For all those who believe in Christianity or Some form of it...
POSTED BY: RiveR6213
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 10:10
VIEWED: 25834
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To those who subscribe to religiousity, mainly of the Jesus kind: do y'all really believe the "if you don't accept Jesus you burn" business? I can't tell if that's actually part of the faith, or some extremist part. I've been to church more than I'd like, but I can't seem to nail down an answer.
May we never let Firefly die.
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Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:
I fear I must disagree with you. You see, in god's infinite wisdom, he makes us all right.
Also consider this: suppose a person dies believing he will go to heaven, and believing that all-and-only left-handed-redheads will be in heaven with him (ah, the games we play for the sake of political correctness). But undoubtedly there will be non-lefty-non-redheads who also opt into heaven. How will God solve this problem? Ah ha! Two heavens! But what about the non-lefty-non-redhead who wants to be in heaven with his left-handed-redheaded brother? He can't go to the left-handed redhead heaven (because only lefty-redheads go there). And his brother can't come to his heaven (because all lefty-redheads go to lefty-redhead heaven). How will God resolve this dilemma?
Or suppose that a person dies believing all-and-only lefty-redheads will go to heaven and that, whilst in heaven, they will be able to look into hell and see everyone else roasting down there. But how will God accomplish this? Because he has to give the lefty-redhead guy his way, but that seems like it will involve not giving other people their way. If my conception of heaven involves certain other people being in hell, then God either cannot give me what I want in heaven, or he cannot give those other what they want in the afterlife.
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Well there shall be no surprises for me. Hell is where I will go if there is a hell to go to and if there isn't anything to go to, and when we die, we're dead...I will be busy being dead to notice, therefore I won't be in a position to be disappointed or let down. Don't get me wrong. I don't relish the idea of going to a place where there is eternal suffering and pain for finite actions here in this dimension, but it seems that this is my lot. I say this because I know my nature, and that nature is evil, or at least selfishness in a petty sort of way. I am not one to be given a lot of power and not abuse it to make someone else suffer. I notice this as I conduct business with other people and other companies; I'm shrewd and a back-stabber when it gets right down to it. I am not one to be trusted, nor one you would care to turn your back on. If this isn't hell material I don't know what is.
And FutureMrsFillion, one doesn't have to be a Hitler to be evil. Sometimes ultimate evil comes in the form of some small, selfish act that cause pain and suffering to those around you in a manner that effects their course in life, which produces a result that is devastating in the long run. I am not Goose-stepping, in your face evil, but I am petty and evil enough to do damage to others; we all are when it gets right down to it.
Hell is where I am slated to go, and hell is what awaits, and there is nothing in this 'verse that can stop it.
*BTW, Causal, I didn't know you were such a deep thinker*
-River
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Quote:
Originally posted by Clearstatic:
I am a youth minister in Minnesota. I went to a bible college. By most I am considered a conservative Christian and yes I do believe in a heaven and hell. I do respect others opinions that do differ from mine, but I don't agree. There is a big difference however, many people do treat those as the same. I do have to say this is the first conversation I have read about Christianity/Religion without really aggressive and hate filled posts. Thank you all for this topic it is really good to discuss such matters.
I do understand that nobody knows me here since I believe this is my thrid post, but I just want to through this out there. If anyone has a prayer request I'm all ears and would love to pray for you.
Take Care
Clearstatic
P.S. Most translations of the Bible have Jesus' words in red ink not just the King James Version in case anyone was looking for another translation.
Thanks, but save your prayers for those who need it, and yes, we all seem to be getting along very well on this particular topic so far. Lot of good thinkers here, and I love the opinions posted so far. Oh, and also thanks for coming out and posting!
-River
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Quote:
Originally posted by xitwound117:
To those who subscribe to religiousity, mainly of the Jesus kind: do y'all really believe the "if you don't accept Jesus you burn" business? I can't tell if that's actually part of the faith, or some extremist part. I've been to church more than I'd like, but I can't seem to nail down an answer.
May we never let Firefly die.
I once had a debate with a person to had that particular belief. I asked the hypothetical question of whether members of a tribe who had never encountered a Christian missionary and therefore never heard of Jesus would be doomed to burn in hell even if they lead what would be considered a decent and moral life. The answer I was given was that yes these people could not get into heaven because they did not believe in Jesus. Personally I disagree with that. God is supposed to be all knowing and all merciful. Therefore, in my opinion, God would know and understand that these people did not know about Jesus and would not factor that into the criteria for getting into heaven. Rather God would judge people in that situation based on how they lived their lives and treated the people around them. I'm a Christian, but I have an open mind and a genuine interest and curiosity about religions outside of Christianity. Closed minded people tend to irritate me, because I think it's a bit much to tell people that just because they don't act they exact same way that the person does then they will burn in hell. Oh well, I guess if in the end I wind up in hell I'll have some good company, since all my friends aren't people who are insanely religious and therefore apparently will wind up down there with me.
Wash: This landing is gonna get pretty interesting
Mal: Define "interesting".
Wash: Oh God, of God, we're all going to die?
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Quote:
Originally posted by jtskier1200r:
Im coming out of the woodwork after a long hiatus on these boards for this question.
River6213, your initial comment said you believe you would go to hell. Why do you think that? Where are you getting the idea that lust and greed are bad? You must believe they are bad and yet you still do them. Seems that something outside of yourself must be saying they are bad, and Im guessing "society" isnt enough, for we all buck what society says often enough. For me, that thing by which I get my ideas of evil and good from is God. Where do you get yours?
Just a thought.
I got my idea of where I'm going by being very aware of my base nature. That nature is up to no good at all times. One could say that I'm woefully aware of the "Original Sin" concept. Putting it plainly, I'm rotten to the core and there is no real good in me. I accept this, and at certain points in my life I embrace it. This is why hell awaits me, and everything I touch turns to dust. Go figure...
-River
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There are two competing theories in my family.
First the Irish Catholic side believes in the Works Theory. That one’s actions determine their eligibility for heaven. People who have preformed enough good in life will be allowed into heaven. Those that haven’t must seek other options. How much good you have to do is an open question.
Second are the Southern Baptists who believe in the Grace Theory. I’ll admit, I don’t understand this one as clearly. That is that no human being can ever do enough good to overcome the original sin to make it into heaven, but one’s eligibility for heaven can be guaranteed if one is “saved by the grace of god.” That is one has received a ‘free pass’ to heaven, I suppose. So the question of how much good needs to be done becomes necessarily moot, but now the question is how do you define being “saved.” If you’re guaranteed access to heaven by being saved, that sort of suggests an opportunity for abuse, but if you’re truly saved then you necessarily want to do good. So that means that if you get saved and go murder a bunch of people or talk in the theater, then you were never really saved to begin with. So the process of being saved is dependent, evidently, on one’s own free will.
So where do I fall in to this?
Technically, I’m Catholic. Or sometimes Baptist if it shuts someone up. But I really don’t know where I’m going, the math is too complicated for me to crunch. However, let me give you a reading from the book of Constantine:
“I guess there's a plan for all of us. I had to die - twice - just to figure that out. Like the book says, He works in mysterious ways. Some people like it. Some people don't.”
Personally, I like it.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by LittleAlbatross29:
I am pagan ,so according to the Judeo -Christian philosophy..I'm gonna burn.
But I don't believe in hell..so it doesn't matter to me.
See you there River ! We can have a drink.
Bryce
*******
I've been reading all about Wicca and the old religions before Christianity showed up on the scene. They way different groups understood the concepts of God, and Goddesses was very interesting and there seemed to be a certain logic to it all then along came Christianity, and it had the effect of an atomic bomb on all the world's different beliefs and religions. What a world this is...
-River
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Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Is it just in eternal matters that God has to obey you? Or in other areas too?
Obey me... naw. Heck, perhaps on bad days everyone gets "poofed". Just pointing out god need not conform to anyone's expectation.
Quote:
Plus, the "omni" in omnipotent might not mean what you think. You'll be bucking the majority of thinkers going back well over a thousand years if you think that God can do the logically impossible (like make a round square or make it such that one and one make three). God's omnipotence is limited to the logically possible.
No arguement here. I'm sure you will agree that even god won't try to make 3 + 3 = 12. (unless he uses base 4 when he does math; don't forget to take that into account.) Point: check your assumptions.
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It doesn't limit God to say that he can't do the logically impossible, because when you say, "God can make a round square" you're not really saying anything coherent at all, because what you're saying is, "God can make something both be and not be at one and the same time and in one and the same way" and that's logically impossible. Why? Because the laws of logic are what they are in virtue of who God is. Violating the laws of logic would constitute a violation of his own nature, and that's something that God cannot do. It's like the old question, "Can God make a rock so big he can't lift it?" That's just nonsense, and nonsense is still nonsense, whether you're talking it about God or not.
hmmm, round square... I think we were arguing about heaven and hell; and in any case, you also later indicated one would have to "confront" reality. My point is, much of this is relativistic. Let's say someone dies, and finds herself in heaven, and mistakenly concludes those who believed in re-incarnation were "wrong", my point is, some folks might have gotten re-incarnated. You just don't know. Other people went "poof". You just don't know. Now, perhaps, it being heaven, one gets the "real news" on what happens to "everybody." So then they'd know. But heck... we are straying from the point.
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In the second place, I'm not saying that God can't dispose of his creatures however he sees fit, but I just can't see him doing to them whatever the creature would have him do. I'm sure that Hitler wouldn't choose to go to hell, if given the choice. I'm pretty sure that he'd choose heaven. But there's something repugnant about the idea of a "God" who would give Hitler an in on heaven just because that's what Hitler wanted.
I never claimed god was attractive.
Quote:
If this is the case, then God isn't really God at all. He makes no demands on us, has no expectations, any and all behavior is permissible with no eternal repercussions. He exists (on your view) solely to shunt us all into our self-selected eternal destiny: God the celestial switch-tracks. What I want to know is, if God is as wondrously obliging, why doesn't he fix things in the here and now?
God's ways are mysterious. The point is, you prefer to believe otherwise; that's fine. Just be clear this is a preference you have, and has little to do with logic. You presented a series of "logical" imperatives which, if followed, would conclude either there's a heaven or "reincarnation" is the ticket. If you are not willing to simply accept that your fundamental assumption is wrong, then I will simply posit for you: You only get what you want if god deems you are good; hell if that's what you think you deserve; heaven if that's what you think you deserve; and re-incarnation if... etc. We'll reserve "poofing" for those those who chose it, and those who are 'evil' by whatever standard god chooses to apply. The point is, there may be no absolute answers.
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If God is so concerned with our needs and desires, why is there evil in the world?
Good and evil are relativistic value judgements. While I will agree with you Hitler was evil in his actions, as you point out, I'm sure -he- wouldn't agree with
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
There are two competing theories in my family.
First the Irish Catholic side believes in the Works Theory. That one’s actions determine their eligibility for heaven. People who have preformed enough good in life will be allowed into heaven. Those that haven’t must seek other options. How much good you have to do is an open question.
Second are the Southern Baptists who believe in the Grace Theory. I’ll admit, I don’t understand this one as clearly. That is that no human being can ever do enough good to overcome the original sin to make it into heaven, but one’s eligibility for heaven can be guaranteed if one is “saved by the grace of god.” That is one has received a ‘free pass’ to heaven, I suppose. So the question of how much good needs to be done becomes necessarily moot, but now the question is how do you define being “saved.” If you’re guaranteed access to heaven by being saved, that sort of suggests an opportunity for abuse, but if you’re truly saved then you necessarily want to do good. So that means that if you get saved and go murder a bunch of people or talk in the theater, then you were never really saved to begin with. So the process of being saved is dependent, evidently, on one’s own free will.
So where do I fall in to this?
Technically, I’m Catholic. Or sometimes Baptist if it shuts someone up. But I really don’t know where I’m going, the math is too complicated for me to crunch. However, let me give you a reading from the book of Constantine:
“I guess there's a plan for all of us. I had to die - twice - just to figure that out. Like the book says, He works in mysterious ways. Some people like it. Some people don't.”
Personally, I like it.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
I guess the whole idea is that if you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and Savior, and then turn your back on sin, and attempt to do the will of God, then your chances of getting into heaven are going to be very good. If you don't accept Jesus as your Savior, then things will go very badly for you. I think that this is what I understand about the whole business, but I am clear that it really doesn't matter if you accept, or don't accept the so-called gift that God sent to us in the form of Jesus. I believe that God knows, or knew already who was going to be in, or out. Who was going to go to heaven or hell trillions of years before anyone of us was born. I figure in the long run...what's the point?
To hell I go!
-River
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