Nathan's Super Secret London Thingy

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Originally posted by Anonymous1:

Maybe a child of a dreg or a homeless person or a criminal will walk by the outside of the museum and think people make money doing ??? that and start their own art project.

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With what money? That is assuming that a dreg would pass by a museum. Which isn't exactly a good assumption given where museums are and where the dregs are.

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Originally posted by Anonymous1:

Criminal might go steal a camera though. Take films of crimes and be a yahoo-star. GRRRRH! ARRRGH!

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Or, more likely, they'll fence it. Then go grrrh! arrrgh! with the drugs bought afterward.

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I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

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Originally posted by Anonymous1:

Maybe a child of a dreg or a homeless person or a criminal will walk by the outside of the museum and think people make money doing ??? that and start their own art project.

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With what money? That is assuming that a dreg would pass by a museum. Which isn't exactly a good assumption given where museums are and where the dregs are.

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Nice pretty stack of aluminum cans and other garbage has been used for art projects. Lots of junk art out there. Heh.

The artists Wiki page says he also did this :

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Everyone should be entitled to at least one personal idiosyncrasy (placards, postcards and vinyl panels funded by the International Herald Tribune) 2005

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Also this:

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described by The Guardian newspaper as a public artist who places text in public spaces because he believes art’s place is at the centre of everyday life, not as a specialist activity at the margins of mainstream society.

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So maybe he is trying to reach the dregs. EEEK! THAT IS WHY HE HAS INCLUDED THE INTERNET IN HIS ART PROJECT AND INCLUDED NATHAN. TO REACH US DREGS OF THE INTERNET.

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"Strength Without Force"

I don't think I buy that we need 'a new kind' of hero for the 21st century. I don't buy that Strength must come without Force.

Martin Luther King, Jr. and Ghandi were, I believe, two 20th century heroes who embraced Strength without Force, essentially becoming catalysts for change without relying on violence.

On the other hand, the 20th century also provides us with examples of heroes who used violence to great success in opposing the forces of evil.

Violence is a tool. There have always been heroes who wield it, and there have always been heroes who choose not to. In every century.

I'm glad Nathan is getting exposure, but I dread the idea of any philosophy or art that is exclusive on the issue of violence.

Violence, or Force, is neither to be preferred nor shunned. It is a tool, and it should remain on the table for all heroes, everywhere, and in any time.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Wow, does this whole thing miss the point.

The fact of the matter is that if one looks at where the *vast* majority of violence is coming from (the dregs of society), the women are just as violent as the men.

Also, when one looks at where the least violence is coming from (the highly educated), the women are just as forceful (non-violently) as the men with just as little violence.

This is _not_ a insignificant.

This whole thing has extremely little to do with sex and what the difference is in how sexes are brought up. It has everything to do with the environment in which people are brought up in i.e. generally speaking, if one is brought up in a violent environment they become a violent person, but if one is brought up in a relatively peaceful environment (and gets educated), they become a non-violent person.

As a general rule: Education and upbringing in a non-violent environment breeds peaceful behaviour regardless of sex.


Quite frankly, I'm getting really really sick of this "a very specific part of society has a problem so lets attack this problem in this very specific part of society completely ignoring the fact that this problem isn't specific to this very specific part of society in any way shape or form especially considering the way that it is being presented" BS.

If we want people to be less violent, then we have to change society so that these violent pockets get smaller. The long term solution (b/c there is no short term one) is increasing the quality of education and getting parents to instill respect for education in there children.

If this is done, we'll be seeing (lasting) returns in a decade or two. But, to really see things happening, we'll have to wait till the new quality teachers start teaching and the next generation grows up.

I know that this doesn't appeal to the instant gratification people (read: most people), but there really isn't another way. After all, we're talking about changing society, not ordering KFC.

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I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Okay, unfortunately I don't have time to read this entire thread, but I had to stick my two cents in here. Society, in general, is not going to change for the better unless some tragedy takes place, probably to a celebrity or public figure, that makes people say, "Oh my god!" This is what happened when Lisa Steinberg was murdered by her adoptive parents years ago. Suddenly, the law went to the opposite extreme on disciplining your children. Prior to that, if you swore in front of your mother, she was well within her rights to slap you in the mouth. The gods know it happened in my house often enough! And it wasn't abuse unless your parent beat you to a bloody pulp. Now, if you spank your child, the whole world screams abuse. Our society lives on extremes. Part of the reason things do not improve is the fact that children receive less discipline because their parents are afraid of going to jail for child abuse. If you have a child who is obedient without spankings, more power to you. If you have a kid anything like I was, a spanking was the only thing that made any difference.

Parents, who are the backbone of society because they are a child's first teachers, are fearful of discipline, so the child receives very little of that and ends up bullying the parents. Add to that, everyone wants to be more "civilized": hand condoms to teens; give them choices, not orders, talk to them as rational human beings and let them make their own decisions. First of all, I haven't met a teen yet who has enough life experience to be able to make their own decisions about life. But society hands the reins over to children now, tells an adult that they are abusive because they hit their child, and then wonders why things go to hell in a handbasket.

When I was a kid, getting knocked upside the head when you did something wrong was a regular occurrence. Parents didn't need to

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That is assuming that a dreg would pass by a museum

maybe they'd see on a class trip? they do that even for the dregs' kids, you know.

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I think the project is beautiful, timely, and thought-provoking. I don't see it as attacking men, I see it as embracing their strength and their heroic natures, while stating very firmly that they need a different model of heroism.

Someone commented that the project might appeal to women that feel men have to get weaker for women to be equal. That rankles me a bit.

I'm a woman. I love strong men with all my heart. As a woman, I resent the implication that I somehow need a man to become weaker to become my equal. Equality is a matter of respect, not brute force.

Mal is stronger than me...physically and emotionally. He also has a deep respect for women, treating them as equals in combat and intellect while respecting their feelings and emotions. Would I want Mal to be a weaker man so he could be my "equal?" Not for a second. So don't get my motivations wrong when I say I love what this project stands for.

I love Mal and consider him my hero. He's a man living in a violent world, violence is part of his life, and I think no less of him for that; in fact I love him for many of his violent acts.

But Mal is fictional. Martin is addressing real people in the real, contemporary world with this project. Different thing entirely. While violence is *sometimes* a requirement in this world, we turn to it, worship it, and revel in it far too much.....especially men.

One of the strongest and bravest things a man can do in this society is to admit to compassion, kindness, and love. Why? Because there will be people like those on this thread lining up to attack him, underestimate him, and call him weak as a result.

I believe Martin's point is that kindness and nonviolence should stop being equated with weakness. I couldn't agree more.

Please understand that I am not a pacifist. I have been the target of violence and I have used violence against others in self-defense. But I think we need to stop equating violence with strength and heroism. We need to stop equating caring, compassion, and non-violence with weakness. I respect Nathan very much for being a part of this project.





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