Wash & Book Resurrected: How?
POSTED BY: Fastmover
UPDATED: Saturday, May 26, 2007 11:25
VIEWED: 12854
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Fastmover, I really hate that I buy your reasoning about Jayne ( I agree with the Inara comments, too). He and Kaylee are my favorites (the most brutish and the sweetest). I actually agree that Jayne would have made a more meaningful sacrifice than Wash.
Having said that, if I were Whedon I would have sacrificed River. I want the show to go on but how can it be about the average human stumbling along trying to do the best they can when Supergirl is onboard. Summer Glau is my new favorite actress. I think she did outstanding on making her character live with very little given her to say. Yet, I can't see the show I love existing with her mentally stable and physically almost unstoppable.
The facts that River is alive and Wash is dead are what most cause me to believe there will be no more Firefly. (Aaah, knock on wood---)
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OK, look; I'm for the "nobody after Book dies" approach.
I understand the
Quote:
Now if Jayne died, it would have some very important meanings
but my whole point is that at no point is the show made better by the loss of a main character as compared to what those characters bring to the table dramatically. If we "had" to kill off a fictional character I would agree with this reasoning but we don't "have to" kill off anybody.
But please keep in mind that I acknowledge that my bias runs to the fact that I like my entertainment to be FUN and I expect life to be tempered by MISERY, so when entertainment is tempered by MISERY it becomes a reflection of life and ceases to be entertainment. Good entertainment resonates of real life without getting sucked into dwelling on real life drawbacks.
Quote:
I want the show to go on but how can it be about the average human stumbling along trying to do the best they can when Supergirl is onboard.
I found this observation to be very insightful but I don't feel the potential problem is insurmountable.
Quote:
...I can't see the show I love existing with (River) mentally stable and physically almost unstoppable.
I don't think at the end of Serenity that River is truly "cured". Functioning with more clarity, perhaps, but still working with surgically created psychosis and abilities. I see dramatic potential in the crew relying TOO much on River's insight and her mis-interpretation getting them into trouble. I also see the government pardoning her and Simon in the wake of the Miranda revelation. Their attempts to re-enter society would surely be rocky. Simon is a doctor accused of multiple criminal offenses and River is akin to a psychologically damaged Special Forces soldier returning from too many tours of Vietnam. Especially for River, trying to find her place in the "real" world would be a great way to explore the obstacles that face unusual people (Geeks?) trying to fit in with regular folk (Mundanes?).
As far as her physical abilities, I see her more in line with David Carradine's character in the series "Kung Fu" than as Supergirl. She has an edge, but she isn't unbeatable.
In the bar she was facing a group of alcohol drinking bar patrons, rough, maybe; but not an organized or trained group of people.
And the Reavers? They shot/maybe-killed Simon! Think back to "Safe" where River says to Simon, "You gave up everything you had to find me, and you found me broken." When River has her moment of clarity and tells Simon he can't go because he takes care of her-he's always taken care of her...MY TURN; well shoot-hell, I can't believe the Reavers lasted as long as they did!
So, against trained or criminally inclined sober adversaries and without the "over-the-top-you-killed-Simon" motivation I think River would be more like a second Jayne rather than boringly unbeatable.
Quote:
The facts that River is alive and Wash is dead are what most cause me to believe there will be no more Firefly. (Aaah, knock on wood---)
In my mind, Wash lives. I feel so strongly about his place in the Firefly dynamic that if no more Firefly can come after Serenity without dead Wash, I'd rather it end at Serenity and allow me to finish it out in my own mind in a way that makes me happy. Firefly speaks to me very deeply at a very tough (just "still flyin'")point in my life. I hate to see that connection tossed in the dustbin in the name of a cheap, needless dramatic trick to create fictional peril.
Mike
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Quote:All right then.
Originally posted by pennausamike:
[BIt was never my intention to put words in your mouth, only to state my own views.
Any fan who doesn't know that Serenity is the tenth character isn't paying attention.
And ya knooooowwwww...
They brought Serenity back from the dead, too.
Just sayin'...
I am crotchety veteran who lived through the throes of cancellation, so I can get a little tetchy. I got my Browncoat status the hard way. Doesn't make me special or anything, I'm just offering it up as a point of perspective.
Enuff said.
Serenity is less fragile than her human crew. She knows that, same as us. Her parts can be more readily replaced, and no one has to really worry about her blood type... well no one HAS to, but Kaylee would, all the same.
Serenity and Wash worked in concert to save the rest of them. How do you think she feels about all this?
I said I believe in the soul, remember?
See, here's the thing with an ensemble cast - it doesn't rely on any one person. It relies on the whole. Resting too much responsibility on one character can invalidate the contribution of the others. I prefer to find the balance.
I pity any pilot who will be brought in to sit in that chair. He or she will suffer by comparison on so many levels that it would make any regular person crack. And yet, I'm also fiercely curious to find out if there would be anyone who could try and make it. THAT is good storytelling.
I love Wash and Book, same as any tried and true Browncoat. It's hard to let them go, but that's how the real 'verse turns, and that's another huge part of the story Joss is trying to tell.
Doing the impossible makes us mighty
Minnesota Browncoats
http://www.mnfirefly.com/portal/html/index.php
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The River issue kind of gets me, too. The main premise of this show that sets it apart from other sc-fi films was that these were just regular people, maybe even lower than average struggling to get by. This is what got me into the show, and I enjoyed the adventures more than anything else. This conflict seems to be resolved now that River has emerged as a real power, and I must say that some of her actions towards the end of the BDM really did seem too much like 'deus ex machina' if you get me. She's an easy way out of a tight spot, sort of like the undead atomic scrubbing bubble army in Return of the King in the way she takes out all the Reavers.
Now the crew doesn't really have to struggle anymore because like you say, Supergirl can take care of it. And again about Inara, at times she makes things a little too sappy with Mal, especially in Heart of Gold. I really preferred Kaylee's sweetness and happy-go-lucky personality. It's weird, but in real life I'd never see Inara onboard Serenity, and it seems a bit like she got put there from another movie.
[IMG]
[/IMG]
I am evil, I am sly, and if you get eaten no one will cry.
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Quote:
Originally posted by pennausamike:
OK, look; I'm for the "nobody after Book dies" approach.
I understand theQuote:
Now if Jayne died, it would have some very important meanings
but my whole point is that at no point is the show made better by the loss of a main character as compared to what those characters bring to the table dramatically. If we "had" to kill off a fictional character I would agree with this reasoning but we don't "have to" kill off anybody.
But please keep in mind that I acknowledge that my bias runs to the fact that I like my entertainment to be FUN and I expect life to be tempered by MISERY, so when entertainment is tempered by MISERY it becomes a reflection of life and ceases to be entertainment. Good entertainment resonates of real life without getting sucked into dwelling on real life drawbacks.Quote:
I want the show to go on but how can it be about the average human stumbling along trying to do the best they can when Supergirl is onboard.
I found this observation to be very insightful but I don't feel the potential problem is insurmountable.Quote:
...I can't see the show I love existing with (River) mentally stable and physically almost unstoppable.
I don't think at the end of Serenity that River is truly "cured". Functioning with more clarity, perhaps, but still working with surgically created psychosis and abilities. I see dramatic potential in the crew relying TOO much on River's insight and her mis-interpretation getting them into trouble. I also see the government pardoning her and Simon in the wake of the Miranda revelation. Their attempts to re-enter society would surely be rocky. Simon is a doctor accused of multiple criminal offenses and River is akin to a psychologically damaged Special Forces soldier returning from too many tours of Vietnam. Especially for River, trying to find her place in the "real" world would be a great way to explore the obstacles that face unusual people (Geeks?) trying to fit in with regular folk (Mundanes?).
As far as her physical abilities, I see her more in line with David Carradine's character in the series "Kung Fu" than as Supergirl. She has an edge, but she isn't unbeatable.
In the bar she was facing a group of alcohol drinking bar patrons, rough, maybe; but not an organized or trained group of people.
And the Reavers? They shot/maybe-killed Simon! Think back to "Safe" where River says to Simon, "You gave up everything you had to find me, and you found me broken." When River has her moment of clarity and tells Simon he can't go because he takes care of her-he's always taken care of her...MY TURN; well shoot-hell, I can't believe the Reavers lasted as long as they did!
So, against trained or criminally inclined sober adversaries and without the "over-the-top-you-killed-Simon" motivation I think River would be more like a second Jayne rather than boringly unbeatable.Quote:
The facts that River is alive and Wash is dead are what most cause me to believe there will be no more Firefly. (Aaah, knock on wood---)
In my mind, Wash lives. I feel so strongly about his place in the Firefly dynamic that if no more Firefly can come after Serenity without dead Wash, I'd rather it end at Serenity and allow me to finish it out in my own mind in a way that makes me happy. Firefly speaks to me very deeply at a very tough (just "still flyin'")point in my life. I hate to see that connection tossed in the dustbin in the name of a cheap, needless dramatic trick to create fictional peril.
Mike
I see your point, but unfortunately I believe Joss didn't want anyone killed, but the studio made him do it to create the desired effect for them. I agree no one's death helps the show, but in the words of the Operative, Jayne's death would have been a, "Very good death. There's no shame in this, for a man who has done fine works." :)
[IMG]
[/IMG]I am evil, I am sly, and if you ge
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That romantic sexual tension between Inara and Mal is wonderfully fun but I never could figure out what she was doing on Serenity. Hopefully, one day we will get her back story and that will explain her reasoning for being there.
I understood Whedon's choice in the BDM of paring down the characters by moving Inara and Book off ship. But, I still don't understand the choice of Wash dying. I think Book dying allowed fans of Firefly to believe anyone could die but people just new to the movie wouldn't perceive of Wash as a main character and thus his death failed to increase the perceived likelihood of anyone else dying.
Dangit, I want Firefly back but, even if it were to come back, how would Whedon deal with the drastic changes to his show?
(and Fastmover? While I buy Jayne's death being more impressive than Wash's in BDM, I am so glad it didn't happen. I ran into a spoiler before I saw the movie and cried my eyes out into a puddle on my desk. Then I cried during the movie. If it had been Jayne.... Oh dear, I'd have been incapacitated.)
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Joss has stated many times about killing characters to "make the stakes real".
It is his choice to kill characters and I just don't happen to agree with it.
But he's Joss Whedon and I'm just a fan, so my opinion doesn't count.
Mike
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Quote:
Originally posted by redhead:
Dangit, I want Firefly back but, even if it were to come back, how would Whedon deal with the drastic changes to his show?
Please see all my proposed storylines and new avenues of dramatic exploration :-)
Mike
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I love Jayne too, he's my favorite character after Mal. He's actually more funny than Wash, but in a much drier and more subtle way that I find interesting. I also really liked Book, but more for his mysterious past than what we see in the show. I get what you mean about Inara. I hate saying it, but sometimes I think they had a cool action show, but wait, no hot chick! Quick, find some flamin' hot beauty and put her in there. Like you say, though, she does have an interesting past like Book if only we ever found out. We already know that the needle she uncovered for fear of the Reavers in the pilot was a disease or poison for anyone who raped her.
[IMG][/IMG]
I am evil, I am sly, and if you get eaten no one will cry.
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They may not be brought back from the dead, but River may see visions of them and get insight from past experiences she had with them. I'm not saying she is speaking to the dead. Just bringing back memories in flashbacks that are meant to help her through some difficult passage.
I think if Joss does get a chance to make another movie, River will be the focus. She will finally find piece with herself and this will require the aid of the entire crew. That includes Wash and Book.
River may have an Alice Through the Lookin Glass kind of fable that will force her to meet each character in a different environment. She would get a sudden image of Book and start following him from pillar to post. Meeting up with all the others as she trys to find her way with their help.
Traveler
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