Common or annoying characterization mistakes
POSTED BY: jetflair
UPDATED: Friday, October 19, 2007 12:13
VIEWED: 28421
PAGE 3 of 9
Oh, lord now I'm paranoid.
I love the Castro, because if somebody grabs my ass, I know they're picking my pocket.
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(This is following discussion started on the fic recommendation thread, regarding Mal's feelings toward River and his decision to include her in the theft in the BDM.)
nbz: where do you think Mal changed his mind about the Tams? I was always figured it was the Kaylee scene - she tells him he's a nice man, which draws that little bit of noble out of him. Of course, he has to get at Simon first with the dead Kaylee trick, because he can't just be nice. Has to balance it with being a jerk LOL!
Platonist: I'm with nbz that the "tears" comment was more a dig at Simon. But it takes a callous kind of person to make a joke like that. And even if River wanted to take part, (which I think she did) that doesn't excuse Mal for putting her in danger. I mean, she might not have understood the situation fully, not with the cracked brainpan and all. So Mal taking her along was pretty much exploitation, just as you said.
Meaning, I'm totally with you guys re dark Mal. He does bad stuff - that's part of what's fun about him! 
But there is a nice man in him somewhere, and I think he does have a bit of fondness for River, a respect that she earned when she dealt with Jubal Early. But I don't think he's going to go around patting her on the head and calling her sweetie or anything - he may feel a fondness but he surely won't make any effort to express it. Not as I understand him. He's more likely to cover it up as much as he can.
Which is why I moved to this thread - this discussion got me thinking of a Mal characterization that gets to me. It seems like fanfic tends to have a Mal who's very aware of his feelings, who ponders or discusses his emotional state at length.
I see him as separate not only from others but from himself. Part of what I love about how Nathan plays him is the subtlety - Mal certainly feels things, but you can see him clamping down on it, making an effort to stay cool and numb, to take action and not to analyze himself.
What do you guys think? I've had disagreements about this with a beta reader I respect mightily, so I know there are other ways to interpret him...
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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
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great thread.
think i'm with you on this Mal4prez.
i'm revisiting Mal's character muself right now in prep 4 a post-BDM fic...
keep this thread active coz it's got me thinking!
i'll get back to you guys.
make someone a browncoat today - don't drive nobody away
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Yeah, callous... that's a fairly succinct way of describing Mal's behavior. And he is most like that when hurt or threatened, as in Shindig toward Kaylee and the cake dress.
I find it strange though, that he is consistently portrayed in canon as being insensitive and "out of touch" with his feelings, but he is the one who initiates "feelings" discussions with Inara, as in the deleted shuttle scene, or at the end of HOG. Are these attempts on his part to rejoin the human race or are they inconsistent character portrayals?
And to be honest, I don't think that we'll see a much different Mal in a sequel. Sure he won one for his side, had a character arc, and is metaphoring on love, but I still think he has a long way to go before becoming whole and establishing a lasting relationship with Inara.
Maybe that's what Joss left to revisit and explore.
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The most profound pieces of Mal (IMHO) are the pieces that are missing or warped. Those seem to be the bridge for the wrong stuff he does for the right reasons. He won't do wrong to someone just because he can. Sure he'll rib at someone, but in the name of comraderie. If they get butt hurt by what he says then oh well. They can't take a joke. That's the thing about folks with missing parts. It takes certain associations to see the missing parts. Most of the time the fire in those associations have nothing to do with the person they are aimed at. Like the Mal/Inara thing. They could never be whole. Lasting is a stretch as they will eventually say enough to really hurt, maybe injure each other. There is the test. Two people who are not whole by themselves can never hope to be whole with another person. An obvious character flaw most people fail (or refuse) to recognize.
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Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
nbz: where do you think Mal changed his mind about the Tams? I was always figured it was the Kaylee scene - she tells him he's a nice man, which draws that little bit of noble out of him. Of course, he has to get at Simon first with the dead Kaylee trick, because he can't just be nice. Has to balance it with being a jerk LOL!
Yeah the 'verse has to remain in balance. For every good deed...
It is that very scene you mention, but IMO BEFORE kaylee wakes up. You know the bit where he has his back to her pondering over a sleeping River? In effect, (IMO) by the time of his exchange with Kaylee he has already decided.
Before then, it has been one crisis after another where he does not have a chance to think, he sticks with his first thoughts 'til he gets a chance to think everything through. That is where I say he makes his (I still think somewhat out of character) decision.
Quote:
He does bad stuff - that's part of what's fun about him!
Too true. I also like him (and crew) to do things which are plain wrong. Yes, Mal can be honourable when he wants, but he can also be petty. (In HoG: "This distress call wouldn't be taking place in someone's pants, would it?" is a low blow after being outmanoeuvred.)
Quote:
Which is why I moved to this thread - this discussion got me thinking of a Mal characterization that gets to me. It seems like fanfic tends to have a Mal who's very aware of his feelings, who ponders or discusses his emotional state at length.
I see him as separate not only from others but from himself. Part of what I love about how Nathan plays him is the subtlety - Mal certainly feels things, but you can see him clamping down on it, making an effort to stay cool and numb, to take action and not to analyze himself.
What do you guys think? I've had disagreements about this with a beta reader I respect mightily, so I know there are other ways to interpret him...
I pretty much agree with that. One question I do have is.. Is Mal ultra-aware of his surroundings or not?
He seems good at reading people (only reason to throw the money back to Patience is to keep Jayne on side.) which suggests so, but at other times he has to be guided to avoid stepping in things.
(He also has a dangerous tendency of not taking notice of where Jayne goes after giving him a verbal lashing. That is the last time I would have Jayne pass behind me. But Zoe is there to cover.)
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i think many (tho not all) changes in mal's characterization - post BDM - would be subtle but profound, reflecting Fillion's acting.
This makes life Verrry difficult for the writer though.. because the nuances are hard to catch!
on the other hand - the great thing about mal (coupled with the format of the show itself)
is that the character is flexible enough to encompass moments (and indeed plot arcs) that are quite dark,
while still being a plausible foil for comedy and heroics.
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Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
(This is following discussion started on the fic recommendation thread, regarding Mal's feelings toward River
?????????????????????
River - wild nature
runs through the land
Mal sees the land as taken
she represents damage / loss / natural feeling
Mal fears this in himself as a stoic
he looks ahead to the Sky
River forces him to confront the now
he cannot look away - but he does not want to see.
???????????????????????
zoner is a conduit
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Quote:
Originally posted by nvghostrider:
The most profound pieces of Mal (IMHO) are the pieces that are missing or warped. Those seem to be the bridge for the wrong stuff he does for the right reasons.
...Or the right stuff for the wrong reasons. :P
(yes, I do harp on about him being evil and all that, but it is a very unexplored side. Too many people portray him as all heroic. Which he is, but that is not all there is. I'm playing as a sort of devil's advocate.)
One other thing I cannot really say as fact, but I am pretty sure that Mal has a manipulative side to him (like any great leader). We only get a small glimpse of it in Bushwacked (Somehow the least favourite episode for alot of people out of the whole series!) with that whole making peace with the dead speech.
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The manipulation allows him to justify the things he does, good or bad. He has to lessen the attention of the bad stuff 'cause, well, he don't like the idea of being caught. Of course he doesn't mind the reputation involved because it makes his job easier and allows him a bit of job security. Of course the good stuff he struggles with most. He knows what is to be right. Even with the loss of faith in god he still feels there are dues to be paid. Regardless if he has lost faith in god he still hold true to the beliefs that formed him. He knows god exists but is all manner of pissed at him/it.
I also believe Mal may have been victimized or carries some inherited trauma. Coupled with the places he's been and the things he's done opens a huge rift for character exploration. Of course it is all speculation but written well it would be interesting before it is entertaining. That may be a cause for concern for writers who look for high numbers of readers. I'm sure many would lose interest as there are details and down time that really help define who he really is.
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