UF student tased at John Kerry speech
POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Friday, September 28, 2007 12:10
VIEWED: 27394
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Kerry watches on as innocent man is TORTURED! Well, that's the sort of headline we'd expect, if it was Bush or some other GOP/Conservative giving the speech and a student was treated that way.
I think the kid had it comin' to him, personally. Y'all watch and decide for yourself.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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yeah, very grey area.
Haven't made up my mind. where I get my news somebody had been there and made his own video. He said the kid had already been chased by the cops trying to get in to ask a question, so I guess he wasn't supposed to be there, whatever the hell that means.
Kerry was hands off. He made a weak gesture to tell them to let him ask the question, but then deferred. Part of me screams, what the fuck is wrong with you Kerry! But part of me wonders if he deferred because he thought weighing in when he didn't neccesarily have all the facts was a bad call.
Still, nothing I like about the whole thing. And at the point of questioning the kid was agressive, but seemed to be no threat to anybody, and had not pushed to the point of disruptiveness to the q&a yet, as far as I can tell.
the cops intervened early, it would seem, to a fault.
Kerry went on to answer the quetion, which is a kind of bizarro split the baby way to handle it. Not taht I know what he should have done. I think I would have asked over the mic for somebody to come over when they get a chance and explain to me what just happened and why...heh, and then proceeded to answer the question.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I think the kid had it comin' to him, personally. Y'all watch and decide for yourself.
I found the whole incident shocking. (Somebody had to say it.)
I note for the record that as a Prosecutor I appreciate the taser for what it is. Having an officer in the back of the room with his taser has often been very useful as a deterrent to keep unruly defendants in line.
And getting tased is no laughing matter. However, watching someone get tased is HI-larious.
H
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I cannot imagine why anybody would ever appear to be a threat to Kerry. Since the guy has never really taken any firm positions on anything, why would anybody have a problem with him? What was his speech about.....voting against military spending perhaps? He doesn't ever vote to spend a dime for our military, so no surprise there...he'd rather vote to spend taxpayer money on whatever his big union donors tell him to...not that there's anything wrong with that, but Kerry is such a Senate blob, a transluscent piece of protoplasmic flotsom, it's really hard to grasp what the kid was tasered for.
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Did ya catch the kid's question about Kerry being part of a " secret society " ? Too gorram funny. He was a nutter, through and through, and was TRYING to be disagreeable, in hopes he'd make the news. It was an obvious stunt, " don't throw me in the briar patch! " routine.
Friggin whack job.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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What a wuss!!! He's trying to *ask a question* (yea right. more like forcing his conspiracy ideas on everybody else in a public forum), then commences to get belligerent, then starts fighting with the cops, then starts yelping "HELP HELP", then starts crying like a little girl!! After being warned repeatedly by the woman officer too. The cops probably moved in on orders from a Kerry minion. Also, did you hear some other female nutjob in the background yelling, "police brutality!!" Puh-lease
Another conspiracy nut, this time trying to grill a Democrat, then HE gets "grilled"!!
Rule #1: Don't fight with the cops, ESPECIALLY when one of them is about 6'5'' and looks like he weighs around 250!!! He had it coming, IMNSHO.
Everyone dies alone.
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Yeah, I mean, I don't really understand why they tazed him because it seems like they had him on the ground. He may have been trying to fight them off, but there were enough officers that he wouldn't have been able to & would have exhausted himself trying. Then the handcuffing would be easy.
Then again, I've never been a security person in any way...
But yeah, it was a "Q&A," not a "Diatribe time." To quote the brilliant Bugs Bunny, "What a maroon!"
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I think anyone that goes to a Kerry rally should be tased....regardless if they are pro or con Kerry...fucking think about it......
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1) Under the circumstances, a tazer was not warranted. Am I to believe that all of those officers couldn't find a better way to restrain one scrawney little college kid who probably spends all day playing WOW and trying to get his "secret society" blog posts on digg.com?
The tazer was meant to shut him up abruptly, and was not used because he posed any physical threat to himself, the audience or the police. (Which supposedly, is the only circumstance in which an officer is authorized to use one)
2) Tazers should be outlawed period. Law abiding citizens are not afraid of police because they can be reasonably sure that they will not be shot by police with a gun unless they are committing a SERIOUS crime, however, any cop can just shoot any civilian with a tazer on a whim.
The tazer is no more than a tool of fear.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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I'm not sure how a taser works, but from the demonstrations I've seen, any person hit with a taser will immediately hit the ground, totally incapacitated. This guy gets zapped, and he lets out a few girly-yells. Maybe the cops can adjust the voltage on their tasers, and in this case, gave him just enough to "persuade" him to shut the hell up. Bottom line tho, the cops were called in by either Kerry's people or whoever was in charge of the festivities to get him away from the mic, he's still fighting the cops while he's on the ground, still resisting. Which means zap!!
Everyone dies alone.
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Quote:My guess is that he wasn’t submitting, and officers don’t want to sit there on the floor holding some loon down all day until he finally passes out from sheer stupidity. And after that 50,000 volts passed through his butt, he realized the hard way that in the real world no one cares about his tantrums. It could have been worse. He could have been born 50 years earlier and pulled this stunt – then he would have gotten the snot beat out of him with batons.
Originally posted by TVChick:
Yeah, I mean, I don't really understand why they tazed him because it seems like they had him on the ground. He may have been trying to fight them off, but there were enough officers that he wouldn't have been able to & would have exhausted himself trying. Then the handcuffing would be easy.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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The censored questions:
Quote:
1. Why did you take a dive in the 2004 election, that you won, according to BBC's Greg Palast? (Kerry said he read Palast's book)
2. Why are you a member of Skull & Bones secret society with Bush Jr? (The Brotherhood of Death)
3. Why don't you Democrats impeach Jr Bush? (Doh!)
3 very simple questions that Kerry can NEVER answer. Hence his support for torture, waterboarding, rape, murder, summary execution and genocide, without trial, without counsel, without appeal, including for US citizens.
On CNN, a female student who was there pointed out that he could not ask his questions calmly, because assholes were assaulting him during his questions. She added that he was leaving the room when he was assaulted again, and he was Tasered after he was on the ground surrounded by 7 cops.
Smart tough kid, but lucky he didn't die by heart attack.
He will go down in history for the new catchphrase: "Don't Taze me bro!"
PS: Kid will win at least $50,000 in damages for his 5-minutes of democracy.
In 2000, I "confronted" loony drug-addicted law professor RFK Jr, at University of Tennessee in Knoxville. It was an unannounced lecture, so I didn't have much time to prepare my questions in my rush to the meeting. So he tried to rip my head off in the lecture hall while I prefaced my question, which is what he's trained to do. But I hung in there and asked my question. Afterwards, I handed him a large 3-ring folder with evidence of govt corruption in the garbage, scrap metal, car-theft and nuke-waste cartel HQed in Knoxville, that I had 2 class actions against. When I handed him videotapes of Bohemian Grove and 9/11, he looked crestfallen, and he knew exactly what it was...
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Good questions.
BTW Kerry and Bush both belonged to the Skull & Bones Society at . I'm not sure that counts as a "secret society" or that it has any bearing in their behavior today. Bush started out being a rich boy, Kerry became less anti-establishment as the drip drip drip of privilege and money wore away his principles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_and_Bones
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White House has now released its handbook for its covert operatives, on how to attack any citizens who get uppity and want to ask real questions at public meetings. That strategy sounded exactly like what happened here.
Quote:
The "Presidential Advance Manual," dated October 2002 with the stamp "Sensitive -- Do Not Copy," was released under subpoena to the American Civil Liberties Union as part of a lawsuit filed on behalf of two people arrested for refusing to cover their anti-Bush T-shirts at a Fourth of July speech at the West Virginia State Capitol in 2004. The techniques described have become familiar over the 6 1/2 years of Bush's presidency, but the manual makes it clear how organized the anti-protest policy really is.
www.startribune.com/587/story/1395726.html
DOWNLOAD MANUAL -- HEAVILY REDACTED:
www.aclu.org/freespeech/protest/30265res20070628.html
The question that triggered the final attack on the Florida student was his question about IMPEACHING BUSH.
You can bet the Florida student council running this meeting for Kerry, are run by secret societies, and they take death oaths to keep those societies secret, especially when they're official franchises of Skull & Bones.
The added Taser treatment is just 24 Hours of Gitmo come home to roost.
Note that by "demonstrators", the Bush White House includes ARREST of all presidential candidates and nominees, such as ordering the arrest of Green Party nominee Ralph Nader in 2000 (Nader sued the off-duty state trooper and university), and arrest of the Libertarian and Green Party nominees, and arrest of Republican presidential candidate John "Prescott Bush Is A Nazi" Buchanan in 2004.
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BTW- It just seems to me that tasering someone while being a "sergeant at arms" is unnecessary and excessive. It's like using a taser when little Johnny won't shut up in class. Much as the teacher might LIKE to taser a few students it is excessive to the situation. The guy was guilty of nothing more than mouthing off. He wasn't a criminal suspect, he wasn't "resisting arrest", and he posed no threat to anyone. It was just the cops grabbing the most convenient tool to save themselves from getting their uniforms sweaty.
Back in the other thread someone asked about feeling threatened when exercising freedom of speech? Here's an example of why people might not speak out: excessive force applied by authoritarian response
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Quote:Links please?
Note that by "demonstrators", the Bush White House includes ARREST of all presidential candidates and nominees, such as ordering the arrest of Green Party nominee Ralph Nader in 2000 (Nader sued the off-duty state trooper and university), and arrest of the Libertarian and Green Party nominees, and arrest of Republican presidential candidate John "Prescott Bush Is A Nazi" Buchanan in 2004
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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I've seen the video several times...the kid was being a disruptive jerk. He most definitely resisted arrest, or resisted being escorted out of the venue. Screaming that you've done nothing wrong while continuing to fight to escape the grasp of the police is clearly resisting arrest. Now...why they tasered him when they had him on the ground is a whole different subject...seems to me they could have been able to cuff him & remove him, but they went for the taser...a move which will likely cost them their jobs, and the taxpayers of Florida millions in 'damages'.
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Okay, he was a "disruptive jerk". Does that warrant being tasered? What about the kid who's screaming bloody murder on a plane? The great-grandma who fails to water her lawn? www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/19/lawn.dispute.ap/index.html You should match the force to the situation.
Just because you have a taser hanging on your belt and you're pissed off at someone doesn't mean you should use it.
So- Were they trying to arrest him or escort him out of the building? And if they were trying to arrest him, what was the charge? Using more than his allotted time to speak?
This is the kind of thinking that creates "freedom of speech" zones: chain-linked "approved demonstration" areas a half-mile away from the media where you can say anything you want because nobody will hear you.
Quote:
When Bush travels around the United States, the Secret Service visits the location ahead of time and orders local police to set up “free speech zones” or “protest zones” where people opposed to Bush policies (and sometimes sign-carrying supporters) are quarantined. These zones routinely succeed in keeping protesters out of presidential sight and outside the view of media covering the event.
When Bush came to the Pittsburgh area on Labor Day 2002, 65-year-old retired steel worker Bill Neel was there to greet him with a sign proclaiming, “The Bush family must surely love the poor, they made so many of us.” The local police, at the Secret Service’s behest, set up a “designated free-speech zone” on a baseball field surrounded by a chain-link fence a third of a mile from the location of Bush’s speech. The police cleared the path of the motorcade of all critical signs, though folks with pro-Bush signs were permitted to line the president’s path. Neel refused to go to the designated area and was arrested for disorderly conduct; the police also confiscated his sign. Neel later commented, “As far as I’m concerned, the whole country is a free speech zone. If the Bush administration has its way, anyone who criticizes them will be out of sight and out of mind.”
www.amconmag.com/12_15_03/feature.html
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Always look upstream.
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The charges could have been :
disorderly conduct
failure to obey the police
resisting arrest
Now...it's all negotiable with this kid...who apparently has a history of this sort of behavior....just another loony-left freak who STILL hasn;t gotton past the election loss to Bush. Big picture here...this incident will pass in time, maybe he'll get money and/or fame, maybe not...but he will always be an immature fucking idiot in perpetual denial of reality, and one who has shown the whole world (again!) how violently dangerous the demented left is in America.
And....about the tasering ...Kerry is a national figure, a Senator, and an ex-Presidential candidate..ie a heavyweight in the political arena. The police and authorities cannot allow a clearly unstable hooligan to run roughshot and make demands of Kerry to answer his stupid questions...the police MUST assume him to be a real threat to Senator Kerry & they acted appropriately. If it had been President Kerry speaking, this kid would never have even been allowed on the campus that day.
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Quote:
Originally posted by JRC:
I'm not sure how a taser works, but from the demonstrations I've seen, any person hit with a taser will immediately hit the ground, totally incapacitated.
Generally thats true. I just had a Preliminary Hearing with a fella that took five taser shots and kept coming. Eventually took five cops to get him down one of whom was badly injured. But he was on something.
H
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Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
3 very simple questions that Kerry can NEVER answer.
I note for the record that Kerry did answer the questions after the fella was dragged away.
It may not have been a good answer, or a complete answer, or the answer your looking for, but it was an answer.
H
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wow, that was pretty scary. Right there is why this country is the shit hole that it is, because anyone that asks a question outside of the "talking points" gets tased
I understand that he was resisting arrest a little at first, tho why he was being arrested in the first place I still don't understand, but then when they threatened to tase him, he said he would leave peacefully, they didn't have to go through with it, the threat was enough, and yet they did it anyway, those cops all need to be fired, if not arrested themselves.
"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."
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Quote:
Originally posted by EvilDinosaur:
wow, that was pretty scary. Right there is why this country is the shit hole that it is, because anyone that asks a question outside of the "talking points" gets tased
I understand that he was resisting arrest a little at first, tho why he was being arrested in the first place I still don't understand, but then when they threatened to tase him, he said he would leave peacefully, they didn't have to go through with it, the threat was enough, and yet they did it anyway, those cops all need to be fired, if not arrested themselves.
Watch the first part of the video again. This guy was filibustering w/ his " questions " , and had gone well over the alotted time. When asked to leave, he wouldn't. When the cops came to simply escort him out, he got even more animated. He wasn't being arrested, ( at that point ) but simply shown the door. The student refused every attempt to yield the mic, to step down and to basically calm the hell down. It's clear to me that he WANTED to force some sort of issue here, and make a scene. Either way, when he was surrounded by cops, he wasn't listening to what they were saying. He wouldn't calm down, he'd ask if he was being arrested, and then would go off on his ' help! help!' routine and not even bother to listen to the cops. When he was down on the ground, he continued to struggle. While saying he'd cooperate, he'd start right up and resist the cops AGAIN! All they wanted to do was restrain him ( cuff him ) enough to get him out of the hall. He simply wasn't having any of it.
It 'may' be note worthy that several of the cops were female officers. This 'kid' wasn't some scrawny geek, but was much taller and heavier than many of the female cops, which may have hindered their abilty to handle him while he was on the ground. Regardless, he was shown the taser, and briefly said he'd comply. That lasted for all of 1-2 seconds, and he started struggling AGAIN! At that point, it's fair to say the cops had had enough of his antics and zapped him. I suppose they did that instead of used pepper spray because it was an enclosed area, and were dealing with just one person. They could have broken out their batons, but that might have made matters worse.
The cops did the right thing, imo, though the may need further training in subduing a hostile individual.
Quite frankly, the whole affair reminds me of scene 3 from MP&The Holy Grail, between King Arthur and Dennis.
Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:Of course the charges 'could have" been a lot of things, but what were they? Any?
The charges could have been :
disorderly conduct
failure to obey the police
resisting arrest
Quote:Violent? Dangerous? PUHLEEZ! Apparently you've never confronted real violence or danger or you would have never said that.
how violently dangerous the demented left is in America.
HE was yelling. The cops were tasing. Who was more dangerous?
Quote:I saw the video. It was clear from the beginning the only "weapon" this guy had was a microphone. Annoying? You bet! Rude? Hectoring? Absolutely. Having a hissy fit? YEP. Dangerous? Not at all.
the police MUST assume him to be a real threat to Senator Kerry
BY the way: This kid COULD be Mal in an Alliance bar. So, how many of you like Firefly?
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As far as freedom of speech is concerned this jackass’s principle motive was to eliminate everyone else’s freedom of speech. He was hogging the forum by repeatedly asking questions that he believed Kerry couldn’t answer – thereby making sure that no one could exercise their freedom of speech, which was the purpose of this function. And he could accomplish this in at least two ways. He could hog the mic with stupid questions or he could throw a huge fit in the back and derail the whole event for the duration of its time. Either way, what gives him the right to prevent everyone else from speaking? Should someone do this at every political speech where a speaker they don’t agree with is speaking? Is this the kind of gestopo debating tactic that should become common place in our political forums?
The police were there to protect freedom of speech – and from what I saw they did everything right. They tried to peacefully remove him. When that didn’t work they tried to forcibly remove him. When that didn’t work, they called his bluff, and tazed him.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:I agree on everything except the tasing part. So speaking of gestapo...
As far as freedom of speech is concerned this jackass’s principle motive was to eliminate everyone else’s freedom of speech. He was hogging the forum by repeatedly asking questions that he believed Kerry couldn’t answer – thereby making sure that no one could exercise their freedom of speech, which was the purpose of this function. And he could accomplish this in at least two ways. He could hog the mic with stupid questions or he could throw a huge fit in the back and derail the whole event for the duration of its time. Either way, what gives him the right to prevent everyone else from speaking? Should someone do this at every political speech where a speaker they don’t agree with is speaking? Is this the kind of gestopo speaking tactic that should become common place in our political forums?
And please don't say my comparison is overblown because YOU brought it up.
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huh
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Quote:What?
Originally posted by SignyM:
And please don't say my comparison is overblown because YOU brought it up.
I don’t know what some people think the police are here for, but it’s not to be nurturing parental figures to disruptive jackasses. It’s extremely difficult to arrest someone who is perpetually resisting arrest. In the past, this kid would probably have gotten beat with fists or batons, or possibly even shot, since without non-lethal means of control, police would more often draw their firearms. Today he gets an essentially harmless electric shock.
I suppose we could go to the Gestapo police tactics and beat him silly with batons then take him out back and shoot him, but that seems excessive.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Here's some updated information:
The two campus police were put on leave after the incident and the University has called for an investigation into campus police tactics. Sounds damning, but when you realize that this guy is sounding more and more like a sensationalist hack, they may be just protecting themselves from further jackassry.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,297287,00.html
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/18/student.tasered/index.html
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Campus 'Security' tasering students with little or no excuse is already an acknowledged problem.
http://www.ala.org/ala/alonline/currentnews/newsarchive/2006abc/novemb
er2006a/uclataser.cfm
Yeah, the guy was being a jackass, no he didn't deserve tasering.
I have the feeling that b/c it's supposed to be non-lethal it gets used where it's not appropriate. One of my coworkers was tasered after police busted his door down in the middle of the night and woke him up. In his half-asleep state he didn't comply quickly enough with the police and got three tasers to the chest. It turned out to be a mistaken tip.
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Quote:
Originally posted by EvilDinosaur:
I understand that he was resisting arrest a little at first, tho why he was being arrested in the first place I still don't understand, but then when they threatened to tase him, he said he would leave peacefully, they didn't have to go through with it, the threat was enough, and yet they did it anyway, those cops all need to be fired, if not arrested themselves.
I disagree. The student had an obligation to obey lawful instructions to cease he disturbance (he refused), to calm down (he kept shouting), to hold still (he was struggling), to relax his arms so he could be safely cuffed (he was pulling away), to comply with officers orders or he would be tased (he was still struggling, pushing, pulling, fighting, resisting, and shouting).
I've seen it happen in a number of circumstances. I've seen guys fighting for their life stop dead and go meek as a mouse once the taser comes out. I've seen them fight just as hard right up till they get hit. We even have a video of a guy who got tased that was pleading not to be tased while refusing to relinquish his knife or stop fighting. Happens. Taser is non-lethal and leaves no serious injury, thats a heck of a lot better then an officer using a baton.
H
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I think the kid had it comin' to him, personally. Y'all watch and decide for yourself.Quote:
Absolutely, God knows that every instance of FREE SPEECH is punishable by being arrested and tasering.
This is frustrating beyond measure. Because he was asking Kerry irritating questions he was arrested. What is especially disgusting is when he offered to leave the meeting, the "cops" (I use that word in quotations to separate these 6 or 7 morons who can't seem to handle a situation in which there an angry college student yelling at someone from the hundreds of public servants who risk their lives everyday) decided to taser him instead. They should be fired immediately if they know no other way to diffuse the situation. God forbid someone else would have stepped in to help, that person would probably have been shot on the spot.
I've never said this in my life, but I sincerely hope the ACLU is all over this.
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I think the real tragedy of this situation is that all the electrical current that was wasted on this kid could have been better used if it had directed at Kerry's re-charge bolts in his neck as was the original plan....that's the real reason the cops had tasers with them....to re-charge Kerry in case he ran out of juice during the event. I hope he made it home ok without a fresh-up zap, and I hope Theresa had enough reserve juice in her neck bolts to share some voltage with her loving husband.
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milford, get your facts straight before you post again. The student wasn't arrested for asking an annoying question. They were at a structured Q and A where this clown went WAY over the line in hogging the mic. Folks were APPLAUDING when he was asked to ceed the mic, and cops were there to escort him out of the event. He refused. Instead, he acted more of an ass, and only flamed the situation further. If you watch the video, he was shown the taser to let him know the cops weren't kidding. The female officer tells him to clam down and he'll be escorted out.She says he won't be tasered if he cooperates. He does,for like no time at all. He keeps on resisting, shouting and, as they promised, they tased his whiny ass. Good for them.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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This was all about the personal pride of the cops.
People who are way out of line with a mic are not a danger and should not be tasered.
They tasered him for shouting and whining. He was already in their control and no threat to anyone. It's an annoyance issue, not a safety issue.
People aren't televisions, and tasers are not mute buttons.
"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."
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Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
This was all about the personal pride of the cops.
People who are way out of line with a mic are not a danger and should not be tasered.
They tasered him for shouting and whining. He was already in their control and no threat to anyone. It's an annoyance issue, not a safety issue.
People aren't televisions, and tasers are not mute buttons.
"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."
You're right. A couple of quick knocks to the noggin w/ a night stick and the fellah would be out like a light.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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A University of California at Los Angeles student was repeatedly stunned with an electronic Taser by campus police officers November 14 at the UCLA Powell Library....But witnesses told the November 16 Los Angeles Times that Tabatabainejad was on his way out of the library when police forcibly stopped him. In the roughly six-minute video, Tabatabainejad’s screams of pain are clearly audible, as is his shout, “Here’s your Patriot Act, here’s your fucking abuse of power.” The video also captures patrons asking for the officers’ badge numbers, as well as a patron being told to move away from an officer “or you’re going to get Tasered, too.”
'Cause we're the POlice. And we got the tasers.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
A University of California at Los Angeles student was repeatedly stunned with an electronic Taser by campus police officers November 14 at the UCLA Powell Library....But witnesses told the November 16 Los Angeles Times that Tabatabainejad was on his way out of the library when police forcibly stopped him. In the roughly six-minute video, Tabatabainejad’s screams of pain are clearly audible, as is his shout, “Here’s your Patriot Act, here’s your fucking abuse of power.” The video also captures patrons asking for the officers’ badge numbers, as well as a patron being told to move away from an officer “or you’re going to get Tasered, too.”
'Cause we're the POlice. And we got the tasers.
Old news, and not a full account of how it happened. I fear there's an attempt out there to censor the REAL story here by edit make ENTIRE event and make it look quite differently from what is being shown on the news and even in this YouTube clip.
The FULL video shows the student giving a nice long preamble of how much he appreciated Kerry being there. The, the student goes on about whether Kerry has read this book ( he holds up the book ), to which Kerry says he's already read it. THEN the student asks, in a rambling, long winded fashion, why did Kerry ceed the 2004 election, in light of so much alleged cases of voter fraud. ( That's 2 questions ) THEN the student makes some comment about Kerry and Bush both being members of the secret Skull and Bones society. At that point, he's been up there for almost 2 minutes, and everyone else is getting restless. He's hogging the mic. As folks are voicing their wishes that this guy move along, he responds that Kerry's had the mic for 2 hrs, can't he have some time too ? THEN the cops start to move in, as this guy is shouting that he's still got 2 MORE questions!
This was a stunt. This kid wanted to grand stand and make a name for himself.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Sounds like Tabatabainajad probably had a self-fulfilling prophecy. Much like Mr. don't-taze-me-bro.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Spock had the Vulcan neck pinch, but he never abused it, did he?
"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
"At that point, he's been up there for almost 2 minutes, and everyone else is getting restless. He's hogging the mic. As folks are voicing their wishes that this guy move along, he responds that Kerry's had the mic for 2 hrs, can't he have some time too?"
Why did you leave out the part about John Kerry repeatedly saying he would answer his question? He gave him the floor.
But it doesn't matter what the crowd wanted or what John Kerry wanted. It was a forum where civil discourse was encouraged, and he was tasered for not lying still and being quiet.
I'm sure the school's policy on tasers is that they may be used to preserve safety.
There was no safety issue.
"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."
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What the hell are you talking about? Spock was always Vulcan nerve pinching crazy types. And god only knows how many disruptive types were phasered on stun. And Kirk was knocking the hell out of people all over the damn place.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
What the hell are you talking about? Spock was always Vulcan nerve pinching crazy types. And god only knows how many disruptive types were phasered on stun. And Kirk was knocking the hell out of people all over the damn place.
Ok, yeah I laughed during that scene on the bus in Star Trek 4 when Spock pinched out the annoying punk rocker.
"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."
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Quote:That was pretty cool.
Originally posted by Succatash:
Ok, yeah I laughed during that scene on the bus in Star Trek 4 when Spock pinched out the annoying punk rocker.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Little trivia on that bus scene....the punk kid's name is Kirk Thatcher, and he wrote that ridiculous song that annoyed Capt. Kirk...."We're all bloody worthless.......how many megatons?"
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Quote:
"Succatash wrote:
Wednesday, September 19, 2007 17:36
Spock had the Vulcan neck pinch, but he never abused it, did he?
"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."
Actually, Spock abused his Vulcan neck pinch in Star Trek IV.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
EDIT: Someone beat me to it. Heh.
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So, do cops have the right to taser someone who's peacefully resisting by going limp? Offering no threat at all, merely being a sack of potatoes? Do the police have the right to taser bystanders who are asking for their badge numbers? Do the police have the right to taser someone who simply resisting being moved? (ie. not punching, kicking or bitingt, just not being "cooperative)? Do they have the right to taser someone who refuses to show their ID? Or someone who refuses to answer questions? Or take a breathalyzer?
Once you make "TASER" the anser for EVERY act of non-compliance, whether it's dangerous or not, you've opened the door for all kinds of abuses.
Yes, the kid was there to make a point. And the cops helped him make it.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Who was tazed for asking for badge numbers? Or refusing to show their ID? Or refusing to answer questions? Or take a breathalyzer? These particular points seem to be complete nonsense.
As for resisting arrest by going limp, that’s not what I saw on the video. The video that I saw didn’t show anyone getting tazed, and in fact, didn’t show hardly any of the event at all. What it did show of it was the perpetrator standing and directly addressing the police, until he was finally cuffed and dragged out. There were long periods of audio where you heard the guy screaming hateful remarks at the top of lungs BEFORE the tazing event occurred. A reasonable conclusion of the events, unseen in the video, would be that this guy was violently or at least aggressively resisting arrest not peacefully going limp.
After watching the video again, there were long periods of time, following the arrest, in which the officers demanded at least two dozen times to “stand up” in a door way. There was a counter in the way, so it was impossible to see the perpetrator who, given his demeanor so far, I would likely conclude was likely bracing himself on the floor in the door frame.
In no way can I honestly claim from this video that this guy was peacefully going limp.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:It was in the UCLA incident (previously linked and partially quoted.) Unfortuantely the YouTube won't play on my PC so I have to go with witness and police reports:
Who was tazed for asking for badge numbers? Or refusing to show their ID? Or refusing to answer questions? Or take a breathalyzer? These particular points seem to be complete nonsense.
Quote:
Mostafa Tabatabainejad, 23, was in a library computer lab around 11:30 p.m. when a community service officer asked for his campus ID as part of the library’s policy of requesting identification from patrons after 11:00 p.m. Tabatabainejad refused, and the officer soon returned with members of the University of California Police Department. “He continued to refuse,” read a November 15 UCPD memo. “As the officers attempted to escort him out, he went limp and continued to refuse to cooperate with officers or leave the building.” The statement claims that “Tabatabainejad encouraged library patrons to join his resistance” and confirms that he was stunned with a Taser and arrested for resisting a police officer.
But witnesses told the November 16 Los Angeles Times that Tabatabainejad was on his way out of the library when police forcibly stopped him. In the roughly six-minute video, Tabatabainejad’s screams of pain are clearly audible, as is his shout, “Here’s your Patriot Act, here’s your fucking abuse of power.” The video also captures patrons asking for the officers’ badge numbers, as well as a patron being told to move away from an officer “or you’re going to get Tasered, too.”
www.ala.org/ala/alonline/currentnews/newsarchive/2006abc/november2006a
/uclataser.cfm
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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If you're talking about the 14 NOV UCLA incident, I have no reason to believe that at any time was anyone tazed for refusing to show ID, asking for badge numbers or taking a breathalyzer. (The police threatening a thing doesn't mean it happened - in fact there seems to be no reason to believe that anyone was tazed for asking for badge numbers or that anyone claimed to have witnessed anyone being tazed for asking for badge numbers.)
If you would like to show me some evidence, I'll consider it, but I haven't seen any so far.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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He was tasered for GOING LIMP. And witnesses were threatened with being tasered. So going limp is a crime? Being a non-threatening witness is a crime? What does that do to "civil disobedience"?
What I was doing was throwing out a bunch of hypotheticals and real examples where a taser might be used for ANY sort of resistance whether dangerous or not. Because that seems to be the direction you're heading in since you seem to be proposing that ANY sort of resistance justifies being tasered. If you DO draw a line, where is it?
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Apparently Finn, Hero, Auraptor, Jongsstraw and JRC have NO line that separates reasonable from unreasonable taser use? Because if you have a duty to obey lawful instructions (according to Hero) and any resistance merits being tasered, what do we get to see next? Field interrogation by taser?
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
"At that point, he's been up there for almost 2 minutes, and everyone else is getting restless. He's hogging the mic. As folks are voicing their wishes that this guy move along, he responds that Kerry's had the mic for 2 hrs, can't he have some time too?"
Why did you leave out the part about John Kerry repeatedly saying he would answer his question? He gave him the floor.
But it doesn't matter what the crowd wanted or what John Kerry wanted. It was a forum where civil discourse was encouraged, and he was tasered for not lying still and being quiet.
I'm sure the school's policy on tasers is that they may be used to preserve safety.
There was no safety issue.
First of all, it was tough to hear Kerry's answer over the student's ranting and raving. I did hear Kerry say he HAD read the book that the kid was waving around. Did THAT appease the guy from continuing on his rant? Hell no! The student wasn't in the LEAST bit interested in Kerry's answer, he even said so himself. The kid WANTED to grandstand, that much is clear by the way he said Kerry has had the mic for 2 hours, when do I get a turn? ( Folks weren't there to see YOU speak, son. )
I don't know the format for the open questions, but it became clear that after his first 2, which he ignored Kerry's response, he had 2 MORE questions, and that's when security was called for. He wasn't going to yield the mic.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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And the cops tased him for not kissing their pig asses. They didn't like him. But there was no threat of any kind.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
And the cops tased him for not kissing their pig asses. They didn't like him. But there was no threat of any kind.
Did he leave the area quietly when asked ?
No
Did he resist arrest ?
Yes
Did he continue to struggle after he was on the ground and shown the taser ?
Yes.
At worst, you can blame the UF police officers for not having the skill ( they definatly had the man/woman power ) to subdue this guy. Once they showed their hand and he saw the taser, I'm betting they hoped he'd settle down. He didn't, so they tased him.
This has nothing to do w/ him not kissing their 'pig asses', what so ever. I'll bet everyone down there is just glad this guy was WHITE! Imagine the circus if he were black, latino or other!
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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"I don't know the format for the open questions, but it became clear that after his first 2, which he ignored Kerry's response, he had 2 MORE questions, and that's when security was called for. He wasn't going to yield the mic."
It sounds like you recommend tasering for the 'crime' of being too loud. There is such a thing as proportionate response, i.e. - you wouldn't shoot someone for failing to produce an ID.
So, in your mind, is a taser a proportionate response for every situation, threatening, inconvenient or inconsiderate ?
***************************************************************
Wipe that smirk off your face son - TZZZZTT !!
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Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
And the cops tased him for not kissing their pig asses.
Nice respect to the police jerkoff ....the police who put their lives on the line to save your sorry ass from killers and scumbags every day. I hope they spit on you when you or your mommy desperately need them.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"I don't know the format for the open questions, but it became clear that after his first 2, which he ignored Kerry's response, he had 2 MORE questions, and that's when security was called for. He wasn't going to yield the mic."
It sounds like you recommend tasering for the 'crime' of being too loud. There is such a thing as proportionate response, i.e. - you wouldn't shoot someone for failing to produce an ID.
So, in your mind, is a taser a proportionate response for every situation, threatening, inconvenient or inconsiderate ?
No, dumbass, I say he should have been tased, maced and then knocked on the skull w/ a night stick FIRST, then asked to quietly leave the auditorium.
I see that you copied my comment per the issue of the format. A honest and sincere response on YOUR part would be a) you had heard the format was 1,2 or what ever number of questions or b) I don't know the format either. I'm forced to go w/ the assumption that you've not seen the full video, where he filibusters the mic, ignores Kerry's replies to his ridiculous questions, THEN held up his book and started in w/ his 'secret society' nonsense. Was he tasered then? Hell no. He was politley told to yield the mic. He refused. I'm not going over this all over again for your sake, but to say he was tased for being too LOUD is something only a moron would conclude. Watch the tape. Watch it 5 or 10 more times if you need to. The student, not the cops, escalated this event. Never make the mistake that it was the other way around. He got EXACTLY what he wanted, and deserved.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Nice respect to the police jerkoff ....the police who put their lives on the line to save your sorry ass from killers and scumbags every day. I hope they spit on you when you or your mommy desperately need them.
When cops abuse their power they become pigs. Don't be a fool, leave my mommy out of this.
"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."
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"The student, not the cops, escalated this event. Never make the mistake that it was the other way around."
Kerry gave him the floor, the cops took it away. They manhandled him and tased him for not respecting their authority. Their pride was hurt. The cops IN EVERY WAY wrongfully escalated this event.
"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."
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"Move along!"
"Whaaa....?"
ZZZT!
"Please leave with us"
*goes limp*
ZZZZT!
*police break in wrong house at night*
"FREEZE!!"
"WHAAAA....???"
*struggles*
ZZZZT!.... ZZZZZZZZT!...... ZZZZZZZZZZZT!
(really happened)
"What were you doing?"
"Kiss my ass!"
ZZZT!
"Open it up!"
"No!"
ZZZZT!
"Leave the parade route"
"No"
ZZZT!
The Taser: The all-purpose police-state tool! (Kinda like some people on the board. 
)
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Let's not generalize here too much. Each scenario must be looked at individually to make sense. Do officers file reports each time they use their tasers, kind of like shooting enquiries? You get tased for good reason, might want to remember that in the future. You get tased for no good reason, sue. Thinking this incident will set a precedent and make future taser use more prevelant, not likely IMHO.
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The kid was taking away from others their opportunity to ask their own questions. Kerry or not, this guy was going to filibuster the event. After he had his 2 minutes in the lime light, it was time for him to go. He is the only one who escalated events to their eventual conclusion, him getting tased. The cops were only doing their job. If this clown had a knife or a gun, and someone had gotten hurt, you'd be bashing them for not acting FAST enough when all the warning signs were there that this guy was trouble.
You're 180 degrees wrong on this one, 'tash.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Sig, you've joined 'tash in the 180 degrees wrong club too. Amazing your abilty to sift through all the facts and come to a conclusion that is utterly lacking in anything which remotely deals in reality.
A true gift you have.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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BDN- I'm trying to get a sense of what people think it a "good reason", and so far it sounds like smart-mouthing, not moving quick enough, not moving at all, not knowing who's breaking into your house are ALL "good reasons" to get tasered.
So where would YOU draw it? Apparently Auraptor has NO boundary. Any reason at all is a good reason to use a taser, which is why I called him a police-state tool.
Quote:So, where would YOU draw the line?
Sig, you've joined 'tash in the 180 degrees wrong club too. Amazing your abilty to sift through all the facts and come to a conclusion that is utterly lacking in anything which remotely deals in reality. A true gift you have.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:Not submitting to your false image of these events is hardly a reasonable argument to assume we don’t draw a line somewhere. The fact remains that no one was tasered for more than half of the conditions you mention and there is no way that I could honestly describe the situation I’ve seen in the videos of these two events as peaceful resistance. So before any discussion on where a line is draw, we first need to be honest about the criteria we will use to judge that line.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Apparently Finn, Hero, Auraptor, Jongsstraw and JRC have NO line that separates reasonable from unreasonable taser use?
Spock is a tool of state oppression!!
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
BDN- I'm trying to get a sense of what people think it a "good reason", and so far it sounds like smart-mouthing, not moving quick enough, not moving at all, not knowing who's breaking into your house are ALL "good reasons" to get tasered.
So where would YOU draw it?
Not following police instructions. Police say settle down so we can cuff you, settle down and let them cuff you. Police wrongfully break into your house and tell you to get down, get down and sort out the issue once the scene has been secured. Police have a tough job where they constantly deal with beligerent and combatitive people. If you do not want to be treated the same way, don't act beligerent or combatitive.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Not following police instructions. Police say settle down so we can cuff you, settle down and let them cuff you. Police wrongfully break into your house and tell you to get down, get down and sort out the issue once the scene has been secured. Police have a tough job where they constantly deal with beligerent and combatitive people. If you do not want to be treated the same way, don't act beligerent or combatitive.
That's asking A LOT.
Police have a tough job, that's why they get paid. They work for us, not the other way around. How can you suggest that free Americans should blindly obey and submit to every police instruction?
"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."
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Quote:Well then, what are your criteria?
So before any discussion on where a line is draw, we first need to be honest about the criteria we will use to judge that line.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
Police have a tough job, that's why they get paid. They work for us, not the other way around. How can you suggest that free Americans should blindly obey and submit to every police instruction?
If you find yourself in a situation where a police officer is pointing a taser at you and you do not want to be tased, follow the officers instructions. You can argue all you want after the fact when the situatuion has calmed down and the adrenaline has stopped flowing. In the mean time, society has given the police tools of force and the onus to use these tools. Will mistakes be made, yes. Will some officers overstep their bounds, yes. Will this lead to a '1984' style police state, no.
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Quote:It will if most people believe that any taser use is justified.
Will this lead to a '1984' style police state, no.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:It will if most people believe that any taser use is justified.
Will this lead to a '1984' style police state, no.
So you do not think any taser use is justified?
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I don't think tasers should be used on people who are not posing a threat. I realize that in some cases it's hard to know at the moment who is and who isn't posing a threat, and that can be argued afterwards, but there has to be SOME line that says it was or wasn't justified... to be looked at when cooler heads prevail. That would be my line.
Yanno, people were shocked (so to speak) about the "school" that essentially tasered its retarded students for "training" purposes, and yet it seems that some are promoting that the police do the same thing.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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I was thinking about that. Maybe we should relieve police of the need to carry tasers and just wear our backpacks and electrodes so they can zap us more easily and at a safe distance.
A person not ceding the microphone is not a threat. A person not obeying a police order to be quiet and move along is not a threat. They may be pissing the police off, but they're not threatening them.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Hey check it out:
The official police report!
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2007/images/09/18/offense.report.072274.pdf
Upon contact with Meyer, he began acting in a violent manner pushing the officers involved, including lifting me off the ground and screaming obscenities. Meyer was told on several occasions to comply with the officers and stop resisting...
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Tasing justified ! As I suspected all along.
Quote:
After many attempts to get the
man to comply, he chose to continue actively resisting the officers. I obeyed the command
from Sgt. King to utilize the taser for the continuation of non-compliance by the man. One
contact tase to the man's left shoulder was deployed for the duration of its cycle. After the
cycle ended, the man was asked to comply and stop resisting and for a brief moment he did, at
which time he was placed in handcuffs. After he was lifted to his feet, he kept screaming and
yelling to let him go by continually pushing the officers. I read the man his Miranda rights
and explained why he was being placed under arrest
As the man was escorted down stairs
with no cameras in sight, he remained quiet, but once the cameras made their way down
stairs he started screaming and yelling again. Some of the comments that the man made were
"You can't kill me.", "They are giving me to the government." and "They are going to kill
me."
The man was identified not only by the people there filming for him, but also by a business
card he had on him that had his picture on it. The card read, "TheANDREWMEYER.com
"Speak my mind." I asked him if he was Andrew Meyer and he said, "Yes, I am."
It was a stunt. Knew it all along. He WANTED to cause a scene.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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After the police became physical he became physical. Looks like the escalation and threats were one-sided.
A person not ceding the microphone is not a threat. A person not obeying a police order to be quiet and move along is not a threat. They may be pissing the police off, but they're not threatening them.
SignyM: On a theoretical note, non-violent confrontation only works if the force you're confronting has a sense of fair play. Thousands of people had their heads broken open or were mowed down with gunfire in India until the British were sick with themselves over the task. That's why it worked.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
After the police became physical he became physical. Looks like the escalation and threats were one-sided.
A person not ceding the microphone is not a threat. A person not obeying a police order to be quiet and move along is not a threat. They may be pissing the police off, but they're not threatening them.
You continue to get it wrong, over and over again. After he didn't comply w/ the officers, he left them no option BUT to get physical. A person not obeying police orders IS a threat. He was out of line and out of order. The cops did the right thing in restraining him and hauling his prank ass out of there.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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"He was out of line and out of order."
Yes, he was being childish, inconvenient, and rude. So what ?
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Are you even following the same thread ?
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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He harangued Kerry, used foul language, wouldn't shut up or leave quietly when asked. It sounds
childish, inconvenient, and rude to me, not dangerous.
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Quote:Seems an overly generous statement. Is lying down passively a "threat"?
A person not obeying police orders IS a threat
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Always look upstream.
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FWIW I've been physically stalked several times, roughed up, had people from emergency psych wander by saying "you know, I could be killing you ...", had my house broken into while I was home, had a gun drawn on me ... I would consider those to be actual threats.
But rudeness? I'm sorry, that just doesn't count.
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Quote:Okay, let’s consider some examples:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Well then, what are your criteria?
So before any discussion on where a line is draw, we first need to be honest about the criteria we will use to judge that line.
If a student is asked to present his ID while in a student facility that requires that ID, but refuses to present that ID, then I think tazing is certainly inappropriate.
On the other hand, if after refusing to present the ID and after refusing to leave the facility when demanded to leave by the police and after refusing to cooperate when the police attempt to physically remove him then tazing becomes an option which the police can now use responsibly.
If that student is laying limp on the floor in such a way that the police can remove him by dragging him or carrying him, without causing unnecessary physical strain on themselves, then tazing is not appropriate.
On the other hand, if he is laying limp on the floor in a doorjam making it impossible for police to remove him or if he is too heavy or resists attempts to move him then some tazing incentive might be justified.
Ultimately, if these men are adult college students who have the intelligence and responsibility to take college courses which requires far, far, far, far more intellectual faculties then it does not to throw tantrums on the floor in a public place, then we can assume that the act of throwing these tantrums is not innocent, but a belligerent inappropriate act of a self-centered arrogant snotty infantile assholery, which I have amazingly little sympathy for when it comes to whether he gets a harmless electron shock to snap him into the real world.
On the other hand, if this person is a child or mentally handicap person, throwing the same tantrum, than tazing is probably completely inappropriate.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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So far as I know, being an asshole isn't illegal.
It would be interesting to see if anyone nearby felt threatened or merely irked. My guess is most people realized he was putting on a show and were irked.
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Ve mussst haff order here !!
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
But rudeness? I'm sorry, that just doesn't count.
So in your opinion this fellow should be allowed to push his own agenda at the expense of others for a duration of his choosing?
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They cut off the microphone. That was enough.
My question - so in your opinion rudeness is a reason to tase ?
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Apparently not.
eta: in response to your cutting off the mic being enough.
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Just wondering, b/c in your own words the worst thing he did was "push his own agenda at the expense of others for a duration of his choosing".
Cutting of the microphone cut off his ability to verbally disrupt the group. It didn't become physical till campus security made it so.
So, is rudeness a reason to tase someone ?
see below
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Just wondering, b/c in your own words the worst thing he did was "push his own agenda at the expense of others for a duration of his choosing".
Those were my words but not my meaning. To revive an earlier theme from this thread,
"The needs of the many must outweigh the needs of the few, or one."
You seem to think this fellow was tased for being an asshole. He was tased for resisting arrest.
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The more I think about it, the more it seems that the powers that be weren't dealing with the problem (noisiness), they were reacting to their fear of a perceived loss of control. Escalating the situation to regain control for it's own sake was not the most effective thing they could have done. Cutting off the microphone was a good start. Ignoring him would have been a better follow-up.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Seems an overly generous statement. Is lying down passively a "threat"?
A person not obeying police orders IS a threat
Absolutely,it can be,depending on where you are. If you lie down in your own bed, no big deal. If you lie down in the aisle of a fully loaded airliner, or block the fire exits of a large building,......
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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What about the guy who was tasered at the UCLA Library? Was he a threat to the officers?
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Maybe we should relieve police of the need to carry tasers and just wear our backpacks and electrodes so they can zap us more easily and at a safe distance.
Rue, wow, you CAN predict the future!
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FINN
Quote:So you would have tasered civil rights protesters if they were lying in the streets and resisted being moved?
Ultimately, if these men are adult college students who have the intelligence and responsibility to take college courses which requires far, far, far, far more intellectual faculties then it does not to throw tantrums on the floor in a public place, then we can assume that the act of throwing these tantrums is not innocent, but a belligerent inappropriate act of a self-centered arrogant snotty infantile assholery, which I have amazingly little sympathy for when it comes to whether he gets a harmless electron shock to snap him into the real world.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:Tasers didn’t exist at the time, so no, but I might have shot them with water cannons. Protesters, even those with values I find moral and agreeable, must still respect the peace. However, there’s an entire world of difference between a protestor, and an asshole throwing a tantrum. They are two different situations which should be evaluated independently, and my statement was not meant to (nor did I) suggest an action, but a sympathy.
Originally posted by SignyM:
So you would have tasered civil rights protesters if they were lying in the streets and resisted being moved?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Protesters, even those with values I find moral and agreeable, must still respect the peace. However, there’s an entire world of difference between a protestor, and an asshole throwing a tantrum.
I agree with both senitments. The Civil Rights movement (in the 1960s) had a legitimate grievance worthy of large scale civil disobiediance. And shooting them with water cannons was also important because society has an interest in maintaining order. The two together provided the country with both the catalyst for change while preserving nations interest in law and order (yes, the TV show has been on a LONG time).
Plus water cannons are cool. What we need is a combination water cannon/taser. That would be something...
And liberals are pansies. If your not willing to get tasered you've got no business being disobiediant.
I note for the record that in my City we require an officer to be certified before being issued a taser and that class includes getting tasered so they know what it feels like.
H
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Quote:So in your view, whether a taser (water cannon, baton) is used on a peaceful protester is based on YOUR subjective view of whether or not the person is an "asshole"? I personally would rather have the line set at something a LITTLE more objective, like whether or not the person was a threat to anyone in the vicinity. I know it will allow some people to "game the system" but in my experience MOST problems occur when police over-react to a peaceful situation.
However, there’s an entire world of difference between a protestor, and an asshole throwing a tantrum
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