |
|_________|
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
As blameless as any loudmouth in the public square - which is, blameless.
So even if he intended to start a physical confrontation, still blameless?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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That wasn't the case.
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Quote:Absolutely not; and concurrence with that position is the main reason I spent the time I did trying to work out what mistakes the officers may have made.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Actually Rue... yes.
I been sittin here thinkin about it on my lunch break, at the moment.
(Did I mention my love of unsecured/poorly secured wireless nodes ?)
Someone above said something on the nature of he wasn't gonna go peaceably if they had asked him - and that's ate at me a bit, and the question then becomes...
Does that preclude even asking him ?
Does anyone disagree that 'The student should have been asked to leave?' (Granting that perhaps he was; but to date I haven't seen anything that supports he was.)
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Quote:Ok, I'm willing to amend (and I believe I did) that it was probably unwise for the venue owner to make the request, but within his legal right. I believe I also asked if anyone had firm understanding of the case law. Are you confident the venue owner did not have the legal right to have a disruptive attendee removed. In this case, disruptive in as much as Kerry had not left the stage and was still talking (and actually attempting to answer the question put to him).
Originally posted by rue:
[ ... ]
LEADB
reasonable for the venue owner to request the student to be removed
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I'm surprised no one commented on the CNN footage. Here we have an "officer" who on the one hand is yelling at this lady to stay down and on the other hand is continuously tasing her. And all she's trying to do is crawl away. Tell me if you're getting zapped every three seconds or so, you gonna lie still??? I DON'T THINK SO!
The Taser just seems to have become the all-purpose tool for countering resistance of ANY kind, whether or not the person presents a threat and whether or not the taser itself is provoking the resistance.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:Actually I see quite a number of people who have come up with valid reasons. Enough for me to consider that issue closed, anyway. He was rude and disruptive and the Director asked that he be removed. That’s sufficient for security to demand him to leave.
Originally posted by rue:
Well, there is till quite a bit to discuss that's topical. The first point - no one has quite come up with a valid reason for the police to move in on the man.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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LeadB
This was a student public affair at a state university - not a private speech in a privately-owned setting.
http://media.www.browndailyherald.com/media/storage/paper472/news/2007
/09/26/CampusWatch/U.Of-Florida.Tasing.Incident.Garnering.National.Attention-2992542.shtml
"On Sept. 17, University of Florida student Andrew Meyer was tasered as he and his classmates listened to a forum address by Senator John Kerry, D-Mass.
Florida Department of Law Enforcement will conduct an independent investigation of the incident"
Kerry was invited to speak by the Student Government's Accent Speakers' Bureau
http://sg.ufl.edu/accent/whatisaccent.htm
ACCENT Speaker's Bureau is the largest, student-run, speaker's bureau in the nation.
As an agency of Student Government, the ACCENT Chair is directly supervised by the Student Body President.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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"rude and disruptive"
But not physically threatening or doing anything illegal. Like I said, the police need better training to know when they have a legal basis for action.
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www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/18/student.tasered.ap/index.html?iref=mpstoryvi
ew
This is a little clearer.
They did NOT ask the student to leave b4 they grabbed him.
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:Well, actually the police did ask him to leave. According to the incident report, Officer Mallo informed Meyer that she wanted to speak with him outside. She was even gracious enough to offer Meyer the opportunity to ask his question to Kerry. But of course Meyer was intent on abusing this leniency.
Originally posted by leadb:
Does anyone disagree that 'The student should have been asked to leave?' (Granting that perhaps he was; but to date I haven't seen anything that supports he was.)
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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I can't hear it in the video, can yu?
What I see is that they touched him, and THEN she repeated something several times. Hard to hear what she said. I have a couple of possible interpretations but I don't want to bias.
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:Physically threatening is debatable, but the police don’t need to wait, nor necessarily should they, until he starts directly threatening violence on other people. And the police had every legal right to remove him. In fact, the mistake that I see the police made was being too nice. As soon as Meyer starting resisting, they should have pulled him to the ground and demanded his compliance with sharply and loudly, if he did not comply immediately he should have been tased then and there. The police should never have allowed him to control the arrest long enough to drag the police up and down the aisle.
Originally posted by rue:
But not physically threatening or doing anything illegal. Like I said, the police need better training to know when they have a legal basis for action.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:I don’t know. I didn’t hear it the first few times I watched it and I’m tired of watching so I’m not going to search for it right now. But I’m not surprised that I didn’t hear it. There was a lot of noise and I doubt any of the microphones were designed to pick up a whole lot. It's in the police report, and I have little to no reason to believe the police are lying.
Originally posted by SignyM:
I can't hear it in the video, can yu?
I watched the new video you just posted and I can hear a female voice saying what sounds like what Officer Mallo claimed to say in the incident report. It's hard to hear her over Meyer's disruptive and pejorative comments.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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So mean while what about this video of a woman who is desperately crawling to get away while an "officer of the law" contiuously tasers her?
www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/26/tasered.woman/index.html#cnnSTCVideo
Do YOU think you would "stay down" if someone was zapping you every couple of seconds?? NOT BLOODY LIKELY!
Quote:That's the advantage of the cnn video: it was taken from the FRONT of the room where all the mikes are, and where they first laid hands on this kid.
There was a lot of noise and I doubt any of the microphones were designed to pick up a whole lot.
Quote:PPFFFWWAAAHHH!! GAAAAK! You ARE kidding, right?
It's in the police report, and I have little to no reason to believe the police are lying.
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:No. I am not.
Originally posted by SignyM:
PPFFFWWAAAHHH!! GAAAAK! You ARE kidding, right?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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SignyM
the reason why the pro-taser perves aren't talking about the woman being tased is b/c they're jacking-off over it.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
SignyM
the reason why the pro-taser perves aren't talking about the woman being tased is b/c they're jacking-off over it.
Elegantly put as always Rue.
I personally do not see the relevance of Signy's scenario. It has nothing to do with this case, IMHO. Perhaps I should link some instances where the use of a taser saved lives. Would that change your mind?
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Finn
"According to the incident report, Officer Mallo informed Meyer that she wanted to speak with him outside." And what are you going to believe - a cya report or your own lying ears ?
"police don’t need to wait, nor necessarily should they, until he starts directly threatening violence on other people." Really ? Then what should they respond to ? The way he cuts his hair ? Whether or not he wears glasses ?
I'm really curious, b/c you seem to think that being somewhat loud and verbose (certainly not angry or threatening) and being impolite is a good enough reason.
Actually, never mind. I think your whole mindset is there for all to see: "Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system." Yeah, democracy and freedom suck, don't they ?
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Hello,
In regards to the woman being tased repeatedly while trying to get up: Please start a new topic on this subject, as the two incidents are completely independent of each other. We have been trying to dissect the Kerry incident, and I've no doubt we can have a seperate 100 response analysis of the other incident in a separate thread. I have not even glanced at the link because it has no bearing on the specifics of this case, and I'm trying to stay on-focus and on-topic in this thread.
In regards to the Kerry Kid not being warned - He was asked to relinquish the mic and loudly refused, demanding to ask his question. He then proceeded to ask his question(s) and make his statement(s). Then his mic was cut off and he complained loudly about that. Perhaps they should have asked a second time for him to relinquish the mic, and made it clear that there would be physical consequences (removal) for failing to comply, before the officers actually flanked him and started to escort him out. I will say that if I were the officers on scene, I would have clearly explained the consequences for non-compliance before advancing on the subject. I have no evidence that any officers did so. If they did, it's not audible on any video I've seen.
Once the situation devolved into resisted physical restraint, I still feel the taser was the safest way to secure the subject.
However, I completely understand and sympathise with the position of those who do not think the taser was necessary or recommended. I hope a similar argument takes place at the University, and I hope a compromise policy can be reached about the use of force in the future. A good policy would do its best to ensure the safety of both officers and subjects in these situations. A good policy would not force officers into unnecessary physical grappling events, but also make clear rules about warning a subject of law violation and potential consequence before ANY physical contact occurs if at all possible.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:Whatever its relevance, it seems to be suppressing rue’s intelligence.
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
I personally do not see the relevance of Signy's scenario. It has nothing to do with this case, IMHO. Perhaps I should link some instances where the use of a taser saved lives. Would that change your mind?
I’m not very sure that we are going to be able to have an intelligent discussion on this new taser incident. It was all I could do to keep from being accused of wanting to beat baby seals in the other two, and rue is already defining the irrational atmosphere of this discussion.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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I understand the impulse to be moderate. But it's not a reasonable approach in this instance.
No matter how many times I watch, how many different angles - the student was not either being a threat or doing anything illegal. At the worst he was loud, slighly crude and verbose.
In a supposedly free society where the mentally ill are left to fend for themselves b/c they can't legally be taken into custody - is police force the appropriate response to impoliteness ?
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Finn
I think the irrational atmosphere was set early on with this, to which you amazingly seem to have no objection:
"I cannot imagine why anybody would ever appear to be a threat to Kerry. Since the guy has never really taken any firm positions on anything, why would anybody have a problem with him? What was his speech about.....voting against military spending perhaps? He doesn't ever vote to spend a dime for our military, so no surprise there...he'd rather vote to spend taxpayer money on whatever his big union donors tell him to...not that there's anything wrong with that, but Kerry is such a Senate blob, a transluscent piece of protoplasmic flotsom, it's really hard to grasp what the kid was tasered for."
or maybe it was this
"I think anyone that goes to a Kerry rally should be tased....regardless if they are pro or con Kerry...fucking think about it......"
or perhaps you mean this
"I think the real tragedy of this situation is that all the electrical current that was wasted on this kid could have been better used if it had directed at Kerry's re-charge bolts in his neck as was the original plan....that's the real reason the cops had tasers with them....to re-charge Kerry in case he ran out of juice during the event. I hope he made it home ok without a fresh-up zap, and I hope Theresa had enough reserve juice in her neck bolts to share some voltage with her loving husband."
Yeah - let's have a BIG complaint about irrational discussion.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
That wasn't the case.
Looking at the videos which showed all of Mr. Meyer's actions, not just those after the mic was turned off, he was aggressive, confrontational, and not responsive to earlier attempts by event staff (not the cops) to request calmer conduct.
In many situations similar to this, violence initiated by the aggressive, confrontational (let's call it A/C) person ensues. Law enforcement is pretty much forced to assume worst-case scenario, or else just be standing around when the A/C person becomes violent and injures someone.
Is it your opinion that the police on the scene shouldn't do anything until someone gets hurt? You didn't seem to have any problem with police arriving quickly when you were confronted with a drugged-out but non-violent patient. Should the event staff at the Kerry function have less protection?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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I my case the person WAS threatening me and my staff. Perhaps you missed the physical move in to try to get past me through the door into a secure area, and the verbal threat "I could be killing you ... or something."
The student was doing neither. Not physically or verbally threatening ANYONE. Please, find me an instance before the police moved in to physically manhandle him.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:'ACCENT shows are always free and open to the public' That helps clarify. I will concede I do not know the law; if the Accent who arranged reservation of the room, scheduled the event with Kerry, etc. has no right to enforce the terms of the presentation / debate, then you are right; however, I would hope someone might know the actual law rather than my best guess. Anyone?
Originally posted by rue:
LeadB
This was a student public affair at a state university - not a private speech in a privately-owned setting.
http://media.www.browndailyherald.com/media/storage/paper472/news/2007
/09/26/CampusWatch/U.Of-Florida.Tasing.Incident.Garnering.National.Attention-2992542.shtml
"On Sept. 17, University of Florida student Andrew Meyer was tasered as he and his classmates listened to a forum address by Senator John Kerry, D-Mass.
Florida Department of Law Enforcement will conduct an independent investigation of the incident"
Kerry was invited to speak by the Student Government's Accent Speakers' Bureau
http://sg.ufl.edu/accent/whatisaccent.htm
ACCENT Speaker's Bureau is the largest, student-run, speaker's bureau in the nation.
As an agency of Student Government, the ACCENT Chair is directly supervised by the Student Body President.
If it is true that Accent did not have the right to request his removal, then I have to agree the officers are on very thin ice in initiating the removal.
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