For all those who believe in Christianity or Some form of it...
POSTED BY: RiveR6213
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 10:10
VIEWED: 25834
PAGE 2 of 16
See edited post above.
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- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
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Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
The interesting thing about this is that we can't all be right. Leaving aside the postmodern disdain for truth, let's go with correspondence theory ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correspondence_theory_of_truth): truth is that which corresponds with the way things actually are. So two contradictory propositions can't be both be true in virtue of the law of non-contradiction ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_noncontradiction). Sor for instance, the propositions "There is a hell," and, "There is not a hell" cannot both be true. One must be false. And by the Law of Excluded Middle ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_excluded_middle) given any proposition (e.g. "There is a hell") then the further proposition "Either there is a hell or there is not a hell" is true (even if the truth value of the original proposition is unknown). So the thing that fascinates me about this is not that people disagree; that's bound to happen. The thing that fascinates me is that sometimes people behave as if their belief alone is sufficient for something's being true. But that's not the case. Suppose that it turns out that there really is no heaven at all. If that's the case, the belief that there is one is false, no matter how hard anyone believes it. And, if it turns out that there is no heaven at all, no one will go there, no matter how hard they believe it. Reality doesn't map onto our beliefs about it. It just is. The best we can hope for is that our beliefs accurately map onto reality, because eventually we will all be confronted with the reality of what happens after we die.
And, since we're being asked: heaven. But even though I'm a Christian-type person, I don't have a traditionally Augustinian vision of heaven. My view is closer to that of the Patristics.
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- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
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Thanks for the answer. BTW, nice response to the question, which did make me think "What if I died and didn't go to hell but heaven?" That would be a rude surprise for a person like myself. I bet I'd be stumbling about in heaven all confused, and somewhat annoyed feeling like I had been tricked and cheated out of something that I worked hard for and earned. Crazy talk I know, but what else can you expect from me?
I think it would be easier to go to a hell full of eternal punishment than go to a heaven and be safe and loved. I mean, how does a person relax in that situation?
-River
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Quote:Or not.
Originally posted by Causal:
The best we can hope for is that our beliefs accurately map onto reality, because eventually we will all be confronted with the reality of what happens after we die.
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I'm pointin' right at it!
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Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:Quote:Or not.
Originally posted by Causal:
The best we can hope for is that our beliefs accurately map onto reality, because eventually we will all be confronted with the reality of what happens after we die.
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I'm pointin' right at it!
That would be a relief to find out that there is nothing indeed after death, but of course I'd be too busy being dead to notice, or be satisfied.
-River
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Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:Quote:Or not.
Originally posted by Causal:
The best we can hope for is that our beliefs accurately map onto reality, because eventually we will all be confronted with the reality of what happens after we die.
Planning to live forever, are we?
Death and taxes, my friend--we're all going to die. Ergo, we'll all be confronted with whatever reality brings at the time of death. Even if that's annihilation, and we aren't conscious of the reality of it, we'll still all get confronted with it. You might say that in some sense, death is one of the only reality that we'll encounter in its unvarnished state.
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- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
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Thanks for posting this thread, River! Too long I been feeling like I'm the only Christian Browncoat whatever walked this 'verse. Here's hopeful to find out if there's anybody else on my crew. But let me make this abundantly clear: Not all men of God are out to make everybody feel guilty and judged. I think people believe what they want to believe, I think everybody has that right, and if you respect my belief I'll respect yours. Fact of the matter is, hell will be air-conditioned afore I talk down to anybody who doesn't wear a crucifix (but I draw the line at seeing one worn upside down).
Me, I'm an Orthodox Christian - Greek Orthodox, to be nitpicky. Our doctrine and practises are a mite different from Catholicism and Protestant, to name a couple. For one thing, on the ask-away of heaven or hell? I'd like to think heaven's my eternal home. But in the Orthodox Church there's a concept called 'The Ladder of Divine Ascent.' Just like it suggests - making it to the gates o' pearl is a lifelong climb. Sometimes the Hell-iance gets a hold of you and drags you down a few rungs, but by and large it's up to you whether you got the spiritual strength to get climbing again. So how do you keep making that climb? Faith, prayer, and sticking to your guns, and keeping yourself prepared just in case you ain't long for this world. I've had my fair portion of trouble with that these last couple of years, but I think the Man Upstairs knows what's in everybody's heart, whether their intentions are good or bad (or just bad in the Latin). My real name means 'Bearer of Christ', and I try to remind myself that Christ wouldn't much care to be borne by a rotted soul.
This tone sound familiar? Thought so. Well, I am a Mal clone - with the matter of faith as one of the exceptions. Takes a lot to weaken my faith and I'm glad to say it ain't been done often. That's 'cause I'm one of them as believes everything happens for a reason and all God's creatures have a place in the choir (though I've known a couple of exceptions to that as well). Anybody who's fixing to turn their back on the Christian Church for whatever reason, IMO, really ought to look into Orthodoxy before they give up altogether - as I very well might have if I hadn't converted. Ain't a lot changed in the last 1,974 years (which is how long the Orthodox Church has been around). Methinks there's a reason for that, too. 
Watch how he soars,
Oh my gosh!
Reaver harpoons -
Poor ol' Wash.
FIREFLY
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Quote:You misunderstood me, Causal. I am a total realist and do not dispute my mortality.
Originally posted by Causal:Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:Quote:Or not.
Originally posted by Causal:
The best we can hope for is that our beliefs accurately map onto reality, because eventually we will all be confronted with the reality of what happens after we die.
Planning to live forever, are we?
Death and taxes, my friend--we're all going to die. Ergo, we'll all be confronted with whatever reality brings at the time of death. Even if that's annihilation, and we aren't conscious of the reality of it, we'll still all get confronted with it. You might say that in some sense, death is one of the only reality that we'll encounter in its unvarnished state.
What I dispute is the notion that "we will be confronted by the reality of what happens after we die", necessarily. If, as I suspect, man is meat (to quote Joseph Heller), nothing happens after we die... so there will be neither need nor opportunity to confront anything.
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I'm pointin' right at it!
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Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
What I dispute is the notion that "we will be confronted by the reality of what happens after we die", necessarily. If, as I suspect, man is meat (to quote Joseph Heller), nothing happens after we die... so there will be neither need nor opportunity to confront anything.
Where I think you're misunderstanding me is on the idea of "confront." I don't mean a personal (i.e. conscious/cognitive) confrontation. What I mean is that there is a reality about what happens upon death (whether that reality is annihilation or rebirth or heaven or what-have-you), and that upon one's arrival at death, one's beliefs will have nothing to do with what actually happens. Reality will be what happens, regardless of what we believe about it. For instance, suppose that we aren't meat (just for the sake of argument), that instead we reincarnate. When you die, you're not just going to cease to exist, you're going to reincarnate, whether you believe in that or not. Now I don't know for certain what happens (that is, I don't know with absolute certainty). But I do know this: I will die. And whatever the reality of death is, it will happen to me, regardless of what I believe about it now.
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- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
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Ah, shiny. I figured we were describing the same elephant from different perspectives.
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First of all I don't believe in a higher power of any sort. I have tried but I cant. Its not logical. Like time travel episodes in sci-fi series. But I kinda admire the folks that are able to.
The thought of there being a God, and that after we die we get judged is the most creepyfing thought I can think of. The thought that my life is in some form or other belonging to a deity is outright scary.
I would appreciate it though if it was alife after death. Being an ateist and all makes death kinda scary too. An evengelical christian friend of mine told me once, that even though he liked me as a person and was sad because of it, I would indeed go to hell. And if hes church is right I am.
If anyone gets their hands on the recepie for eternal life PM me.
Constance
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