Call to Arms for People who believe we can win this war.
POSTED BY: MalBadInLatin
UPDATED: Monday, August 6, 2007 15:33
VIEWED: 12357
PAGE 1 of 2
If you are ages 18-30....And you're in favor of the war in Iraq, you have a moral obligation to enlist right now. And don't give me any of that stuff about the family you just started, plenty of our boys have given thier lives and had infants at home. People are dying right now because of your convictions....doesn't that affect you at all? Don't tell me that's not the only way to serve your country...It IS the only thing your country desperatly needs from you right now. You keep saying your country is in such peril from the people our brave boys face in the streets of Baghdad!.....Why are you pro war young people still sitting while people fight, suffer, and die in your stead.
Pro War Young People...go save Iraq yourself!
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*FMF pushes the snack trolly into this thread*
If I wait here they will come
---- plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose
Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre, Owner of a too big Turnippy smelling coat with MR scratched in the neck (thanks FollowMal!)
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
FORSAKEN original
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One of the great things about 'our' freedom is the fact that anyone can mouth off about anything and not have to back it up. But don't let me derail this very thought provoking thread, carry on as you were.
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Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
If you are ages 18-30....And you're in favor of the war in Iraq, you have a moral obligation to enlist right now. And don't give me any of that stuff about the family you just started, plenty of our boys have given thier lives and had infants at home. People are dying right now because of your convictions....doesn't that affect you at all? Don't tell me that's not the only way to serve your country...It IS the only thing your country desperatly needs from you right now. You keep saying your country is in such peril from the people our brave boys face in the streets of Baghdad!.....Why are you pro war young people still sitting while people fight, suffer, and die in your stead.
Pro War Young People...go save Iraq yourself!
What makes you think that's not happening now already?
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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How about you Rap ?
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
How about you Rap ?
How about me what ? Give any credence to this silly thread? Naw....I think not.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Sign me up! Proud to be another cog in the murder machine. 
Nevermind.... I'm already funding it.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:Back off Rue, Rap's a comfort addict. He's attending Comfort Anomymous to help him go to Iraq. And Iran.
Originally posted by rue:
How about you Rap ?
Believer Chrisisall
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Quote:Ummm...numbers. Statistics don't lie, just like the ones that say we're making a positive difference in the average Iraqi's life right now.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
What makes you think that's not happening now already?
The last angry Chrisisall
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Wow, you really had to walk a few blocks out of your way to avoid that one. So I'll be explicit, since I want an answer. Rap - since you are all for the war in Iraq, why don't you go fight there?
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
How about you Rap ?
Originally posted by AURaptor:
How about me what ? Give any credence to this silly thread? Naw....I think not.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Oh BTW the age of service (at least for the Army) is 18-45. It's not too late Rap! You too, Hero, Bigdamnnobody, Skywalken, and Jongsstraw! Unless you've got some really good excuse- like, you're blind- your next post should be from basic training.
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Cowards and hypocrites.
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Quote:Signy, there's believing, and then there's believing. These peeps believe in the war like Bush believes in God. Like in, as long as it doesn't inconvenience them. Here we see the bulls**t most plainly. There is no answer to these posts they can make that won't make them sound like cowards or hypocrites.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Oh BTW the age of service (at least for the Army) is 18-45. It's not too late Rap! You too, Hero, Bigdamnnobody, Skywalken, and Jongsstraw! Unless you've got some really good excuse- like, you're blind- your next post should be from basic training.
It's worth OTHERS dying for. Yep. Effue too.
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Signy, there's believing, and then there's believing. These peeps believe in the war like Bush believes in God. Like in, as long as it doesn't inconvenience them. Here we see the bulls**t most plainly. There is no answer to these posts they can make that won't make them sound like cowards or hypocrites.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Oh BTW the age of service (at least for the Army) is 18-45. It's not too late Rap! You too, Hero, Bigdamnnobody, Skywalken, and Jongsstraw! Unless you've got some really good excuse- like, you're blind- your next post should be from basic training.
It's worth OTHERS dying for. Yep. Effue too.
My work is done here...only one thing....where did all the pro war people go?
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
How about me what ? Give any credence to this silly thread? Naw....I think not.
Enlist now Rap!!!
If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.
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Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
If you are ages 18-30....And you're in favor of the war in Iraq, you have a moral obligation to enlist right now.
Actually my moral obligation is to vote my conscience for candidates who support my position. Then to live with the consequences of my decision.
As a citizen my obligation is to perform my job to the best of my ability, obey the laws of the land, pay my taxes, and exercise my franchise...but thats true war or no war.
As a Browns fan I have a moral obligation to buy tickets if I can or watch them on TV when I can't buy tickets. I've got them for three games so far and plan to buy them for at least three more. Go Browns!
But the last thing they need is some out of shape lawyer hitting the front lines with a rifle in one hand and the Ohio Rules of Criminal Procedure in the other.
I guess my point is this, if a person does not immediatly enlist do you feel that makes their contribution less important or their support less heartfelt? I believe a hundred million or so Americans would have disagreed with you back during WW2.
We also serve who stay behind (and prosecute people for speeding and DUIs...aka PirateNews).
H
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Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
My work is done here...only one thing....where did all the pro war people go?
We have jobs. Got paid last Friday. Am planning on buying a new computer and paying for my expensive vacation. About a third of my check went to buy ammunition and flak vests for the boys in Iraq...none went to the National Endowment for the Arts, thats were your money goes if you oppose the war.
H
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Oh BTW the age of service (at least for the Army) is 18-45. It's not too late Rap! You too, Hero, Bigdamnnobody, Skywalken, and Jongsstraw! Unless you've got some really good excuse- like, you're blind- your next post should be from basic training.
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Cowards and hypocrites.
I don't know how you have time to post from all your humanitarian work in Africa, not to mention all that peacekeeping work you do? I mean you BELIEVE in that stuff right? So you must be posting via your Peace Corp account via satelite from Africa right?
Maybe that's too hot for you, I understand, I won't trouble you again you're probably tired from feeding folks at the homeless shelter?
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I don't know what you're talking about. We're talking abut life and death. Specifically, people who want other people to die for a cause they themselves (theoretically) believe in. It's not about the money, or the time, or effort.
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Revolution - what revolution ? We'll just hire Hessians too.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I don't know what you're talking about. We're talking abut life and death. Specifically, people who want other people to die for a cause they themselves (theoretically) believe in. It's not about the money, or the time, or effort.
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Revolution - what revolution ? We'll just hire Hessians too.
I disagree. Surely money, time and effort are all worth less than a life? Yet my guess is that very few of you are actually willing to do even that for the causes you "believe" in.
But ok if you want to play the dire danger card I'll play. I'm sure you believe in law and order, so you're a cop right? You expect someone to risk their lives rescuing you from a fire so obviously you yourself are a volenteer firefighter?
No?
So you have no problem expecting these folks to die in your defence but you yourself dont join up. Coward, hypocrite.
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You're sure I believe in 'law and order' ? You must have been reading someone else's posts all along. 
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
very few of you are actually willing to do even that for the causes you "believe" in.
But ok if you want to play the dire danger card I'll play. I'm sure you believe in law and order, so you're a cop right? You expect someone to risk their lives rescuing you from a fire so obviously you yourself are a volenteer firefighter?
No?
So you have no problem expecting these folks to die in your defence but you yourself dont join up. Coward, hypocrite.
Great points!
I'm sure they also want & expect :
Clean water?....go work for the water company
Sewage removal?...go work at a waste treatment plant
Child's education?...become a substitute teacher or tutor
Good roads?....go out and pave some
Electricity?......go fly a kite with a key on the end hooked up to your schvance
Disaster Relief ( ala Katrina )...what'd you do?
Their's is an absurd argument, as always.
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The other problem I have with it is that things like education, clean water, even 'law and order' are considered necessities. There's no argument about whether or not it should be done, though the how might be debated.
Iraq OTOH was entirely optional. So it's appropriate to test the sincerity of its proponents. Optional for who, exactly ?
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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And now that I have a (very few) minutes - FWIW Fletch my priorities are my family, my job and the environment. So it's a good thing my job is the environment.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
And now that I have a (very few) minutes - FWIW Fletch my priorities are my family, my job and the environment. So it's a good thing my job is the environment.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
So when your house burns down you don't care about people turning up to try and save your family?
This is important to me. My brother is a fireman which means that he's paid to risk his life to save strangers. None of the people he has to save are worth as much to me as he is and I have no real stake in any of them. If I was of a narrow frame of mind I could argue that saving any one of them is "optional."
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Boy are you being stupid today. Where did I say I didn't care ? I just listed the top three.
And, BTW, what does this have to do with asking people to walk their talk when it comes to entirely the optional killing and dying of Iraq ? Not that you'd try to derail a discussion when you had nothing valid to add or anything ....
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:God, now THAT'S a stupid argument! I'm not forcing people, or even encouraging people, to do those things. What I believe in, I do. What they believe in, they do. But I DON'T make others do it for me.
Idon't know how you have time to post from all your humanitarian work in Africa, not to mention all that peacekeeping work you do? I mean you BELIEVE in that stuff right? So you must be posting via your Peace Corp account via satelite from Africa right?
Maybe that's too hot for you, I understand, I won't trouble you again you're probably tired from feeding folks at the homeless shelter?
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Iraq OTOH was entirely optional. So it's appropriate to test the sincerity of its proponents. Optional for who, exactly ?
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
The operative part there is "IMHO" ie "in your opinion" since last time I checked your opinion doesnt determine the military or foreign policy of the United States this question is moot.
If you are completely honest all wars are "optional" even the war against Japan could have been dodged if you really wanted. You could have taken the 2000 odd casualties and ceeded the Pacific to the Empire of Japan. Surely 2000 dead was better than the 100's of thousands finally killed? The country as a whole via it's elected representatives decides which wars to fight without reference to the opinion of the infallable Rue. They do this though a professional military who are hired, trained and paid with a view to using them to fight wars, just like the fire department hires firefighters with the view to fighting fires. It is a job for which people are paid in the expectations that some risk might be involved like many other jobs as far ranging as cops and high steel workers.
I work in a high building, I do not work high steel though in theory people risked their lives (and perhaps died) to create the building I use. I expect safe streets and I pay people to risk their lives to make that happen. That does not mean I strap on a gun myself.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:God, now THAT'S a stupid argument! I'm not forcing people, or even encouraging people, to do those things. What I believe in, I do. What they believe in, they do. But I DON'T make others do it for me.
Idon't know how you have time to post from all your humanitarian work in Africa, not to mention all that peacekeeping work you do? I mean you BELIEVE in that stuff right? So you must be posting via your Peace Corp account via satelite from Africa right?
Maybe that's too hot for you, I understand, I won't trouble you again you're probably tired from feeding folks at the homeless shelter?
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Always look upstream.
The point is that you dont go and do them yourself. Your dumb idea is that if you believe in something put up or shut up but you dont put up yourself for the things you believe in.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
We have jobs. Got paid last Friday. Am planning on buying a new computer and paying for my expensive vacation. About a third of my check went to buy ammunition and flak vests for the boys in Iraq...none went to the National Endowment for the Arts, thats were your money goes if you oppose the war.
My post did not address how our rights and responsibilities as citizens overlap with our obligation to fight in Iraq. If you are in the age range of enlisting, AND if you are in favor of the war, you should go without making excuses...unless that's too great a sacrifice!If you're not willing to go shoot at terrorists yourself, you should'nt be so quick to send people to thier possible deaths, thats....whaddya call it....hypocritical, or oppulent (sort of)
It doesn't matter if you're out of shape Hero, boot camp will change that. Don't even start to compare yourself with Rosie the Riveter either, there was a labor shortage then. So....I restate...Your war effort doesn't need you to pay taxes and have Sunday BBQ's as much as it needs you to man-up and fight for our boys. Something tells me there are lots of our fighting men over there that DO NOT support the war like you do, even though they say they do, or maybe they've done 3 tours!, and would gladly let you take thier place.
Tell me....if you were drafted...would that change your opinion about keeping this tragic war going?
If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Wow, you really had to walk a few blocks out of your way to avoid that one. So I'll be explicit, since I want an answer. Rap - since you are all for the war in Iraq, why don't you go fight there?Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
How about you Rap ?
Originally posted by AURaptor:
How about me what ? Give any credence to this silly thread? Naw....I think not.
My reasons are my own. By your logic, I can't root for an football team unless I sign up and play football. I can't listen to music unless I can sing or play an instruemnt. This petty tactic of trying to shame folks into signing up for an entire life style just so you can claim some imaginary moral high ground is as phoney as it gets.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Actually, I'll make the suggestion to you a third time, Hero.
Private contractor forces over there are in rather desperate need of some form of J.A.G. type services, to keep things orderly and limit potential legal and other liabilities, and given your experience, you would qualify for the work, probably at a substantial pay bump, too.
There goes your excuse.
Me, I'm old, slow, half-blind and in poor health, but if I really, truly *believe* in something, I go to it and get personally involved, but I'm crazy like that.
If you don't qualify for military enlistment, you could always work for Haliburton/KBR/Blackwater/etc, I hear the money's good and no one gives a damn if you shoot the locals, since you folks seem to hate anyone who ain't american anyways.
But please, continue to bleat pathetically, your inventive excuses are amusing.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
P.S. Pearl Harbor - go read the fekkin history, the truth of that one's finally come out too, it wasn't a surprise, and the Gov deliberately and maliciously provoked it via an eight step program designed to cause exactly that while hanging our personnel out to dry so that they'd have an excuse to get us involved in WWII to the profit of their imperial agenda and corporate friends in spite of american sentiment against it.
http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=408
"7 Oct 1940 - Navy IQ analyst McCollum wrote an 8 point memo on how to force Japan into war with US. Beginning the next day FDR began to put them into effect and all 8 were eventually accomplished."
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Fletch and Rap,
Both of you appeared to have breezed past my earlier response just to repeat a meaningless argument. Though Fletch tried to divert the point by saying 'all wars are optional'. Maybe he should talk to the few remaining Polish soldiers who fought when Germany rolled over their country. There is such a thing as fighting for survival.
Iraq was not a fight for survival, not even close.
It was concocted in what I think of as the perfect storm of mendacity. PNAC got their ME opportunity, Halliburton got billions of tax $$$$ for nothing, oil interests if nothing else blocked France and Russian development contracts, the rapturites who apparently don't trust god's inscrutable timetable want to make it all happen, there were no WMD (poink poink poink Rap 
), there were no links between 9/11 and Iraq ... and on and on and on.
So, if I may repeat myself since you both missed it the first time "things like education, clean water, even 'law and order' are considered necessities. There's no argument about whether or not it should be done, though the how might be debated.
Iraq OTOH was entirely optional. So it's appropriate to test the sincerity of its proponents. Optional for who, exactly ?
And, BTW, what does this have to do with asking people to walk their talk when it comes to entirely the optional killing and dying of Iraq ? Not that you'd try to derail a discussion when you had nothing valid to add or anything ...."
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Fletch and Rap,
Both of you appeared to have breezed past my earlier response just to repeat a meaningless argument. Though Fletch tried to divert the point by saying 'all wars are optional'. Maybe he should talk to the few remaining Polish soldiers who fought when Germany rolled over their country. There is such a thing as fighting for survival.
I agree, wars of genocide are not optional wars. However I would argue that most wars America has fought have not been for survival and COULD by your definition be considered optional. I would even say that the American people thought that too, we could have really used your help in Sept 1939 when the Poles you talk so elequently about were fighting for their survival. You decided that war was "optional" until Dec 41.
The point is that you could have ignored Pearl Harbor, or made peace with Japan rather than risk more American lives over teritory that was not the US mainland. I'm sure that had FDR offered to end hostilities as long as Japan did not attack Hawaii the Japanese would have accepted. How many young Americans would have lived in that case?
I'm not saying it's the right thing to do but any time a country sends troops to defend anywhere that is not part of it's contiguous territory that decision is "optional." Imperial Japan could not have defeated the USA and occupied the mainland. In that context the War in teh Pacific was not one of survival and by your definition "optional."
Quote:
It was concocted in what I think of as the perfect storm of mendacity. PNAC got their ME opportunity, Halliburton got billions of tax $$$$ for nothing, oil interests if nothing else blocked France and Russian development contracts, the rapturites who apparently don't trust god's inscrutable timetable want to make it all happen, there were no WMD (poink poink poink Rap
And who knows you may be right. Pity the party you support didn't make even a token showing of opposition, pity most of the American people supported the action. Guess they didn't care what you thought, boy do they look foolish now. You should crow some more and tell us what you think....
Oh you are... carry on.
Quote:
So, if I may repeat myself since you both missed it the first time "things like education, clean water, even 'law and order' are considered necessities. There's no argument about whether or not it should be done, though the how might be debated.
Iraq OTOH was entirely optional. So it's appropriate to test the sincerity of its proponents. Optional for who, exactly ?
See my comments on US optional wars. So who decides a war is optional Rue? Do you do that with what we have established is your infallability? Or do we leave that to our elected representatives who punted rather than you know, do what they are paid for? I would argue you don't get to decide, but assuming you do you going to draft the majority of Americans who thought it was a good idea in 2003? Or is this what we know it is passive agressive posturing from someone who simply doesnt count and whose opinions don't actually have any more import than any of us.
Rue likes welfare, say since she likes it why doesnt she pay triple, put her cash where her mouth is.
See we can all have the same kind of dumb ideas.
Quote:
And, BTW, what does this have to do with asking people to walk their talk when it comes to entirely the optional killing and dying of Iraq ? Not that you'd try to derail a discussion when you had nothing valid to add or anything ...."
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
You don't accept what we say is valid because your argument is bogus. I guess you probably are against starvation in Africa but I dont see you out there doing something about it. Dont see you with a rifle defending refugees in Darfur either but I b
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Quote:
It was concocted in what I think of as the perfect storm of mendacity. PNAC got their ME opportunity, Halliburton got billions of tax $$$$ for nothing, oil interests if nothing else blocked France and Russian development contracts, the rapturites who apparently don't trust god's inscrutable timetable want to make it all happen, there were no WMD (poink poink poink Rap ), there were no links between 9/11 and Iraq ... and on and on and on.
You and I see things entirely differently. This has far less to do w/ PNAC , Haliburton or rapturites. And yes, there were WMD.
It's pointless to deny that, the debate is over.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Mal, Rue, Signy, Chris
How do you feel about the American forces in Afghanistan?
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I sense a diversion coming on ....
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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fLetch,
Seriously, your answer makes no sense.
You add in stupid requirements (it can't just be an attack ANY territory like Hawaii or Alaska to be war, it has to be contiguous territory ! Or maybe Alaska would be an exception b/c though all non-contiguous territory is equal, some is more equal than others !)
You seem to blame "my" party - which was out of power - for the war, rather than the repubicans in power who cooked the intel and lied their asses off to everyone ... (not sure why you seem to think I shouldn't crow - I knew the war was bogus from day 1 and said so, so I was right, unlike you.)
"See my comments on US optional wars ...
See we can all have the same kind of dumb ideas." This is rather sadly scrmabled, I'm not sure what your point is, really. Care to rephrase ?
"You don't accept what we say is valid because your argument is bogus." So you say.
"Now if you want to talk about the unequal burden put on servicemen ... but you won't because that doesnt allow you to preach from what you think is a point of moral superiority." Actually, no. I'd love to talk about it. It just wasn't the topic of the thread.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Rap,
"You and I see things entirely differently. This has far less to do w/ PNAC , Haliburton or rapturites. And yes, there were WMD.
It's pointless to deny that, the debate is over."
I used to wonder how you could post these sort of things. But since SignyM uncovered your phenomenal ability to dismiss your senses, science, logic, and most of history, now I know how you manage. So now I don't even consider debating you anymore. You are in your own little folly which is pretty much disconnected from reality. You're not truamatized by 9/11, you've got bigger problems.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Letch,
I accept your surrender. You have a pattern Rue, the moment you give yout your childish "pet" names and start your ten year old stampy foot pouting is the moment you tend to realise your position is unsupportable.
We're done here.
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Went back and corrected it when I noticed. It's not a word that spell-checks so I tend to gloss over those.
Shhesh, anything to avoid the topic it seems ...
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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BTW, this is a sampling of your pattern:
"I don't know how you have time to post from all your humanitarian work in Africa ..."
ad hominem
"my guess is that very few of you are actually willing to do even that for the causes you "believe" in"
ad hominem
”I'm sure you believe in law and order"
not even sure what this one is, aside from a complete misunderstanding of everything I've ever posted
"So when your house burns down you don't care about people turning up to try and save your family?"
and yet another one
"If you are completely honest"
ad hominem
"all wars are "optional""
not true
"contiguous territory"
sigh ... not sure what this one is either, except it's you backing down from your mistake
"You should crow some more and tell us what you think.... Oh you are... carry on."
ad hominem
--------------------------------------------
What I see is YOUR pattern of unending slagging, none of which actually addresses the topic. Then you have the nerve to get bent all out of shape over a simple typo. And, scince you were so twisted over the typo when I left the "f" off, I can delightedly reply "f" to your name.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Rap,
"You and I see things entirely differently. This has far less to do w/ PNAC , Haliburton or rapturites. And yes, there were WMD.
It's pointless to deny that, the debate is over."
I used to wonder how you could post these sort of things. But since SignyM uncovered your phenomenal ability to dismiss your senses, science, logic, and most of history, now I know how you manage. So now I don't even consider debating you anymore. You are in your own little folly which is pretty much disconnected from reality. You're not truamatized by 9/11, you've got bigger problems.
So, when someone doesn't agree w/ you, you accuse them of dismissing their senses, science, logic and most of history? How quaint. Never a specific challenge to anything in particular with you, is it ? Naw..it's far easier to dismiss all your worries, out of hand, than to wallow on those pesky details and face facts, huh?
It's my recognition of science, history and logic which simply has you at odds, and unable to respond w/ any sort of coherent, mature reply. I get that. I really do. I'd just wish you'd be more honest about it with yourself and everyone else here. But we all know about wishes and horses, huh?
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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"a specific challenge to anything in particular with you, is it ?"
I spent many posts quoting speeches, the Senate Report, and any number of factual data to inform your opinions, which you just ignored. I'm not going to bother this time.
"It's my recognition of science, history and logic ..." OMG, you are seriously delusional. Out of curiosity, did you make it through high school earth science, chemistry, biology and physics ?
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:BDN, this is the ONLY valid question that has come out here. I was wrong; I said the only posts made in response would expose cowardice or hypocracy- I was wrong. Effin' stupidity and avoidance...that's what I'm seein. At least you asked a related question.
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Mal, Rue, Signy, Chris
How do you feel about the American forces in Afghanistan?
Afghanistan is a decision I could back, and we had (HAD!!!!) enough troops to deal with the Taliban in a timely fashion with minimal losses. My physical participation was not necessary.
Iraq, OTOH, is taking a great toll for nothing much, and peeps that don't get killed there just spend years there due to insufficient numbers to relieve them. They shouldn't be there.
You can't support both the war AND the troops.
I support the troops and want an end to this war of ours.
Others support this war. They should be fighting it.
Another pre-emptive effue from Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Afghanistan is a decision I could back, and we had (HAD!!!!) enough troops to deal with the Taliban in a timely fashion with minimal losses. My physical participation was not necessary.
In your humble opinion.
Quote:
Iraq, OTOH, is taking a great toll for nothing much, and peeps that don't get killed there just spend years there due to insufficient numbers to relieve them. They shouldn't be there.
But they are there and most are in agreement that up and leaving could be more ruinous. I hope the troops in Iraq believe they are there for a very good reason, to help stabilize that country and end the violence.
Quote:
You can't support both the war AND the troops.
Please expound.
Quote:
I support the troops and want an end to this war of ours.
Others support this war. They should be fighting it.
In your humble opinion.
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Quote:No, in my considered opinion.
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
In your humble opinion.
Quote:*muffled sardonic laugh*
But they are there and most are in agreement that up and leaving could be more ruinous. I hope the troops in Iraq believe they are there for a very good reason, to help stabilize that country and end the violence.
Quote:The war is a loss. Troops there will be also. To support a loss of idea is fine and dandy. To back that up with a loss of life is not. Pro-war directly = feed the troops into the physical and psychological grinder for a dumb idea. That is NOT supporting the troops. That's USING them. That IS supporting the war.
"You can't support both the war AND the troops."
Please expound.
End expound-y.
Quote:No, in my emotional, pissed-off opinion.
In your humble opinion.
GRRRRChrisisall
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It's always bullshit, it's always BEEN bullshit.
From "Remember the Maine"
To
The Gulf of Tonkin non-"Incident"
To
"Fight them over there so we don't fight em here"
To
Niger, Yellowcake, and "Mushroom Clouds", it's always, always been bullshit.
And it's always been for the same reasons, just ask Smedley Butler.
I would lay good odds that if the very FIRST thing we did in a war was nationalise the related industries and force them to run at-cost, rather than at a profit - our record of military intervention from 1890 to present would be zilch, zip, and nada.
As for Osama, he's been dead since approx December 2001 of kidney failure, somewhere on the Paki border, so it's rather pointless to go chasing him now, unless you wanna hire The Ghostbusters or something.
(And I wouldn't put THAT past those psycho lunatics at DARPA...)
But yeah, just keep incompetently sawing down the legs of that table called Iraq, but do it on your own fuckin dime, right-O ?
And send your own goddamn friends, if you have any, cause mine are runnin kinda thin these days..
Oh, and while you're at it, try and think me up a good way to explain to his wife that SGLI didn't cover him cause he got yoinked in from IRR and didn't get the chance to update the paperwork before they sent him into the hot zone....
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"a specific challenge to anything in particular with you, is it ?"
I spent many posts quoting speeches, the Senate Report, and any number of factual data to inform your opinions, which you just ignored. I'm not going to bother this time.
"It's my recognition of science, history and logic ..." OMG, you are seriously delusional. Out of curiosity, did you make it through high school earth science, chemistry, biology and physics ?
Spent many a post, have you? Well why don't you offer up an example which shows my lack of....oh, that 's right. You don't want to bother. Ok.
I made it through both HS and college level science courses, where required, including biology, meteorology, and geology. Why do you ask?
When you have a point, please, feel free to share it.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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This is fast and dirty, because it's 3AM and I'm tired.
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
BTW, this is a sampling of your pattern:
Before we get to that let's talk your pattern.
It goes something like this.
1) start an argument
2) Lay down the word according to Rue in grand general terms.
3) Start to lose an argument, which you always do because reality and the wonderfull world of Rue never do line up quite as nicely as you would like.
4) On discovering that you are losing deny the oposition the privilage of being able to argue in the same general terms that you do. Nit-pick their argument to death, after all it's better to nit pick the fine detail of sneaker production lines than to allow your oponent to make a general point.
The semi amusing thing is that Peter Cook used to do a comedy routine based on the same idea, where he would ask clarification of every minute detail of a joke another person was trying to tell him. When Peter did it it was funny, when you do it it gets old fast.
Casual has figured a way around it. He's basically locked you into a theological discussion so arcane that you have hardly any idea what he's talking about. Therefore you are afraid to nit-pick in the fear of looking stupid. That is incidentally why you are losing so badly, you cant desend into the minutary to try and sidetrack your losing argument.
Now back to your point.
Quote:
"I don't know how you have time to post from all your humanitarian work in Africa ..."
ad hominem
Actually sarcasm, what you usually do to deflate someone pressing a "holyier than thou" viewpoint.
Quote:
"my guess is that very few of you are actually willing to do even that for the causes you "believe" in"
ad hominem
See above
Quote:
”I'm sure you believe in law and order"
not even sure what this one is, aside from a complete misunderstanding of everything I've ever posted
Actually no I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I had thought that if some ahole was terrorising families in your neighborhood you'd want the police to you know... stop them maybe? After all it's ok to be "right on" about being against "the pigs" until they are the ones keeping folks from murdering your family.
If I got that wrong, if your political leanings are such that you think it's cool to let murderers and rapists run wild in your neighbourhood then consider the statement retracted. Wouldn't want to misrepresent anyone, that's Sigies job.
Quote:
"So when your house burns down you don't care about people turning up to try and save your family?"
and yet another one
try exasperation.
Quote:
"If you are completely honest"
ad hominem
Figure of speech
Quote:
"all wars are "optional""
not true
see bellow
Quote:
"contiguous territory"
sigh ... not sure what this one is either, except it's you backing down from your mistake
Actually removing amunition because the next thing you would do is argue that an attack on Hawaii is an attack on the United States, which would in turn be a nit pick to avoid the point.
Quote:
"You should crow some more and tell us what you think.... Oh you are... carry on."
ad hominem
Glad to see you go0t one right.
F- I think :)
Ok because we have Miss Nit Pick we will go through this argument one step at a time in painfull detail (to head off nit picker Rue we acknowledge in advance that all statements given are summerized for brevity rather than cut and pasted from 30 odd posts. It's late, I have to be up early tomorrow and I dont give a toss. Deal
1) The openner: "If you guys believe in this war so much you should be out in Bagdad with an M16.... If you dont you are a coward/hypocrite"
2) The reply is in 2 parts
a) The military is a job like any number of other equally dangerous jobs. Believing the job needs to be done is not the same as being obligated to do the job yourself. If it were then we wo
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
But they are there and most are in agreement that up and leaving could be more ruinous. I hope the troops in Iraq believe they are there for a very good reason, to help stabilize that country and end the violence.
*muffled sardonic laugh*
Great rebuttal.
As stated before in this thread, most Americans were for the Iraq invasion at the outset. Now you want to cut and run and leave the mess for somebody else to clean up because it's too hard. And it is not the toll on the American troops that has me concerned, it's the toll on the Iraqi civilians. Like it or not, America started this and should rightly see it to the end.
Do you really think the Sunnis will stop killing the Shias or vice versa when the Americans leave? Do you think the terrorists will go along their merry if the Americans leave? Do you think Saudi Arabia and Iran will not enter Iraq when the Americans leave?
Quote:Why does the anti-war movement always say 'this war was a mistake'? True or not, unless you have unlocked the secrets of time, this is a moot point. While you do seem to respect the living soldiers, your lack of respect for the deceased and what they and their families may or may not have believed in is callous IMHO.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
The war is a loss. Troops there will be also. To support a loss of idea is fine and dandy. To back that up with a loss of life is not. Pro-war directly = feed the troops into the physical and psychological grinder for a dumb idea. That is NOT supporting the troops. That's USING them. That IS supporting the war.
Try not to let passion overcome reason, some say that was how America got into Iraq in the first place.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Mal, Rue, Signy, Chris
How do you feel about the American forces in Afghanistan?
Is that Mal as in me? Am I a RWED'er now? (little hesitant squeeee!)
OK, here's my fantasy - although I'm not near idealistic enough to think any this will actually happen.
1) Bush and Cheney get impeached. Soon.
2) Whoever takes their place issues an apology to the world, and lets everyone know that not all Americans are greedy imperialistic psychopaths.
3) Halliburton and their ilk have their asses fined, and I mean fined hard enough to put these companies in the graveyard, and the leaders who used their buddy-buddy-ness with Cheney and much creative accounting to steal our tax money are put in jail.
4) The money taken back from Halliburton, and all the billions we're wasting on this "war", should be partly given to the Iraqi government and Iraqi companies to rebuild their country's infrastucture and outfit their own army, and if they squabble it away in their own in-fighting, it's their problem because our troups would be OUT and HOME by then. We do similar reparation in Afganistan. And I'm saying - we don't continue to take over these countries and rape them of their resources for our own profit, but we give them aid and stand back, letting them choose their own path. If they go down the toilet, so be it. It's none of our business.
6) We devote ourselves to going after OBL, doing it carefully so we quit killing innocents and creating more enemies.
You may say I'm a dreamer...
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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
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Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Mal, Rue, Signy, Chris
How do you feel about the American forces in Afghanistan?
Is that Mal as in me? Am I a RWED'er now? (little hesitant squeeee!)
OK, here's my fantasy - although I'm not near idealistic enough to think any this will actually happen.
1) Bush and Cheney get impeached. Soon.
2) Whoever takes their place issues an apology to the world, and lets everyone know that not all Americans are greedy imperialistic psychopaths.
3) Halliburton and their ilk have their asses fined, and I mean fined hard enough to put these companies in the graveyard, and the leaders who used their buddy-buddy-ness with Cheney and much creative accounting to steal our tax money are put in jail.
4) The money taken back from Halliburton, and all the billions we're wasting on this "war", should be partly given to the Iraqi government and Iraqi companies to rebuild their country's infrastucture and outfit their own army, and if they squabble it away in their own in-fighting, it's their problem because our troups would be OUT and HOME by then. We do similar reparation in Afganistan. And I'm saying - we don't continue to take over these countries and rape them of their resources for our own profit, but we give them aid and stand back, letting them choose their own path. If they go down the toilet, so be it. It's none of our business.
6) We devote ourselves to going after OBL, doing it carefully so we quit killing innocents and creating more enemies.
You may say I'm a dreamer...
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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
Seems like a plan I can live with.....
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Well Fletch,
You've nicely hijacked the thread with a flame war.
GOOD JOB !!!
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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I guess you can see anything if you use the right filters.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Well Fletch,
You've nicely hijacked the thread with a flame war.
GOOD JOB !!!
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
Well you could say that, or you could say I just proved your premise bogus and as such you no longer get to do your self rightious act. I think most people will see I stayed on topic, just that I see the topic for what it is, political posturing, and refuse to ceed its legitimacy.
Like I said most wars, even flame wars are optional. The only way this one could have been avoided would be if people capitulated to your demand that the "grab an M16" idea had any validity. Since no one did hostilities began.
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At the end of the day (literally) I'll get back to this. Meanwhile, I have work to do.
AH, I remember, I am not going home tonight, I have a family commitment. And tomorrow I'll be back at work. Strange how that happens. Maybe tomorrow evening, if this thread hasn't gotton too far down the list, or too long to try and catch up on.
You see, not only do I have a life, it's a very busy one, doing all those things you presume I don't do.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
At the end of the day (literally) I'll get back to this. Meanwhile, I have work to do.
AH, I remember, I am not going home tonight, I have a family commitment. And tomorrow I'll be back at work. Strange how that happens. Maybe tomorrow evening, if this thread hasn't gotton too far down the list, or too long to try and catch up on.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
So what you are saying is that when other people don't post within minutes you and Sig get to do the "Timer" thing suggesting the other person's position is weak because they are not immediately available to defend it, but when "real life" delays your answer to a point where people will have to do real work to see your nit picking "quotes" in original context we have to let it ride?
Nice Rue and you're right "strange how that happens."
Just to let you know I'm done with this thread. I don't want to have to deal with your out-of-context quotes and nit picking 3 or 4 days later. I can't think of any sport where one player gets a timeout and gets to rest up where the other is expected to continue with the game. I think your premise has been debunked and I'm done here. Should you have any constructive ideas about the topics I raised earlier start a new thread and we will discuss them.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Mal, Rue, Signy, Chris
How do you feel about the American forces in Afghanistan?
I lack a credible source on how things are going over there, so I won't judge. And don't you dare for one minute try to send me to some conservative blog or Fox News for disinformation. But since were on the subject, my curiosity has gotten the better of me, how do you feel about the American forces in Afghanistan?
If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.
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Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Tell me....if you were drafted...would that change your opinion about keeping this tragic war going?
No. I believe in the war and I believe that the all-volunteer military is the reason why our soldiers are the highest educated, best trained, best equiped, and most capable fighting force ever assembled in the history of man (although I just saw 300 and lets face it...Spartans rule).
My support for the war and the American military does not require me to don the uniform any more then my support for the Browns requires me to take the field this coming September 9th when the whup the Steelers to open the season. I buy tickets and watch the games and everything I can to support the team, but putting me on the field would be a HUGE mistake for me, the team, and all of humanity.
H
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Have to say Fletch, your comparison to joining the VFD doesn't work for me. The VFD, at every level, is all about saving innocents. The Iraq war is most emphatically not. Now, it would be an apt comparison if members of the VFD were ordered to risk their lives while *setting* fires, and in the process killing innocents and hence suffering guilt and PTSD for the rest of their lives.
And before you interpret me wrong - I believe the vast majority of our armed forces are doing their jobs honorably and with the purest of intentions. But our leaders have sold this war based on flat out lies, and they're taking all the profit and suffering none of the risk.
So, what Rue's pointing out is that if you think this war is worth dying for, but you're not willing to take the risk on yourself, you're a hypocrit just as bad as Cheney. Hmm... kind of like my theory that every policy-maker should experience a questioning technique before classifying it as Not Torture. A little water boarding, Mr. Rummy?
EDITED TWICE: Hero, you're seriously comparing a soldier going to fight in an unjust war to you playing in a football game? Ummm....
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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
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Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Have to say Fletch, your comparison to joining the VFD doesn't work for me. The VFD, at every level, is all about saving innocents. The Iraq war is most emphatically not.
So, what Rue's pointing out is that if you think this war is worth dying for, but you're not willing to take the risk on yourself, you're a hypocrit just as bad as Cheney.
But that's a value judgement, more to the point YOUR value judgement. The reason that I mentioned the VFD is that there are activities which we as a society believe should be done and which involve personal risk. We are not expected to back our opinion that something "should be done" by an obligation to do it ourselves. If it's not expected for those activities why should it be for the war?
Let's get specific then if you like. I recently heard the actor Don Cheddle lobbying for people to "do something" about the Darfur genocide. The "do something" part probably means putting UN or African Union troops in the field to defend civilians and protect refuge camps. These troops are someone's sons and daughters and some will probably come back in a bodybag. If your reasoning is followed through on is Mr Cheddle obligated to pick up a gun and head for Darfor? Is the price of being allowed to advocate an opinion the obligation to back it up with his own direct action? If he doesn't pick up a gun and fly to Darfor to replace a UN or AU peacekeeper do we have a right to call him a coward and a hypocrite and ignore what he says?
Or does the idea that you should back your opinion with your life only apply if that opinion is opposite to yours?
I'm kind of interested in your response for the following reason. My sister used to date an Iraqi Kurd, this was back in the 90's before Bush/Cheyne or any of that stuff happened. As is common in Iraq his family was large and extended which meant that he had relatives that had been gassed, persecuted and any number of other things. If you spoke with him you wouldn't be in any doubt that Saddam and his cronies were some evil SOB's. Like Don Chedle I wanted something to be "done about it" because I don't happen to think that regimes that rape daughters to shame and punish fathers should be allowed to continue. So for me it didn't matter if there were WMD's or not as long as Sadam wasn't in a position to keep doing what he was doing.
So you see I have activist guilt. Like Mr Cheddle my belief that somebody should do something to stop the bad people means I'm voting someone else into a bodybag. I'm a serial offender, I thought the same about Kosovo too and Darfor if it comes to that. Thinking back lots of folks thought Kosovo was a great idea don't recall any purity test insisting you pick up an M16 to support that one either.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
At the end of the day (literally) I'll get back to this. Meanwhile, I have work to do.
AH, I remember, I am not going home tonight, I have a family commitment. And tomorrow I'll be back at work. Strange how that happens. Maybe tomorrow evening, if this thread hasn't gotton too far down the list, or too long to try and catch up on.
You see, not only do I have a life, it's a very busy one, doing all those things you presume I don't do.
I, for one, applaud you on your work ethic and committment to family. Even if we don't agree on anything else.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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I disagree with the assesment of our forces being well trained, although our scale of equipment and education levels may be better, we still train to nearly musket-line tactics in Basic, and are still using a 2GW tactical doctrine against a 4GW opponent who, while less educated and poorly equipped, knows the local culture and politics intimately - something our troops for the most part do not know, and thanks to deliberately-instilled xenophobia in basic, actually resist learning.
They may be well trained, but it's not the RIGHT training, in many cases, for the jobs that they're trying to do, and it's even worse in second and third rate supply units, many members of whom are non-quals called up off IRR to fill in the holes, equipped with vietnam leftover M16A1's IF they have rifles at all.
Smarter CO's have allowed convoy personnel to use locally procured and/or captured AK's, it's a handier weapon inside a vehicle, and quite effective at suppressive/defensive fire ranges, which also conserves our 5.56Nato ammo cause we're badly short on that at this time.
Our rigid chain of command structure also counts against us, being based on Napoleonic Doctrine, and in the case of a failure of communications or loss of established leadership, in many cases this results in the complete paralysis of the unit, rendering it's battlefield effectiveness in anything but an emplaced defensive position about nil.
If we've learned anything at all from this mess, it's that our training programs need to be radically revised for the modern age - that should have happened after vietnam, but budget and other considerations made that politically impossible at the time.
I would *highly* reccommend pulling some ground pounders who have learned the hard way out in the sandbox, back to the states and breveting them as cadre to update our current training programs - not the officers sitting in cushy air conditioned offices in the green zone, but the guys out in the teeth of this mess who've seen and figured out what works and what doesn't.
And I hold THAT opinion regardless of my opinion that this whole war was stupid, futile and pointless - we still need to update training, and badly, in order for our forces to be any kind of defensive deterrent at all.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:My friend's cousin was in Iraq, for a while. He had no illusions about why we were there, he was just doing his job, and tried (successfully) to get home in one piece with his buddies. You don't need to delude yourself to be focused.
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
*muffled sardonic laugh*
Great rebuttal.
Quote:So we reward asshats with a follow-thru. Teach 'em that as long as we start something, no matter how ill-conceived , we will go all the way. They initiate, we all follow. Uh...no.
Like it or not, America started this and should rightly see it to the end.
Quote:With us or without us, that won't stop. Taking out Saddam began their civil war, like it or not.
Do you really think the Sunnis will stop killing the Shias or vice versa when the Americans leave?
Quote:They died for a dumb idea, period. Get over it. Water is usually wet, too. I won't sugar coat it and happily send off more to their deaths to make peeps feel better about their loss. They SHOULD be outraged and s**t!!!! My concern for the living trumps all other 'touchy-feely' matters.
?
your lack of respect for the deceased and what they and their families may or may not have believed in is callous IMHO.
Colour me callous Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
But that's a value judgement, more to the point YOUR value judgement. The reason that I mentioned the VFD is that there are activities which we as a society believe should be done and which involve personal risk. We are not expected to back our opinion that something "should be done" by an obligation to do it ourselves. If it's not expected for those activities why should it be for the war?
I think there's a difference, Fletch. With this war, there's a big big difference.
However, I agree with you on one thing: Part of why society works is that not everyone has to do everything. We can't all be soldiers, and yet we all have a responsibility to form and voice our opinions. So I'm not out to tell you to join up or shut up. But, I still think your VFD comparison was poor
I'm taking kind of a weaker shade of Rue's side on this argument. I'm not out to bash you as much as, say... the supply companies that hire some poor schmoe from Kansas to drive a rig of supplies through Iraq with not even a gun to defend himself, and then take away his bonus pay when he gets shot and doesn't finish his year. That's the stuff that burns me.
Also - taking up guns isn't the only way to support a cause. If I were to get serious about Darfur, I wouldn't go running over there with a rocket launcher. But I might step away from my day job and try to raise awareness and money about it, something that fits my less violence-centered mentality. (Um... I must admit I have no idea who Don Cheddle is.)
But I do understand your feelings about Iraq. My feelings in 2003 were similar, that I wanted Saddam out. But I wanted him out in a way that would lead to a better situation, and it was clear to me then that Bush was going about this in a way sure to alienate the entire world and make the whole situation worse. Which is exactly what's happened.
His motivations were wrong. The US got into Iraq and secured those oil rigs long before we even looked at WMD sites. And we didn't give a shit about the people - the residents of Fallujah said thank you very much can you leave us to rebuild now? We said no way, and we kept our gunman there and took control of their town. Now we're eating the country's wealth, giving it to international companies rather than to the Iraqis themselves. We. Have. No. Right.
I was in Kuwait a few months ago, and I talked to folks from all over the Middle East, including Iraq, and they're saying that *it's not better than Saddam's time*. This one man can't even drive his daughter to school. I mean - can you imagine living like that? I don't know where you are, but can you even imagine not being able to take your kid to school in the neighboring suburb without passing bombed buildings and blood stains and checkpoints held by foreigners with machine guns? Can you imagine getting woken up in a midnight raid on your house, guns in your face, with no choice but to take it? And yet, you think it's okay for Americans to do this to someone else?
Yeah, obviously this is an issue that rouses passion, sorry if I got heated and tangential. I just think that the same Americans (I don't mean you, Fletch) who are so eager to kill those evil Iraqis for not lying down and letting us walk on them would be the first to start setting pipe bombs if anyone did to us what we're doing to the Iraqis. Pure hypocrisy. It's disgusting.
-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
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Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
I lack a credible source on how things are going over there, so I won't judge. And don't you dare for one minute try to send me to some conservative blog or Fox News for disinformation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_%282001%E2%80%93presen
t%29
Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
But since were on the subject, my curiosity has gotten the better of me, how do you feel about the American forces in Afghanistan?
Did no one ever tell you not to answer a question with a question?
The present conflict in Afghanistan is NATO / UN sanctioned. If you agree in the legitimacy of foreign troops in Afghanistan and their mission than sign up now. If it is the welfare of the troops which concerns you why no outrage regarding Afghanistan? If civilian deaths concern you, there are plenty in Afghanistan. Again, why no outrage from you?
To answer your question, I have nothing but respect for the American and other national (Canada) forces and the work they are doing in Afghanistan.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_%282001%E2%80%93presen
t%29
The present conflict in Afghanistan is NATO / UN sanctioned. If you agree in the legitimacy of foreign troops in Afghanistan and their mission than sign up now. If it is the welfare of the troops which concerns you why no outrage regarding Afghanistan? If civilian deaths concern you, there are plenty in Afghanistan. Again, why no outrage from you?
To answer your question, I have nothing but respect for the American and other national (Canada) forces and the work they are doing in Afghanistan
Christ almighty Nobody, wikipedia is credible on how the war in afghanistan is doing???? I'm not in favor of any of our military endevours. Out Now Everywhere! And this is the lamest attempt so far to turn the tables on my original thread. So I'll get us back on track here. "If you ARE IN FAVOR of the war in Iraq...You are a coward and a hypocrit if you send others off to die because you are a afriad to go, that's right! afraid to go fight for the cause you perpetuate with your support. And in answer to your question...I have nothing but respect for the American and other national (Canada) forces and the work they are doing in Afghanistan. Also, no warmongers have given one good reason for not enlisting, you pro war guys just try to deflect the topic. Pro war people have much experience deflecting reality, so I expect nothing less. I want all our boys home to thier Mom's now. Not off fighting a war in your place when you could go
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Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Christ almighty Nobody, wikipedia is credible on how the war in afghanistan is doing????
I figured it would get you off and running on the topic. It's not like there is some conspiracy to mask all information regarding the conflict. Your ignorance on the subject has much more to do with you than trouble finding a 'credible source'.
Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
I'm not in favor of any of our military endevours. Out Now Everywhere!
Damn the consequences, isolationism!
Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
And this is the lamest attempt so far to turn the tables on my original thread. So I'll get us back on track here. "If you ARE IN FAVOR of the war in Iraq...You are a coward and a hypocrit if you send others off to die because you are a afriad to go, that's right! afraid to go fight for the cause you perpetuate with your support.
If Fletch's point about the error of your argument hasn't sunk in yet than there is nothing that I can say to change that.
Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
And in answer to your question...I have nothing but respect for the American and other national (Canada) forces and the work they are doing in Afghanistan.
Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
I'm not in favor of any of our military endevours. Out Now Everywhere!
?
Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Also, no warmongers have given one good reason for not enlisting, you pro war guys just try to deflect the topic. Pro war people have much experience deflecting reality, so I expect nothing less. I want all our boys home to thier Mom's now. Not off fighting a war in your place when you could go
If Fletch's point about the error of your argument hasn't sunk in yet than there is nothing that I can say to change that.
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I see someone else has noticed the recent rightwingnut troll infestation of Wiki...
Sad that, cause it still has great potential as an information source - but with any net based info, as always, Caveat Emptor.
Check, recheck, and crosscheck - it's the only way to sure.
-F
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
My friend's cousin was in Iraq, for a while. He had no illusions about why we were there, he was just doing his job, and tried (successfully) to get home in one piece with his buddies. You don't need to delude yourself to be focused.
Good point.
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
So we reward asshats with a follow-thru. Teach 'em that as long as we start something, no matter how ill-conceived , we will go all the way. They initiate, we all follow. Uh...no.
America will come into your country triggering total chaos. Then they will leave and say fix it yourselves. That is how you want the US to be perceived?
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Taking out Saddam began their civil war, like it or not.
A pretty good reason to stay and help stabilize, don't you think?
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
They died for a dumb idea, period. Get over it. Water is usually wet, too. I won't sugar coat it and happily send off more to their deaths to make peeps feel better about their loss. They SHOULD be outraged and s**t!!!! My concern for the living trumps all other 'touchy-feely' matters.
Your concern for the living Americans you mean.
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Nobody...you are an absolute waste of time to debate with
I don't care about Fletch's flawed Darfur analogy, and I am for neutrality ,otherwised demonized by Republicans when called Isolationism. I am not for any of our military endevours including Don Cheedle's Darfur.
You're so republicanized you just regurgitate Fox news ad nasium and don't know it.
No offense of course
If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.
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Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Nobody...you are an absolute waste of time to debate with
But that's why I come here to debate, to waste time.
Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
I don't care about Fletch's flawed Darfur analogy, and I am for neutrality ,otherwised demonized by Republicans when called Isolationism. I am not for any of our military endevours including Don Cheedle's Darfur.
That is your opinion and you are more than entitled to have it. Extend that same courtesy to others whose opinions you don't agree with.
Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
You're so republicanized you just regurgitate Fox news ad nasium and don't know it.
The be all and end all argument from the left. Because my opinion on certain matters differs from yours, I am simply regurgitating talking points.
Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
No offense of course
None taken.
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Ya know what I was hoping for Nobody...I was hoping for a pro war person to say:
A. Ya know...I do feel strongly about the war, and maybe I should go, since I support it, and it seems like the right thing.
OR
B. Wow!...when I picture myself actualy enlisting and going over there to get shot at....fuck that! I ain't gettin killed, maybe I'll rethink my stance on the war, maybe become anti-war or I'll be a hypocrit.
But I got nothin even close from all of the pro war people on this site. I know...it's naive to expect such empathetic behavior while our boys dieing over there. Instead they tried and tried to come up with flimsy analogies...probing for weakness's of the notion that they were either cowards or hypocrits. Whatever it takes to sleep at night I guess.
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Quote:
Whatever it takes to sleep at night I guess.
That's rather exactly it - nobody wants to admit we totally fucked it up from the get-go, and our incompetent flailing is just makin it worse.
Out, now.
And what I would tell Mohammed Q Iraqi ?
"Sorry dude, wasn't my idea, but at least we're leaving now before we fuck it up worse than we already have...
Here's an AK-47 and six clips, go home and live your life - anyone tries to harm you or take from you, put some of that ammo in em, that's as free as I can make you and as free as anyone on this planet gets, brother."
-Frem
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:Quote:
Whatever it takes to sleep at night I guess.
That's rather exactly it - nobody wants to admit we totally fucked it up from the get-go, and our incompetent flailing is just makin it worse.
Out, now.
And what I would tell Mohammed Q Iraqi ?
"Sorry dude, wasn't my idea, but at least we're leaving now before we fuck it up worse than we already have...
Here's an AK-47 and six clips, go home and live your life - anyone tries to harm you or take from you, put some of that ammo in em, that's as free as I can make you and as free as anyone on this planet gets, brother."
-Frem
Everyone, from the Right to the Left, understands that the " Out, now" approach isn't going to happen. It would make matters FAR worse.
Get use to us staying there. It's simply a fact of life you're gonna have to accept. Even Hillary knows it.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
If you are ages 18-30....And you're in favor of the war in Iraq, you have a moral obligation to enlist right now. And don't give me any of that stuff about the family you just started, plenty of our boys have given thier lives and had infants at home. People are dying right now because of your convictions....doesn't that affect you at all? Don't tell me that's not the only way to serve your country...It IS the only thing your country desperatly needs from you right now. You keep saying your country is in such peril from the people our brave boys face in the streets of Baghdad!.....Why are you pro war young people still sitting while people fight, suffer, and die in your stead.
Pro War Young People...go save Iraq yourself!
Let me ask this, as you are saying if you are pro war you should be compelled to serve, should not the reverse also hold true? The guys who are serving and are against this war should be on a plane home straight away.....
That would be something to see
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Quote:To be fair, saying someone has to fight in order to support a war is also an ad hominem.
Originally posted by rue:
ad hominem
Though expecting an army to fight a war you support, if you're not willing to support it materially, with increased taxes and possibly direct contributions like Frems care packages, does seem rather hollow. America has undertaken an incredibly expensive, and long-term military intervention, and I'm afraid the whizz bangs and pretty booms of the initial invasion aren't there to keep the war hawks entertained any more. All that remains is the cold hard reality (or the somewhat cushioned and manipulated reality of the 'impartial' Fox news), and unfortunately even the Fox news version doesn't include the pre-war promises of Iraqis throwing off their oppression and building democracy in three weeks flat as promised.
It's expensive building a country, I mean, usually it takes an entire country to do it, especially when you're doing it with the highest bidders, so a select few companies can make huge profits.
Fact is, if you support the war in Iraq, you've got to pony up just like everyone else when the tax man comes knocking, and at least have the respect for the people who are putting a lot more on the line than your 42" LCD, to do it without bitching and moaning about 'tax and spend' democrats, or liberals, or socialist or what the hell else.
It does seem that an awful lot of people who support this war, also feel it should be fought “not with ME, not with MY kids, not with MY money”. If you ain't prepared to take a hit, you ain't really supporting shit.
Not everyone has the responsibility of their life hanging on this, but everyone, no matter whether they support it or not, has the responsibility for paying for it. The least those that actually support this war can do is live up to their responsibility without whining about it.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
If you are ages 18-30....And you're in favor of the war in Iraq, you have a moral obligation to enlist right now. And don't give me any of that stuff about the family you just started
Interesting point. I guess if people support the war they should sign up for it. Well since all the right wing people would sign up to defend the country, I'd be worried about leaving the left wing home as they'd make wierd decisions about running the country. Kite flying might be cancelled and schools wouldn't be allowed to grade students exams as it might hurt the student's feelings.
I don't know that I support the current war. I do support the idea of creating a stable democracy in Iraq. I don't support the way America has gone about trying to succeed in this goal.
Revolutionising a country involves education. Education could involve an eduction lesson at a very young age against islamic extremism. I can't see Iraq government implementing a project like this at all in schools.
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Quote:Maybe you haven't been keepin' up on current events, pal, but that's exactly HOW we are perceived by most of the world- what others think of us is clearly not important- to ANY administration.
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
America will come into your country triggering total chaos. Then they will leave and say fix it yourselves. That is how you want the US to be perceived?
The best think we could have done is leave Saddam in power, and let a revolution take it's time. Forcing a rush to it was a mistake, at least the way it was done (NO forethought, I mean). So, your way is to stay and get our peeps shot up in the midst of what's gonna happen anyway in an attempt to perpetuate a sense of control that we really don't have now over there? Teach the powers that be over here that they can ALWAYS have their way in the military arena, decade after decade?
Not MY agenda, thanks.
American Chrisisall
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Quote:Mal, you are so appreciated by me here!
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Ya know what I was hoping for Nobody...I was hoping for a pro war person to say:
A. Ya know...I do feel strongly about the war, and maybe I should go, since I support it, and it seems like the right thing.
OR
B. Wow!...when I picture myself actually enlisting and going over there to get shot at....fuck that! I ain't gettin killed, maybe I'll rethink my stance on the war, maybe become anti-war or I'll be a hypocrite.
But I got nothin even close from all of the pro war people on this site. I know...it's naive to expect such empathetic behavior while our boys dieing over there. Instead they tried and tried to come up with flimsy analogies...probing for weakness's of the notion that they were either cowards or hypocrites. Whatever it takes to sleep at night I guess.
Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Let me ask this, as you are saying if you are pro war you should be compelled to serve, should not the reverse also hold true? The guys who are serving and are against this war should be on a plane home straight away.....
That would be something to see
Well, that makes me think...but before I go on....I actualy think that we should bring all Americans home from Iraq. I don't care if the Iraqiis kill each other off completely after we leave. And I don't really like the idea of the pro war posters on this thread going off to die either. The point is...as a pro war poster here, YOU should hate the idea of putting your life on hold, going to Iraq to risk it for Maliki and his Shiite gang, and with your slightly off angle viewpoint that you gained in the second you considered it, sort of feel what it must be like to back up your pro war convictions by actualy acting on those convictions. Now...in answer to your question...the people who are there now volunteered. BUT!!!! They do need more volunteers because they're understaffed, and what better place to get those volunteers than the proud Americans who think we should keep fighting till we win! Pro war/Republicans are always saying that WE need to make sacrifices like in WWII to get to eventual glorious victory. I gotta tell ya, those days were over by 1953. But that's just the way this old hippie see's it
If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.
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Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Let me ask this, as you are saying if you are pro war you should be compelled to serve, should not the reverse also hold true? The guys who are serving and are against this war should be on a plane home straight away.....
That would be something to see
Well, that makes me think...but before I go on....I actualy think that we should bring all Americans home from Iraq. I don't care if the Iraqiis kill each other off completely after we leave. And I don't really like the idea of the pro war posters on this thread going off to die either. The point is...as a pro war poster here, YOU should hate the idea of putting your life on hold, going to Iraq to risk it for Maliki and his Shiite gang, and with your slightly off angle viewpoint that you gained in the second you considered it, sort of feel what it must be like to back up your pro war convictions by actualy acting on those convictions. Now...in answer to your question...the people who are there now volunteered. BUT!!!! They do need more volunteers because they're understaffed, and what better place to get those volunteers than the proud Americans who think we should keep fighting till we win! Pro war/Republicans are always saying that WE need to make sacrifices like in WWII to get to eventual glorious victory. I gotta tell ya, those days were over by 1953. But that's just the way this old hippie see's it
If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.
Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but hasn't Congress been given a couple of chances to end the financing for the war already? A year or so ago, the Murtha bruhahah led the then-Repub. controlled Congress to put it on the floor for a vote...and what happenned? Nothing...the biggest Bush bashers and anti-war screamer Dems didn't have the guts of conviction to vote against it...right? Or was there a secret short-term strategy to keep the funds going for the war so they could then use the anti-war sentiment in America to propel them into Congress? Why would anyone who voted for them in 2006 elections believe they would end the war when they failed to act earlier in the year?...And now that the Dems have controlled congress for 8 months...again why no war vote to cut it off?...Another strategy to keep it going to propel a Dem into the White House? Will THAT finally be what it takes for them to act...step 1: secure control of all the govt....step 2: stop the war...step 3: ???
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but hasn't Congress been given a couple of chances to end the financing for the war already? A year or so ago, the Murtha bruhahah led the then-Repub. controlled Congress to put it on the floor for a vote...and what happenned? Nothing...the biggest Bush bashers and anti-war screamer Dems didn't have the guts of conviction to vote against it...right? Or was there a secret short-term strategy to keep the funds going for the war so they could then use the anti-war sentiment in America to propel them into Congress? Why would anyone who voted for them in 2006 elections believe they would end the war when they failed to act earlier in the year?...And now that the Dems have controlled congress for 8 months...again why no war vote to cut it off?...Another strategy to keep it going to propel a Dem into the White House? Will THAT finally be what it takes for them to act...step 1: secure control of all the govt....step 2: stop the war...step 3: ???
I'm not a democrat Jong, why would you ask me to defend what those morons in congress do? I'm anti war, and a registered republican! Some people are so programmed by Fox News, Rush, and Hannity to think all dems are this and all republicans are that that you just spew back out that crap that made you feel so good when it was on it's way in. It's kind of like this newly dicovered animal that vommits on you when it's threatened...RWEDicus spewidosicus.
If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.
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I wasn't specifically asking these questions of you Mal, sorry if it came out that way. I guess I'll hear from the anti-war Dems soon enough.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I wasn't specifically asking these questions of you Mal, sorry if it came out that way. I guess I'll hear from the anti-war Dems soon enough.
OOPs, now I feel bad about my edit
Same to you.
If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.
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Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Let me ask this, as you are saying if you are pro war you should be compelled to serve, should not the reverse also hold true? The guys who are serving and are against this war should be on a plane home straight away.....
That would be something to see
Well, that makes me think...but before I go on....I actualy think that we should bring all Americans home from Iraq. I don't care if the Iraqiis kill each other off completely after we leave. And I don't really like the idea of the pro war posters on this thread going off to die either. The point is...as a pro war poster here, YOU should hate the idea of putting your life on hold, going to Iraq to risk it for Maliki and his Shiite gang, and with your slightly off angle viewpoint that you gained in the second you considered it, sort of feel what it must be like to back up your pro war convictions by actualy acting on those convictions. Now...in answer to your question...the people who are there now volunteered. BUT!!!! They do need more volunteers because they're understaffed, and what better place to get those volunteers than the proud Americans who think we should keep fighting till we win! Pro war/Republicans are always saying that WE need to make sacrifices like in WWII to get to eventual glorious victory. I gotta tell ya, those days were over by 1953. But that's just the way this old hippie see's it
If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.
Actually I am against the war, not an american and I would also like to point out that many joined the military before this war in good faith that if called to fight it would be for good reason. Some poor bastard joins the national guard thinking that it would be cool to help out flood victims, and maybe serve honorably to defend their country... not really what is going on is it...
So the question is did they volunteer to help their country or go to Iraq... the two seem to be at odds
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Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni: Actually I am against the war, not an american and I would also like to point out that many joined the military before this war in good faith that if called to fight it would be for good reason. Some poor bastard joins the national guard thinking that it would be cool to help out flood victims, and maybe serve honorably to defend their country... not really what is going on is it...
So the question is did they volunteer to help their country or go to Iraq... the two seem to be at odds
I can't imagine more that a small pecentage actually wanting to go to a pit like Iraq and get shot at, but there must be a few. Then some are patriotic, some are career military, some are national guard and I feel sorry for them. Can you imagine the scale of "What the fuck did I get into" they must be going through?...those are the guys who should be replaced by 18-30 year old pro war American patriots!
If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.
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Quote:
Revolutionising a country involves education. Education could involve an eduction lesson at a very young age against islamic extremism. I can't see Iraq government implementing a project like this at all in schools.
Meh, might I suggest such a program HERE against christian extremism - I suspect I'd be lynched within a week...
Seriously tho, they ain't gonna do that cause the only folk who have *successfully* stood up to foreign meddlers and invaders have been those islamic extremists, and they trust them more than they trust us - we propped up the Shah, and then propped up Saddam against The Ayatolla when the Shah finally fell, and will very likely prop up a new unwanted, unwelcome puppet dictator under the thin fiction of democracy.
Who will then either fall and be replaced by some yahoo who REALLY hates us, or turn in our hand necessitating yet another round of violence, it's like we never learn nothin.
You're onto something there with education tho, the plight of women in that culture is pretty upsetting to me, but you cannot ram social change down someones throat on a bayonet, it just doesn't work.... but I would be all for supporting and encouraging their women to stand up for themselves and demand better treatment, if needs be from behind a row of levelled AK's, but THEY have to want it, and THEY have to DO it, or it has no meaning or longterm effect.
Problem with that, is the same problem as the rest, they do not trust us, we've given em utterly no reason to, and a million reasons not to - they DO trust the extremists, while what they'll get from that quarter is ugly, they will seek the comfort of the familiar over a treacherous foreign power whos every meddling has been a bona-fide disaster.
And so, they'll throw their lot in with the extremists, cause awful as it is, they know exactly what they're gonna get, and that's a far surer bet than gambling on our incompetent interventions.
I guess there's a great deal of comfort in the familar, even if it's awful...
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
I can't imagine more that a small pecentage actually wanting to go to a pit like Iraq and get shot at, but there must be a few. Then some are patriotic, some are career military, some are national guard and I feel sorry for them. Can you imagine the scale of "What the fuck did I get into" they must be going through?...those are the guys who should be replaced by 18-30 year old pro war American patriots!
That's akin to somebody joining the fire department but thinking that they personally will never have to run into a burning building. I'm sure there are some who joined the military for a college degree. Some who joined for disaster relief or other humanitarian causes. There are probably those who joined for something to do until they can decide on another career. But they should not have been naive enough to think they would never see combat. You cannot run the military by clearing every campaign with every soldier. Their job is to go where they are told and do what they are told, whether they agree or not.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
I can't imagine more that a small pecentage actually wanting to go to a pit like Iraq and get shot at, but there must be a few. Then some are patriotic, some are career military, some are national guard and I feel sorry for them. Can you imagine the scale of "What the fuck did I get into" they must be going through?...those are the guys who should be replaced by 18-30 year old pro war American patriots!
That's akin to somebody joining the fire department but thinking that they personally will never have to run into a burning building. I'm sure there are some who joined the military for a college degree. Some who joined for disaster relief or other humanitarian causes. There are probably those who joined for something to do until they can decide on another career. But they should not have been naive enough to think they would never see combat. You cannot run the military by clearing every campaign with every soldier. Their job is to go where they are told and do what they are told, whether they agree or not.
The problem with that is faith, you join thinking your the good guys fighting on the side of right, for good cause, with attainable goals and purpose and with the support of your country backing you up...
It is the political system, Reps and Dems both that have broken the faith with the military. Underequipped for a task that was not necessary, even detrimental to the country's interests...
Many Generals have resigned for these very reasons
but none with the balls of a von Stauffenberg unfortunately.....
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
That's akin to somebody joining the fire department but thinking that they personally will never have to run into a burning building. I'm sure there are some who joined the military for a college degree. Some who joined for disaster relief or other humanitarian causes. There are probably those who joined for something to do until they can decide on another career. But they should not have been naive enough to think they would never see combat. You cannot run the military by clearing every campaign with every soldier. Their job is to go where they are told and do what they are told, whether they agree or not.
Finally we agree on something, a little bit, I understand that battles are won by disciplined soldiers, non-coms, and officers.
And I understand that now matter how you enlisted...drunk, on a dare, to be patriotic, etc...you are in the army now. Done.
However...they need lot's more soldiers, the surge wasn't alll they need right, just all they could find. I find it hard to believe that we can't pull together 100,000 enthusiastic pro war young people to stand behind the cause they support. I mean there is 340.000,000 people in this country, 1/2 are women=170,000,000 men, 2/3 are not of the age=56,000,000 that could go to Iraq and fight. 1/2 are 4F=28,000,000 potential young people to fight. Let's be VERY genrous and say only 1 in 4 republicans in that age group are pro war=
7,000,000 Pro war young men that COULD go to Iraq and fight. AND YOUR contry needs them to man up. The surge was 20,000 men.
Just think for a second about the math, go ahead and adjust the figures to suit how you see it.
Here is the plain truth to me...Pro war Americans treat this war as though it's a source of entertainment. 99% of the pro war people in this country that could serve....WON'T! Because of a mixed bag of excuses and selfish reasons. They want this war to go on, They should go do it themselves, because they have no excuse, and it's the right thing to do! Apparently there is nothing that will cause them to enlist for thier own cause
If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.
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Quote:In other words you were using a fallacious argument to attempt to coherence people into your point of view, and now you’re pissed because no one played your game and those that tried to make your game work got their rhetorical asses handed to them. There’s a reason for that – your argument is bullshit. It’s just the anti-war version of the “love it or leave it” argument.
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Ya know what I was hoping for Nobody...I was hoping for a pro war person to say:
A. Ya know...I do feel strongly about the war, and maybe I should go, since I support it, and it seems like the right thing.
OR
B. Wow!...when I picture myself actualy enlisting and going over there to get shot at....fuck that! I ain't gettin killed, maybe I'll rethink my stance on the war, maybe become anti-war or I'll be a hypocrit.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
In other words you were using a fallacious argument to attempt to coherence people into your point of view, and now you’re pissed because no one played your game and those that tried to make your game work got their rhetorical asses handed to them. There’s a reason for that – your argument is bullshit. It’s just the anti-war version of the “love it or leave it” argument.
Easy does it there Finn...you'll blow a gasket
The only thing you did was delare my argument fallacious. So! I now and henforth delcare YOUR argument fallacious.....there!:tounge:
Seriously Finn, If you are 18-40, and you are pro war, if you don't enlist, you're a coward
If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.
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FREMDFIRMA- but I would be all for supporting and encouraging their women to stand up for themselves and demand better treatment, if needs be from behind a row of levelled AK's, but THEY have to want it, and THEY have to DO it, or it has no meaning or longterm effect.
I think that having women treated better in Iraq would also be an empowering thing for the country. It would probably go a long way to help the country be peaceful as women always increase peacefulness. Take for example how when the navy ships only allowed males onboard,how much swearing, ogaling and how rough it was on those vessels. Now females are serving on the navy ships, the male sailors don't fight, ogal and curse as much. Treating women equally has created a lot more peace on the ships in the navy. Having women and men working, praying and standing along side each other is something that could help Iraq become peaceful.
Quote:You called someone a coward. Dood you need to find some peace.
MALBADINLATINSeriously Finn, If you are 18-40, and you are pro war, if you don't enlist, you're a coward
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It's a pleasant thought, Maz, but I wouldn't trust it, no not one bit - I've known too many women!
Just ask Kipling about Afghani women.. and here's a hint, if they're running at you screaming "BADAL!" they're not gonna throw you a party, and save the last round for yourself.
Just so ya know
-F
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Quote:Really? That’s so cute.
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Seriously Finn, If you are 18-40, and you are pro war, if you don't enlist, you're a coward
I’m very confident that I’ve well paid for my “pro-war” opinions.
On the other hand, I’m anti-fire, or at least anti-‘my house burning down,’ and I’m not a fireman, nor have I ever been. I am deeply, deeply ashamed.
If you’re pro-abortion, you’re a coward if you don’t get aborted.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
If you’re pro-abortion, you’re a coward if you don’t get aborted.
lol. shouldn't laugh. vaguely funny.
I've got one.
Men like a good meal. But men are cowards if they don't cook dinner.
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Quote:I’m not guilty of that one. I can cook like Giada De Laurentis. I’m just not as fun to look at while I’m cooking.
Originally posted by mazaen:
Men like a good meal. But men are cowards if they don't make dinner.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I’m very confident that I’ve well paid for my “pro-war” opinions.
On the other hand, I’m anti-fire, or at least anti-‘my house burning down,’ and I’m not a fireman, nor have I ever been. I am deeply, deeply ashamed.
If you’re pro-abortion, you’re a coward if you don’t get aborted.
That's fine Finn, you have your opinon and the right to it. Enjoy
I like to think I'm capable of learning from people with differing opinons. And what I've concluded from this thread is that the WWII type of patriotism I was looking for doesn't exist. If it did, so many pro war people would NOT have come up so many flawed, as well as logical, arguments stating that you DO NOT have to fight in a war to support it. It's only my subjective opinion that you pro war people should enlist and go off to war. But in reality, I don't want that. RWED would be dull and unbalanced without people like Kane, Rap, Jong, and the rest. You however Finn, suck, I never liked you much, and I bet the feeling is mutual.
I'm exhausted, and look forward to disagreeing with you again
If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.
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