Spike at the end of Season 6

POSTED BY: Zeek
UPDATED: Thursday, August 9, 2007 15:52
VIEWED: 5158
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ZEEK

Monday, July 23, 2007 4:26 PM

Didn't want to be too spoilerish in the title of the thread cause people freak out, but if you haven't seen all of Buffy yet and you don't want to be spoiled then get out. And seriously have you been living under a rock? Get caught up already.

OK on to the real question. I've been rewatching all of Buffy slowly when I get some free time. I just got through season 6 and I just don't buy that Spike is trying to get his soul back. I mean the whole time he's calling Buffy a bitch and talking about the chip and how it's making him act wrong.

The writers all say it was misdirection and that's what Spike was really after, but I just don't buy it. Not with the dialog that Spike delivers. What would be so wrong with him being shocked by getting his soul instead of losing his chip anyway? Seems like it would have made a ton more sense to me. I mean magic and wishes go wrong all the time in the buffyverse. People ask for something expecting it to turn out one way but don't think about the double meanings of their words. Spike wants to be like he was but thinks that means back to being a regular vamp not back to having a soul.

Plus what kind of demon fights to destroy itself? That just doesn't make any sense. I mean when you become a vamp a demon takes over right? So, why would that demon want to be kicked out by the return of a soul? Doesn't make any kind of sense.

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, July 24, 2007 3:21 PM

This is my take, and mine alone:
Becoming a vamp means your soul goes on like, hold- shelved, as it were. What's left is a bit of personality (Which is mainly a corporeal thing), and a body run buy a part of the soul of all demons. Sort of an evil automatic pilot.

Spike, being frustrated by the chip limiting his bad and Buffy considering him a thing, goes to get his soul initially to prove to Buffy that he's him- soul or not. I believe it was his intention to get his soul back, and then confront Buffy with something like: "Like my soul, bitch? Am I still a 'thing'? I was born bad, luv."
See, the soul-less part doesn't even know how good he could be, but his desire for recognition from Buffy trancends the vampire in him- reaches back to William- and in essence, he betrays himself.
The monster that was Spike lost it's hold...due to love.

Chrisisall

CHARLIETHEBLOODY

Tuesday, July 24, 2007 4:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
This is my take, and mine alone:
Becoming a vamp means your soul goes on like, hold- shelved, as it were. What's left is a bit of personality (Which is mainly a corporeal thing), and a body run buy a part of the soul of all demons. Sort of an evil automatic pilot.

I think you're right with this. when angel got his soul back (each time) he remembered what had gone on while he wasn't in control, and conversely angelus talked about having to be there while angel ate rats and rescued puppies...

Quote:
I believe it was his intention to get his soul back, and then confront Buffy with something like: "Like my soul, bitch? Am I still a 'thing'? I was born bad, luv."

not so sure about this, I don't think he did believe he was born bad, he knew it was a front, he knew he was lying when he said that in fool for love, because then his flashback, his true recollection, showed him as being a wuss. if he thought he was the same he would have had a more romanticised memory of what he was like when he was human, I reckon...

Quote:

See, the soul-less part doesn't even know how good he could be, but his desire for recognition from Buffy trancends the vampire in him- reaches back to William- and in essence, he betrays himself.
The monster that was Spike lost it's hold...due to love.

yeah, can't argue with this part, but I think it was an unconscious betrayal, like zeek said, I don't think he realised that what he wanted was to be 'worthy' of her, I do believe he thought he wanted the chip gone so he could kill her.

but it's all very closely bound, chip/soul love/hate kill/shag, you can see why he'd be confused

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"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, July 24, 2007 5:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by charliethebloody:

I don't think he did believe he was born bad, he knew it was a front, he knew he was lying when he said that in fool for love, because then his flashback, his true recollection, showed him as being a wuss.

Here's where we get all over-analyze-y

In FFL, I think he meant it, and that we were not seeing a flahback of his, but a narrative flashback to juxtapose his 'demon take' on his past with the real thing.
And even if he does remember it correctly he might be considering that he (Spike) was born when Dru bit him, which would be 'born bad'.
But Spike is such a 'now' dude, it doesn't matter either way, truth is but one tool in his manipulation games.

Dizzy now Chrisisall

EMBERS

Tuesday, July 24, 2007 5:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
I just don't buy that Spike is trying to get his soul back. I mean the whole time he's calling Buffy a bitch and talking about the chip and how it's making him act wrong.

The writers all say it was misdirection and that's what Spike was really after, but I just don't buy it. Not with the dialog that Spike delivers.

you have to listen more closely to what Spike actually says and not how angry he sounds:
he doesn't need his chip out if what Buffy 'deserved' was getting punched, because he could already do that with the chip ...
No, he knew that what Buffy deserved was a good man, a man with a soul,
and getting the chip out wouldn't help ...
he went in search of his soul.

The writers were trying to mislead us so we would be surprised when Spike had his soul restored,
it was 'bait and switch'... where they set us up to expect one thing and then they give us something completely different.
Actually it is what Joss always loves to do,
but I'm surprised and thrilled every time.

CHARLIETHEBLOODY

Tuesday, July 24, 2007 6:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Here's where we get all over-analyze-y

nowt wrong with that specially when it comes to spike...

Quote:

In FFL, I think he meant it, and that we were not seeing a flahback of his, but a narrative flashback to juxtapose his 'demon take' on his past with the real thing.
And even if he does remember it correctly he might be considering that he (Spike) was born when Dru bit him, which would be 'born bad'.
But Spike is such a 'now' dude, it doesn't matter either way, truth is but one tool in his manipulation games.

Dizzy now Chrisisall

I'm not convinced, I haven't watched it for a while so I may be a bit vague and missing things, but think of the nikki flashback, the way he dips in and out of it play fighting buffy and then actually speaks to her in the flashback, that's coming from him not an outside narrator. don't know how that squares with the first one though, because I'm sure he wouldn't tell buffy what we actually see (him being a bit pathetic).

ok this is wanky speculation but I see it as a sort of build up of truth, in the first story he's not being honest, he's telling her a different version to what we see, and she's bored by it.

in the second one it's closer, the story about the chinese slayer is told with no frills and a fairly surfacey "lesson" that the slayer must reach for her weapon. that's kind of obvious and not very helpful. I reckon the way it's shown is how it happened and he's opening up to her more (the one good day bit, "you got off on it").

in the new york story though he gets to the emotional truth, it's shown very differently to the others, as I said before with the blurring of the past and present, there's a greater depth of honesty which allows him to literally speak out of the past to her.

what was I talking about? I can't remember...

anyway, as a coda, in lies my parents told me, even after dru had killed him he was still a complete mummy's boy... his being bad wasn't just down to being a vampire, it was a lot to do with having to deal with the shit he got from his mother. and when he finally did[/d] resolve it, it allowed him to strike a balance between his good and bad sides in a way that the soul and the chip and love and whatever else didn't.

how's that for over analytical? I apologise, I completely lost my point somewhere along the way there...

I think it was something along the lines of: "spike is cool"

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"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."

CLEMENTINE

Tuesday, July 24, 2007 6:06 PM

Declaration of bias: I love Spike. I'm not saying that is the only viewpoint I just want to make sure that you take that into consideration as you read my views. I know it can get you flamed in the wrong thread.

People get confused because Angel/Angelus is an obvious distinction but demon-Spike/souled-Spike is pretty much the same. Spike did miss being the big bad and he did want the chip out so that he could resume killing people, etc. He's a demon.

But Spike is a fool for love and love's bitch and it trumps all other desires. He is Buffy's willing slave. He was totally freaked by how close he came to "hurting the girl". He went off to get his soul back so he wouldn't do that any more and so he could be what Buffy deserved...a man.

Plus, watch the special feature of the AFI panel on the Season 6 discs. Hi-larious! Joss explains that the misdirection about Spike going to get the chip out was intentional and "a little thing of my own devising called a 'plot twist'."
_______________________________________

I love Spike.

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, July 24, 2007 6:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Clementine:
He was totally freaked by how close he came to "hurting the girl". He went off to get his soul back so he wouldn't do that any more and so he could be what Buffy deserved...a man.

Okay, now that I'm replaying the almost-rape in my head, I agree...it was the angry tone in the word 'deserves' that mis-directed me...

Joss, you devil, you!!

Chrisisall, another fool for love

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, July 24, 2007 6:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by charliethebloody:

in the new york story though he gets to the emotional truth, it's shown very differently to the others, as I said before with the blurring of the past and present, there's a greater depth of honesty which allows him to literally speak out of the past to her.

Great analysis of a brilliant (maybe the most brilliant) episode. Thanks, C.

Cisall

ZEEK

Tuesday, July 24, 2007 7:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
The writers were trying to mislead us so we would be surprised when Spike had his soul restored,
it was 'bait and switch'... where they set us up to expect one thing and then they give us something completely different.
Actually it is what Joss always loves to do,
but I'm surprised and thrilled every time.

See that's what I can't buy really. I always felt like the trick was played on Spike, but then I heard the commentaries and read interviews and it's supposedly that they were playing the trick on us. If so then I'd have to call it bad writing. Which is just something I don't really associate with Buffy.

If the trick is really on us and Spike knows what he's after, then he's way out of character the whole time. He's not showing any signs of feeling regret. He's not showing any feelings of love toward Buffy. He's calling her a bitch and complaining about the chip.

It's still a plot twist if Spike is expecting to get rid of his chip and gets a soul instead.

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