Ron Paul - Help Wanted
POSTED BY: SevenPercent
UPDATED: Friday, August 31, 2007 20:14
VIEWED: 12322
PAGE 6 of 11
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Originally posted by antimason:
i disagree Fred- we dont want to replace science with religion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy
YOU might have different intentions then the ID movement but the motives of the ID movement are a matter of record.
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but macro evolution and abiogenesis have not been proven sufficiently for the claims being made by scientists.
Macroevolution has been clearly observed repeatedly, abiogenesis to the best of my knowledge has never been claimed as fact, merely the best current scientific explanation that we have.
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also, i dont believe teaching Creation violates the first amendment.. i believe it protects our right to teach it. government cannot endorse any particular belief, but it cannot prohibit the excercise either
The First Amendment prohibits the promotion of a religion by the government, teaching a religion in public schools is the government promoting a religion. The only way around it is to teach all religions which would take an enormous amount of time away from actually learning useful things.
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and up until the scopes trial, the bible was allowed in schools, and existed along side proven science JUST fine.
People tried repeatedly to confirm the stories of the Bible using science, they all failed. The evolution side isn't the people making a religious problem out of this, there are plenty of people who accept evolution and believe in the Bible, it's the religious people who say the two are incompatible.
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as AMericans, we will never preserve our constitutional republic if we continue to publicaly deny the theology which was an essential backdrop to our founding.
Explanation please? At what point is religion necessary to the continuance of the government?
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Originally posted by antimason:
what is a religious belief? its a worldview! what is evolution? its a worldview!
http://talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA610.html
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the founders were certainly of the opinion that you could not protect liberties without the belief in a transcendant Creator which endows every man with inalienable rights.
Which is a non sequitur, religious belief is not necessary to protect liberty and in fact the enforcement of religious belief is anti-liberty.
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i would argue that the atheistic evolution view, or the secular concept of the world, is detrimental to the security of our republics ideals, and is fair game to scrutinize as a worldview
Feel free to argue that, I'm listening.
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Me, I gots a real simple policy on this.
Keep yer "God" outta my life, and I keep my boot outta yer arse, that work for ya ?
Believe what you will, allow me to do likewise.
Simple, really.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Sergeantx- This is the kind of equivocation I'm talking about. Sure, they're both worldviews. They're also both words. But they're fundamentally different words. The element of faith celebrated in christianity and most other religions makes them distinctly different from science where the goal is to understand things, as much as possible, without faith.
thats the "goal", certainly... but people are by nature imperfect, and not all scientists can keep their own personal bias' seperate from their work. i believe thats true a lot of the time.. as you can tell with "global warming" or any other controversial subject(including abortion). IDs platform is that IT should be obvious that an intelligence crafted the universe, since we probably didnt coincidentally appear in this perfect place(in the solar system), with relatively utopic conditions, and an abundance of emotions intelligences and experiences. could i be wrong? certainly.. i bet the universe has an abundance of life.. but i cant prove that. thats not science.. thats speculation.
what im hearing from people is "you can believe in God, but dont you think, or even attempt to prove it, cause God doesnt exist, and its impossible"! believe me, thats the message. well maybe the evidence has been there all along, and we just didnt know, or refused to see what was there in front of us. in light of some pretty interesting, but especially credible historical evidence, the ID view seems more likely then what i consider to be beyond chance or odds or mathematical randomness that anything even exists AT ALL
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The faith of religious belief is something above and beyond what can be proven with science.
says you though. NOBODY knows that for sure. look i know youre a smart guy, 'cause i agree with you a majority of the time ;). but that takes complete material and immaterial understanding of the universe to know that
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Why would you want to cheapen it by saying it's no different than faith in a theory.
i dont, by any means.. i feel it is cheapened when it pawns off unproven theories as incontrovertible fact. can we be honost about that, that even findings change and theories are disproven over time? i think many people are not as open as they should be about this, considering the positions they take
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Originally posted by fredgiblet:
The First Amendment prohibits the promotion of a religion by the government, teaching a religion in public schools is the government promoting a religion.
until as recently as the 1960s, we still had bible study and prayer in schools. it wasnt curriculum, it was being practiced freely, as the first amendment grants. but a series of secular activists in the supreme court have since taken that right away. its just when the government is prohibiting 'religion', then its ok, 'cause thats where religion belongs, 'behind close doors where no one can see or hear you'. regarding the first amendment, we should accept that the pilgrims were escaping religious persecution from the catholic church, and that many of the ideas that motivated colonial society were attributed to protestant reformationist theology. thats why we have a bill of rights and constitution, because we actually had moral and ethical standards, and absolutes, that we believed were divinely granted to each person, as a sovereign being. the abortion debate is a perfect example: the sanctity of human life means nothing if we cannot establish absolutes. if we are no more then animals, then the law of the jungle prevails, and we are entitled to nothing.
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The only way around it is to teach all religions which would take an enormous amount of time away from actually learning useful things.
except that America was a christian nation from its founding, that was the backdrop of colonial AMerica that inspired the constitution, bill of rights, and declaration of independance. having ignored this, we've lost all national identity, and have likewise completely neglected our founding principles. we now want to go back and remove that influence, and attempt to purge any remaining influence from public life.. and then wonder where are our collective morality went?
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People tried repeatedly to confirm the stories of the Bible using science, they all failed.
archeological evidence constantly confirms the bibles accuracy. as far as our origins, you cant prove that we came from apes, any more then i can that God created us UNIQUELY among his creatures(but actually, i think the circumstantial evidence is in my favor)
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The evolution side isn't the people making a religious problem out of this, there are plenty of people who accept evolution and believe in the Bible, it's the religious people who say the two are incompatible.
IDers and Creationist agree with evolution, we disagree on the extent to which it operates. we DONT believe that it is the sole force in the universe, that in essence non living matter spun life, and created itself.
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Explanation please? At what point is religion necessary to the continuance of the government?
im not advocating a "religion", as much as a worldview that includes transcendant laws established by a higher power. as far as our constitutional republic, the reason for this is clear as day. take a look at the democratic party: they have no platform, because they do not have a uniform set of principles. as an atheist, what DO you believe? what IS your moral code? its completely relative to your own personal opinion! a republic cannot exist without established standards, but more specifically rights granted to the individual by his Creator. if we're just a couple steps above a primate, good luck convincing other men to grant you what God believes your entitled to. take a look at secular societies through history, you dont own land, you dont own your money, you dont own shit! a perfect example is the 2nd amendment, which doesnt exist in other countries because they dont believe you have the right to defend yourself! if its not pretty clear already, ill be sure to elaborate again sometime
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the founders were certainly of the opinion that you could not protect liberties without the belief in a transcendant Creator which endows every man with inalienable rights.
I call whiffs of BS on that one.
Our founding fathers were mostly diests and athetists, with a passionate skepticism if not outright derision for religion.
"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses."
"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that has ever existed?"
John Adams
“Denominated a Deist, the reality of which I have never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian.”
Ethan Allen
". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a through Deist."
Ben Franklin
"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."
James Madison
“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.”
“Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, more than on our opinions in physics and geometry....The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”
Thomas Jefferson
That one being may favored quote there, and I will deliberately refrain from quoting Thomas Paine because he was rather less tolerant of it.
You'll also note that their concept was more 'natures god' or 'whatever you believe created you' than a any specific deity.
The basic premise of the Founders was more that you could not protect liberties without SEPERATING religion from the process utterly, and yet they still found a way to respect and allow it in any form without promoting or forbidding it - an utterly neutral expression that to this very DAY, in the form of this thread even, has proven to be a wise and solid bulwark against the attempts to advance a theological agenda on th
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i love it... i can find just as many quotes from christians, like George Washington or John Adams or James Madison. but we can pretend like christianity wasnt the predominant belief in the region, thatll really advance this discussion. besides, most of the diests were prescribed Freemasons, which IS a religion, and does recognize a higher power. most of their objections were to the Catholic church, who as everyone knows, especially John Wycliff and Martin Luther, that it was the 'beast' on earth
*"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen."
John Adams
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i wonder why Ron Pauls a christian?(or any of the other pro-constitutional republicans for that matter?) someone should ask him that
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ok... but Deism is still a belief in a God! its still not atheism! that is highly significant. just read about why Karl Marx became an atheist, Lenin said "Atheism is a natural and inseparable portion of Marxism, of the theory and practice of Scientific Socialism." do you know why that is??
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Learn to read.
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they respected religion, a good bit of em, but they damned sure didn't want it anywhere NEAR their Government, and folks like you are why.
Also Diesm includes, quite specifically.. "I don't know" as effective Diesm because it involves the personal search for, and resolution of, those questions and answers without regard to an established religion.
Frankly, your coming off as exactly the kind of psycho that I take most christans for once the phony mask of tolerance and understanding slips, showing the iron-fisted dogma underneath, and thus I do not think this conversation and topic are productive in any way and will end it here.
-F
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