General Discussions

For all those who believe in Christianity or Some form of it...

POSTED BY: RiveR6213
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 10:10
VIEWED: 25834
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LEADB

Thursday, May 17, 2007 4:36 AM

Quote:
I believe that God knows, or knew already who was going to be in, or out. Who was going to go to heaven or hell trillions of years before anyone of us was born. I figure in the long run...what's the point?

To hell I go!

you posit there is no free will then?

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, May 17, 2007 4:43 AM

Or that we can all do whatever the hell we want, because the lottery was over long before we had a chance to tilt it.

Trillions of years might be a stretch though, since time isn’t quite that old.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

RIVER6213

Thursday, May 17, 2007 4:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:
Quote:
I believe that God knows, or knew already who was going to be in, or out. Who was going to go to heaven or hell trillions of years before anyone of us was born. I figure in the long run...what's the point?

To hell I go!
you posit there is no free will then?

Well, people go on and on about how we have choices and it is up to our free will and such, but I believe that when it gets right down to it you can do what God wants you to do and accept Jesus into your heart and life, and you can turn your back on sin and such and STILL end up in hell.

You can't choose what place, or family you are born into, and you can't choose if you are going to heaven or hell. That choice was already made before you were born. I mean you can try to control where you are going to go, but God already knows where you will end up. In my case it's hell and there is nothing I can do about it. I'm not fighting the idea of it anymore.; I'm going to go were my natural nature takes me and that place is hell. Thinking about it now it seems right.

I mean think about it...you gotta know your own nature. Example:

River6213 is given 10 nuclear weapons with a delivery system and the key codes to fire those missiles along with a guidance computer. What do you think that River6213 is going to do? I'd fire those missiles off in a heart beat, that's what I would do! I would ensure that the place that those missiles targeted would cause the most damage and destruction. This is my nature in full bloom if allowed to fully express itself, which is why I know that I am hell-bound.

It's all about what you have in your heart that counts in the end.

Free-ranged, hell-bound River

ZOID

Thursday, May 17, 2007 5:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by xitwound117:
To those who subscribe to religiousity, mainly of the Jesus kind: do y'all really believe the "if you don't accept Jesus you burn" business? I can't tell if that's actually part of the faith, or some extremist part. I've been to church more than I'd like, but I can't seem to nail down an answer.

May we never let Firefly die.

I'd like to take a stab at this one, too.

Jesus said that the Kingdom of Heaven is within each of us, and that -- because of the essential change in the nature of Man that His coming heralded -- that no person needed an interceding agent (priest, preacher or rabbi) to talk to their God, ever again. Jesus Christ therefore represents a new covenant between God (Whom it should be pointed out identifies Himself only as "I am") and all of Humanity.

With me so far? Good. Here's where it gets a little twisty...

Jesus was a human man. He was born of a woman. He laughed, he cried; he felt God's power flow through Him, and He experienced His time in the wilderness. His earthly body was wracked with pain, and then perished...

In other words, He was exactly like you and me. But He wasn't like other people of His time. He had the Kingdom of God within Him. Within Him was the only temple of worship necessary to commune with God. When He died -- like any other human -- he opened a doorway to God that had not previously existed.

...A little bendy for the old noggin', yeah? I hope you're still tracking, though, cuz there's one more twist...

Remember that Jesus is not only God's son, He is God, Himself. By communing with the Divine Human within all of us (Jesus), we are also talking directly to God the Creator, as well as God the Omnipresent Companion (Holy Spirit, or Holy Ghost).

***So to answer your question -- and I hope I'm not making too broad a conceptual leap for y'all to follow, I'm just trying to be brief -- a pre-Cook Hawaiian native, for example, would not be necessarily consigned to eternal damnation.*** It is by the search for God -- by whatever name, to include the broad-as-you-can-possibly-get, "I am" -- and by following His "still, small voice" within each of us, that one gains the Kingdom of God.

Many hellfire types of whatever Man-made religion will steadfastly hold that one cannot get anywhere but Hell unless you believe on Christ. I contend that, like His own disciples, they have missed Jesus' point entirely. What a surprise. Yes, He said that no one could get to the Father's kingdom unless they believe in Him. But Jesus had previously said that the Kingdom is already within us all.

When He perished on the cross, the gap between Man and God was forever bridged. To find Jesus/God, one need only look inside oneself. To the extent that anyone will look inside their self to find God/"I am", they will find Him, by whatever name or even none at all. To the extent that they then obey God's will for them, they grow in spiritual unity with God. (NB: Please see the P.S., below.) Take it from one who knows: Oneness with God is a heavenly reward on Earth. I look forward to the day when God takes me home, free at last of the trials of Spirit, and of the errors ('sin') inherent in biology...

To River6213:
I agree with your assessment of your soul's probable destination, based on your accounts. And you're right: It's definitely the reptilian and early mammalian reflexes that are ruling and dooming you. I would pray for you, but there is only one prayer that can save you, and that is yours. I think the Holy Spirit is moving on you, in a powerful way. The proof is that you so clearly recognize the nature of your erroneous ('evil') behavior. God is calling you. The only question that remains is what will you do about it? You have erected a formidable wall and -- like you -- I don't know if you have the strength to tear it down. I know a Man who can help, if you ask Him to. But...

So, I grieve for you. Not for you as a flailing biological entity, trapped b

RIVER6213

Thursday, May 17, 2007 6:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Quote:
Originally posted by xitwound117:
To those who subscribe to religiousity, mainly of the Jesus kind: do y'all really believe the "if you don't accept Jesus you burn" business? I can't tell if that's actually part of the faith, or some extremist part. I've been to church more than I'd like, but I can't seem to nail down an answer.

May we never let Firefly die.

I'd like to take a stab at this one, too.

Jesus said that the Kingdom of Heaven is within each of us, and that -- because of the essential change in the nature of Man that His coming heralded -- that no person needed an interceding agent (priest, preacher or rabbi) to talk to their God, ever again. Jesus Christ therefore represents a new covenant between God (Whom it should be pointed out identifies Himself only as "I am") and all of Humanity.

With me so far? Good. Here's where it gets a little twisty...

Jesus was a human man. He was born of a woman. He laughed, he cried; he felt God's power flow through Him, and He experienced His time in the wilderness. His earthly body was wracked with pain, and then perished...

In other words, He was exactly like you and me. But He wasn't like other people of His time. He had the Kingdom of God within Him. Within Him was the only temple of worship necessary to commune with God. When He died -- like any other human -- he opened a doorway to God that had not previously existed.

...A little bendy for the old noggin', yeah? I hope you're still tracking, though, cuz there's one more twist...

Remember that Jesus is not only God's son, He is God, Himself. By communing with the Divine Human within all of us (Jesus), we are also talking directly to God the Creator, as well as God the Omnipresent Companion (Holy Spirit, or Holy Ghost).

***So to answer your question -- and I hope I'm not making too broad a conceptual leap for y'all to follow, I'm just trying to be brief -- a pre-Cook Hawaiian native, for example, would not be necessarily consigned to eternal damnation.*** It is by the search for God -- by whatever name, to include the broad-as-you-can-possibly-get, "I am" -- and by following His "still, small voice" within each of us, that one gains the Kingdom of God.

Many hellfire types of whatever Man-made religion will steadfastly hold that one cannot get anywhere but Hell unless you believe on Christ. I contend that, like His own disciples, they have missed Jesus' point entirely. What a surprise. Yes, He said that no one could get to the Father's kingdom unless they believe in Him. But Jesus had previously said that the Kingdom is already within us all.

When He perished on the cross, the gap between Man and God was forever bridged. To find Jesus/God, one need only look inside oneself. To the extent that anyone will look inside their self to find God/"I am", they will find Him, by whatever name or even none at all. To the extent that they then obey God's will for them, they grow in spiritual unity with God. (NB: Please see the P.S., below.) Take it from one who knows: Oneness with God is a heavenly reward on Earth. I look forward to the day when God takes me home, free at last of the trials of Spirit, and of the errors ('sin') inherent in biology...

To River6213:
I agree with your assessment of your soul's probable destination, based on your accounts. And you're right: It's definitely the reptilian and early mammalian reflexes that are ruling and dooming you. I would pray for you, but there is only one prayer that can save you, and that is yours. I think the Holy Spirit is moving on you, in a powerful way. The proof is that you so clearly recognize the nature of your erroneous ('evil') behavior. God is calling you. The only question that remains is what will you do about it? You have erected a formidable wall and -- like you -- I don't know if you have the strength to tear it down. I know a Man who can help, if you ask Him to. But...

So, I grieve for you. Not for you as a

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ZOID

Thursday, May 17, 2007 7:08 AM

RiveR6213 replied:

Quote:
Awwww...
Nice words and all Zoid, but don't preach at us (or at me at least) okay? Just tell us where you think you are going to go...heaven or hell???? Based on all that gospel stuff you just threw at us I put $100 down on you think you're going to heaven. Well who knows, maybe you are one of God's chosen.

-River

I've made 2 very lengthy responses in this thread, in both of which I stated my certainty that there is a 'Heaven', and that I would go there when my allotted time on Earth is done. So, not much of a $100 gamble, RiveR6213, unless you also like to bet on tape delays of sporting events.

Maybe you should try reading some of the "nice words and all", before you accuse me of preaching at you. All I did was agree that you were probably going to Hell. I also agreed with you that you probably lacked the means to stop yourself from going there. But you seem perfectly content to go, so where's the aggro, babe? I mean, if you're going to Hell, it's a pretty safe assumption that Aggravation is gonna be a spoonful of sorbet between courses on the daily menu...

To be fair, I did say that I strongly feel that God is practically screaming at you to listen to reason. So, maybe that was a tad preachy; but, that really shouldn't get your knickers in such a twist. You're damn-sure where you're going, so why should my lame attempt to help you find some happiness offend you?

Just to set us straight, though, and all teasing aside: I apologize for reaching out to you in an inappropriate way. It was purely an instinctive reaction.

Non-Calvinistically,

zoid

P.S.
I'll give you the Chicago Bears and 11 points in SB XLI, quadruple-or-nothing on your original $100 bet. What'd'ya say?
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

RIVER6213

Thursday, May 17, 2007 7:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:

RiveR6213 replied:
Quote:
Awwww...
Nice words and all Zoid, but don't preach at us (or at me at least) okay? Just tell us where you think you are going to go...heaven or hell???? Based on all that gospel stuff you just threw at us I put $100 down on you think you're going to heaven. Well who knows, maybe you are one of God's chosen.

-River

I've made 2 very lengthy responses in this thread, in both of which I stated my certainty that there is a 'Heaven', and that I would go there when my allotted time on Earth is done. So, not much of a $100 gamble, RiveR6213, unless you also like to bet on tape delays of sporting events.

Maybe you should try reading some of the "nice words and all", before you accuse me of preaching at you. All I did was agree that you were probably going to Hell. I also agreed with you that you probably lacked the means to stop yourself from going there. But you seem perfectly content to go, so where's the aggro, babe? I mean, if you're going to Hell, it's a pretty safe assumption that Aggravation is gonna be a spoonful of sorbet between courses on the daily menu...

To be fair, I did say that I strongly feel that God is practically screaming at you to listen to reason. So, maybe that was a tad preachy; but, that really shouldn't get your knickers in such a twist. You're damn-sure where you're going, so why should my lame attempt to help you find some happiness offend you?

Just to set us straight, though, and all teasing aside: I apologize for reaching out to you in an inappropriate way. It was purely an instinctive reaction.

Non-Calvinistically,

zoid

P.S.
I'll give you the Chicago Bears and 11 points in SB XLI, quadruple-or-nothing on your original $100 bet. What'd'ya say?
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

Wow! That was a mouthful. What are "Knickers" any way? Anyhow. Your posts in this thread have been very good and quite informative. You have presented a side that is inspiring and quite deep, and well thought out. You have demonstrated that you are solid in your belief, and world view, and you are clear that heaven is where you are headed without a doubt. There is no sarcasm on my part regarding any of this. I suspect that you take my wording as being cavalier on the subject of hell, and my own character and nature that will carry me there, but if you read closer, you will find a not too happy person, who knows her final outcome; who knows her character, and what's in her heart. I'm just being brave and courageous about it all; pure smoke that hides the inevitability of what must come to pass. It is all that it is supposed to be.

One of the many problems with Christianity is that everything is boiled down to a simple black and white choice, and presented that way to look as though it is easy, or simple. This is earth that we live; It is not a black and white scenario.

So spare me your sarcasm. This thread is about one believing if they are going to Heaven or Hell, and I'm not really into getting into a verbal, swirling, word, dogfight over it. Simply put from where I stand. I am going to hell, but I'm not happy about it, but I do accept it. Also, as crazy as this may sound. I am not to happy about going to heaven either. I wish history and the God's had left me alone in the land of non-existence in the first place.

The Universe appears to be a very bothersome place...

-River

CAUSAL

Thursday, May 17, 2007 12:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
*BTW, Causal, I didn't know you were such a deep thinker*

I'm a philosophy major. Deep thinking is what I'm doing most of the time! The trouble is, my objections are often read as attacks, and that can get me in trouble. So I work to make nice-nice so I can still make my objections without making people mad.

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CAUSAL

Thursday, May 17, 2007 12:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:
The finish here is a bit weak. So... you are using the old gem "better to believe in the judgemental God of the Christians because you go to hell if you don't; and if there is no God it doesn't matter?" Hmmm, ok. What if the "reality" of god is offended by such sentimentalities, and finds instead the mindset of the typical Hindu much more appealing. The Hindu goes to 'heaven' (despite not necessarily believing in one, as you point out, the Hindu's belief or lack of it will not cause the heaven to vanish) while the poor Christian suffers the fate of whatever 'hell' happens to be in the "reality" as you are fond of calling it.
(edit:) -or- are you just saying I'll be surprised? In which case I'm willing to posit I'll be "surprised" almost no matter what; key here is "expect the unexpected."

Actually, I was saying the latter, not the former. In my response to you, I wasn't positing any particular God or afterlife-destination. I was just trying to point out that I think that your assertion led to logical inconsistencies. And apparently you're OK with that, so there's really no way to argue against you, because we apparently don't agree about whether or not things have to be argued logically. My thought is this: logical truths seem to be necessary truths. That is, they are true in every possible world; it is impossible for them to be false. Now if God exists, he seems like the sort of being that would be a necessarily existent being--so he would exist in all possible worlds. So if there are some rules that are necessarily true and some being who inhabits every world that those rules are true, and if, as I think, God can't do a logical impossibility (like make a round square), then why can't God "break" the rules of logic? If he made the world, they're his rules. I think that it might turn out to be the case that the rules aren't made by God per se, but just are what they are in virtue of who God is. That is, it might turn out that God is eminently rational. In any event, I take it to be true that the rules of logic are necessary, inviolable truths (even for a deity), and it is that presupposition that governs my thinking in this area. (And I'd like to point out that we both have a set of presuppositions we're working from.)

I'm pained to see that you think that I'm using Pascal's wager. Personally, I think Pascal was full of it. I've yet to meet anyone who believed in God on the basis of Pascal's wager. No, I was not saying, "You'll be surprised to wake up in hell, pagan!" (Though I can see how you might read me that way, given the topic of the thread.) I was saying that if you turn out to be wrong about God-as-celestial-switch-tracks, you're going to be mighty surprised by whatever comes next (unless is the big "poof"--then you'll have no time to be surprised!).

Anyway, what fun talking about this without the yelling and screaming. Pure genius to put this in General Discussions instead of RWED.

________________________________________________________________________
- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

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CAUSAL

Thursday, May 17, 2007 1:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by xitwound117:
To those who subscribe to religiousity, mainly of the Jesus kind: do y'all really believe the "if you don't accept Jesus you burn" business? I can't tell if that's actually part of the faith, or some extremist part. I've been to church more than I'd like, but I can't seem to nail down an answer.

Ah, the classic question.

Unfortunately, it's not quite as simple as asking what Christianity teaches, because there are many different shades of Christianity, and they each seem to have their own answer.

The two basic positions are exclusivist and inclusivist. Inclusivism can be further divided into strong and weak inclusivism.

Exclusivists believe that all and only Jesus-believing folks will get into heaven. Everyone else will burn. This is predicated on things like Jesus' statement "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man will come to the Father but through me" (emphasis added). If asked about tribesman in Papua New Guinea who never even heard the name Jesus, they will maintain that it's just too bad for them.

Weak inclusivists say that all Jesus-believing folks will go to heaven, but that other people will be there two. For instance, since the Christian God is also the Jewish God, Jews prior to Jesus will be there (Abraham, Moses, etc). Also, people who never heard the name Jesus, but were convinced by the testimony of nature to worship nature's maker, will be there, too. There's a spectrum amongst these folks concerning who exactly gets in, but it's not just Jesus-believers.

Strong inclusivists believe that all Jesus-believers will be there, and that so will any other "good" person (whatever they take that to mean). So Ghandi, Siddhartha, Muhammad, and a whole passel of other folks will be there, even if they rejected Jesus.

Taking off my philosopher hat for the moment, and putting on the theologian one, if one accepts the Bible as authoritative (and yes, that's a huge "if"), it does seem to be the case that it teaches that those who out-and-out reject Jesus will not make it to heaven. It is not as clear what the fate of the Papua New Guinea tribesmen will be, hence the debate.

As a Christian person myself, hell has always given me fits, because it doesn't seem to fit with everything else I know about God. Where I finally had to come to rest, and be content, is this: I trust God to be just--not fair, mind you, but really just. That means that I can leave the eternal afterlife questions up to him and trust that he'll dispose of people justly. My responsibility isn't to walk around saying "You're going to hell." And it isn't to walk around preaching all day. It's to conform myself to Jesus' example as much as I possibly can, which means loving God and loving people as much as I can.

There, I'm out there. Tear me up.

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- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

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