Common or annoying characterization mistakes
POSTED BY: jetflair
UPDATED: Friday, October 19, 2007 12:13
VIEWED: 28421
PAGE 8 of 9
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Originally posted by mal4prez:
(Um... Leiasky... don't read this...) I've got an in - I'm betaing for one of the queens of K/S, and if she flames me I'll make her pay in red ink LOL!
LOL! No flames here:) And, really, how much worse could you make it? :P You already go happy with your edit pen! And what's this 'in' you claim to have, hmmmm?
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But hey - I'm not saying there isn't something between Simon and Kaylee, I'm just saying it's not likely to be all peaches.
I agree. I like a good, quick romp story as much as anyone, but I really like a story that takes time to develop the characters in their relationships. (Mal4Prez has done that REALLY well in hers. Puts characters through hell and sees how they come out at the other end)
Sometimes the relationships work, and sometimes they don't. But if they don't, it needs to be believable and not just to get one of them together with another character, whether it be an OC or another BDH.
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I guess - any fic I've seen that has their relationship fail is clearly done just so that the author can pair them with others, and it's not an exploration of their own personalities and such.
It's very obvious in many fics that characterization is pushed to the side to get a specific couple together. (Were you commenting on a specific pairing here? I didn't read back far enough to catch it if you did!) Which just sends the story spiraling into the unbelievable and ruins it for me.
I'd buy a bunch of different pairings if the two people involved were brought together in a believable way. And if there is a pairing already established, that is taken out of the equation believably.
But that's just me. Some people are less picky - and outspoken.
"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."
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Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I think some part of him wants out of the cage that the war got him into (and I'm a total supporter of the Mal PTSD theory, obviously!) I think his ship and crew have provided him a safe place where he can take little steps toward healing, and the risk he took with Inara was part of that.
Mal ultra-aware of his surroundings? Absolutely! Like you say, he does read people extremely well, and he's very good at playing them when he needs to. But that's outer awareness. The thing I'm wondering about is inner awareness. For example... imagine a scene where Mal sits on the dark bridge and thinks: "I'm such a closed-off lonely man. The war really did a number on me, and I wish I could be like my old self. I'm just too hurt... But, hey - my crew has become special to me. I really... care for them... and it gives me hope. I wonder if I'm ready to take a risk... maybe I could really love[ Inara/River/Simon/OC/Mal pairing flavor of the day]"
Would that sit well with you? Do you think he's consciously aware of himself like that?
My take: Part of PTSD is an inability to recognize it and face it, so in my fics Mal is generally unaware of the real source of his moodiness. He kind of just goes with it, and does the best he can day-to-day. Not understanding why he is as he is makes it a vicious cycle, because he blames himself for the times when he's a callous jerk, and so has gotten to think of himself as a mean old man. Which darkens his mood, which makes him be mean, etc...
I know that this is my own version of Mal, and could be easily disagreed with. I mean, he does spend a lot of time being dark and broody. What the hell is he thinking about when he broods?
Ohh, Mal. My topic of choice. First off….totally, 100% agree with Mal having severe PTSD. I think we see it happen in all of a few seconds, when he is ordered to lay down arms and watches the Alliance light up the valley. Mal's world ended in that moment, along with whatever faith and idealism that got him through the horrors of the war.
It accounts for a character so inconsistent that he does, at times, seem almost psychotic. He's got so many contradictions in the way he reacts to things, too many mood swings, too much of a tendency to comfort at some times and lash out at others. When he's not hiding from fights, he's seeking them out with glee. Sometimes he deals with adversity with incredible optimism, sometimes with a darkness so deep it's scary.
The thing is, he deals with it much better than most real-world PTSD sufferers.
Mal, self-aware? Very much so, I think….but not, of course, in the cheesy way Mal4Prez parodied above. He's an intelligent, feeling, introverted man. If I had to peg someone as not self-aware, it would be the Jayne type. Why would Mal brood, if he wasn't keenly aware of the choices he makes and the ethical, emotional, and physical ramifications of them? Mal isn't just haunted by his past, he's haunted by who he is and what he's become.
I agree that he isn't aware of the real source of his moodiness, in that he doesn't sit down and think, "Wow, I'd be a happier person if I were nicer to people and didn't have to get shot and stabbed and put my crew in situations that put them in danger on a constant basis." He, like most people, is not able to change who he is, and that is who he is.
But Mal – cannot be simplified into a person without deep compassion, the awareness of what affects people emotionally, and the ability to, for lack of a better word, manipulate them. I dislike the term manipulate because I associate it with people who manipulate others for their own gain or satisfaction. I don't think Mal does that. I think he "manipulates" people as part of his job as captain of a ship, and in order for them all to stay alive and stay flying he has to have a fine sense of how to interact with his crew and how to keep them stable.
Out of Gas is about as beautiful a portrait of Mal as a person and as a captain as I can think of. I watch it in awe of
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Looking at this from a slightly different angle –
Mal's primary skill, the one thing he truly excels at, is leadership. And he knows exactly how, for lack of a better word, to manipulate people. He's an expert at it, and it comes as naturally as breathing to him.
The interesting, and incredibly lovable and admirable thing about him, is that we don't see him using that grasp on human nature to tear people down. He uses it to support them, bolster them, and get them through crises. Mal is easily capable of emotionally devastating probably every single person on that boat, not to mention a lot of other people he runs into. He doesn't do that. Heck, he doesn't even do it to his enemies. Remember him talking to Saffron after the heist? He sees through her completely, treachery and scheming and all, knows she's manipulating him, and yet sees and responds to the genuine hurt he also sees in her.
He has the trust and the loyalty of his crew because he supports them, not because he bullies them. Granted, sometimes that support might come in the form of threatening to sleep with a crew member's wife, but support none the less.
Most people with PTSD or any other deeply seated anger or insecurity issue *would* use that skill to lash out at and devastate those around them. Even inherently kind ones. But somehow, Mal holds back from that. When he gets mad, he uses physical violence, he says randomly mean things….but he doesn't *hurt* people. He'll punch someone out before he'll exploit their true insecurities. Even when he uses violence, he rarely uses true fear as a tool….or when he does, it's done carefully and not maliciously. He'll punch someone out, but not let them see it coming.
The biggest exception I can see to this generalization is his interactions with Inara. He *does* go for the kill with her sometimes. He does say things carefully geared to hurt and anger. And…..she does it right back. One reason Mal is so threatened by Inara is his knowledge that she is as good at this game as he is, possibly better.
"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.
"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"
www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!
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still a great thread - and damn useful!
also: Jetflare - i read your fic with interest!
(oops! gotta dash!)
makes someone a browncoat today - don't drive nobody away
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Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
Oh Yeah! We better be ready to take cover. Keep a look-out for the K/S shippers flaming our way!
I gotta agree with you on the S/K love boat scenario depiction.
In my experience, I've never interpretated "my one regret in all of this is not being with you" as a declaration of undying love.
Actually, it doesn't sound that different than any other asshole that's ever wanted and expected to get into my pants over a couple of Martinis during Happy Hour.
OMG SO RIGHT THERE WITH YOU!
*dies laughing*
_____
"You know that's gonna fall off."
-----Nathan Fillion (to me while drunk)
How are ships unlike food?
1. If you try it and don't like it, you don't have to do it again.
2. You can have as much as you want, when you want.
3. Cravings can be very specific.
I mean, hello it's not as if there's 'ship police?
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Since we are on the topic of S/K and fanfic characterizations and cliches...I 've had some time to go back and enjoy girlfan's "Even Roses Have Thorns".
post Miranda, plot driven, canon pairings with an interesting exploration of S/K, realistic and dark at times, but not overly flowery. Excellent believable dialog.
Be prepared for a long one
http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=16576
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Quote:
Originally posted by Grizwald:
And making River talk about herself in the third person all the time.
(I have to wonder if River could ever have been the engaging, fascinating character she is without Summer. I doubt it.)
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I think it's okay if they make her talk in third person if there's a reason behind it. Like, if she's trying to prove a point about herself (like in Objects in Space) But if they're doing it just cuz, it really bugs me.
Also, I think no one can play River's part if it isn't Summer. Summer does the character perfectly, and I can't imagine anyone else doing the part.
River: "The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems."
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Quote:Well I think someone else might have done a decent job but after the first ep aired, there was no one else that could play any of the BDHs. I agree with Joss that they were all meant to play those parts.
Originally posted by RiverFlan:Quote:
Originally posted by Grizwald:
I have to wonder if River could ever have been the engaging, fascinating character she is without Summer. I doubt it.
Also, I think no one can play River's part if it isn't Summer. Summer does the character perfectly, and I can't imagine anyone else doing the part.
And personally, River is one of my favorite characters. She's another truly complex character that is all to often simplified and flatened out in fic. In a very real way River is several different people; there's the lost little girl who is sweet and sunny, there's what the acadamy made of her, and there's the actual and whole person she wants so very much to be. And of course, there are also the places where these different people meet. All to often, people write her as only one of these and that's just not t he character I see.
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Op: You're fighting a war you've already lost.
Mal: Yeah, well I'm known for that.
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Well Zoe is usually a rare pairing person. I've read (and written) Simon/Zoe. I've seen Kaylee/Zoe, Inara/Zoe (V. rare)and Zoe/Saffron (!)
Femeslash is actually rather rare at times in our little verse. More m/m slash.
I don't think Zoe would be able to paired with anyone we've seen on the show other than Wash.
Zoe/Saffron is laughable, remember how Zoe thinks there's something not right with Saffron in OMR? (she was right, too, but that's not what we're talking about)
Inara/Zoe is unlikely. Remember, Inara's more than a little spoiled, and Zoe isn't.
Kaylee/Zoe wouldn't happen. They're just friends. And Zoe isn't gay. Not that I'm saying being gay is a bad thing, just that Zoe isn't.
Simon/Zoe isn't likely, either. Yes, they're opposites, like Zoe/Wash, but the reason Zoe loves Wash is because Wash reminds her of everything the war wasn't. Laughter, jokes, having fun is what Wash is all about. Simon, on the other hand, is a doctor. You know, treating knife wounds, bullet holes, laser burns, all that. That won't exactly make her forget the war, or make her smile.
And Mal is just a friend. Sure, they've been through a lot together, but he's the captian to her, not a possible romance object.
That's just my view on her. She's a very independant person, and ready to kick the crap out of anyone who she doesn't like
Bwaa!
River: "The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems."
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Quote:
Originally posted by RiverFlan:
but the reason Zoe loves Wash is because Wash reminds her of everything the war wasn't. Laughter, jokes, having fun is what Wash is all about. Simon, on the other hand, is a doctor. You know, treating knife wounds, bullet holes, laser burns, all that. That won't exactly make her forget the war, or make her smile.
And Mal is just a friend. Sure, they've been through a lot together, but he's the captian to her, not a possible romance object.
The only Mal/Zoe pairing that makes sense to me is if it's set pre-Firefly - like during or directly after the war. While "War Stories" states that Mal and Zoe never slept together, there's wiggle room. I've read some very good Mal/Zoe pre-Firefly fics that made a lot of sense. They weren't *romantic* in the slightest. Just really well done *character* pieces that usually end with Zoe meeting Wash and then we, the audience, understand the difference between comfort/friendly/just-scratching-an-itch sex between Mal and Zoe and the healing/you're-the-one-I-want-to-spend-my-life-with sex with Wash.
The reasons you stated why Zoe and Simon wouldn't work are, I think, the same reasons Mal and Zoe wouldn't work. Zoe needed laughter and smiles. She needed to forget, or at least accept and move on. Mal can't give her that. Because *he* hasn't.
Uhhh... did that make any sense?
Awesome thread, btw. You guys are so smart!
Patsy: When you were two years old, we tied you to the central reservation of a motorway.
Edina: But you were like a homing pidgeon, sweetie....back within a week!
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