Viral Newspaper Ads
POSTED BY: 11thHour
UPDATED: Monday, June 11, 2007 02:23
VIEWED: 21783
PAGE 4 of 5
@11thHour:
"""
The "cortex link" is there to round out the theme of the ad, and since it is followed by a very recognized "www." url, any reader would understand this is a website address. But if it's something that would deter people, it can be easily left out.
"""
I never said that people wouldn't understand what the cortex link thing was, and would confuse what a url was.
IMO, there is a fine line between the wtf factor v.s. the people thinking something is strange. IMO, having the cortex thing in there would give people the strange feeling more than anything else.
"""
The point of the ads I suggested was the "WTF?" factor.
You're suggesting a different kind of ad here. There are direct ads with easily understood wording, and ads that come from an unexpected direction... they are ads that aren't worded like traditional ads.
"""
People get scared (or similar feelings) of things that they don't know. It is my assertion that these types of ads would invoke such feelings. At the very least, even the "ads that come from an unexpected direction" have some familiar element(s) to them. It is my opinion that the ones you listed do not meet this criteria.
Let's be clear, this is not about getting all artistic and considering only the artistic side from a FF/S fan perspective. This whole thing has a very practical goal. And if the ad leaves non-fans not knowing what went on, a la the Simpsons Mr. Plow commercial, then the job isn't getting done.
"""
The ad ideas I suggested are just examples. But there's method behind the madness. They contain certain word cues that are meant to appeal to people who might be more likely to like a show like Firefly. Think of those ads as a kind of bait meant to attract potential fans of the 'verse.
"""
In your opinion. Take your examples for Classified for instance. No offense, but if I saw a similar ad for say Stargate SG-1, I'd think that there community is one in which I certainly wouldn't want to participate in. Even though I do like Stargate SG-1.
Creative yes. Neat to find on a FF/S site for a FF/S fan, yes. But, we are not the people on the outside.
"""
You mentioned avoiding using references that an outsider wouldn't understand. The above example you suggested might look to an outsider like an advertisement for "so very pretty brown coats". Literally... brown coats... with the merging of the words being a typo.
"""
I did note an exception, yes?
"""
Someone with an expectation of browsing a selection of "pretty brown coats", and coming upon the Fireflyfans.com website, would be quite confused. But not the kind of confused that would lead to further investigation. The "bait" used isn't really designed to draw in new people who might like the 'verse.
"""
Um, below you question my assertion but you're doing pretty much the same thing yourself here that you criticise below. If that's your opinion (I obviously disagree) fine. But, let's not say things without qualifying that. Let's practice what we preach, yes?
"""
Really? You know this for a fact?
The claim that the category of people who "hates westerns and/or sci-fi and/or opera is pretty much everyone" is pretty strong. "Hates" and "pretty much everyone"?! Do you really think this is true?
A well done Western is classic storytelling and loved by many, many people. It's a genre that is time proven, and anyone familiar with the show Deadwood knows just how compelling a "Western" can be.
And pretty much everyone "hates" Sci-Fi too? Wow. A whole lotta Sci-Fi franchises must be surviving on practically no one...
"""
There was an "and/or" NOT just an "and". As in one or more. As in the combination of people that hate one or more of these things is pretty much everyone. And I thought the hyperbole was obvious.
But, if you think that Sci-Fi people number so very many, how come pretty much everything that the Sci-Fi channel has produced has struggled? How come pretty much all Sci-Fi stuff isn't very profitable if it is profitable at all? If anythin
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SigmaNunki
Please note the last part of my post to which you replied:
Quote:
The ad suggestions I made were just that, suggestions. Something to get the ball rolling, but to offer a stylistic launching point.
If people would rather make ads that are more literal, or do not contain any 'verse underlying themes, that's fine. Because what it comes down to is whatever works is good. We just want to reach out and connect in a way that will attract people that have a good potential of becoming FF/S fans.
What might be done as an experiment is to try different styles of ad, thematic and general, just to see which ones are the most effective. It's all a process of trial and error to discover what works the best.
I put this at the end of my post because it's the most important part. Posting back and forth about the details of how to word the ads will eventually bog down our energies.
There are no bosses here. I was just expressing my opinion and fleshing out the philosophy behind the wording of my ads. I'm perfectly happy to drop this part of the conversation and move forward.
Please feel free to create ads you think would work well. Absolutely get them out where people can see them. It'd be great to attract a new surge of people to Firefly and Serenity. I'd be awesome to see the DVD sales just keep staying high on the best seller lists.
I look forward to your ideas and hope that more people will become interested in participating in this endeavor. I have confidence that the more fans who join in will create more great brainstorming... this idea could hopefully become something very positive for the 'verse.
Every bit of positive guerilla marketing helps.
11th Hour
P.S.
As to this statement in your post:
Quote:
No offense, but people have been using your ads (that are quite particular to FF/S) for some time and it doesn't seem as though they are working to a significant degree. Perhaps it is this that should send the signal that we need to change things.
I'm not sure what "ads" you are referring to. The ads suggested in this thread were never used. Another fan launched a promotion called "The Paper Chase" which involved newspaper ads, but I was not involved with that.
Again, if you want to create ads, please do so. But it would be better to just be positive and go ahead and do it. Show us in more detail what you have in mind. Move forward with your plan, the more it takes shape the better the chances that people will join in.
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God I'm tired. Please forgive me for any funny wording.
Quote:
Originally posted by 11thHour:
Every bit of positive guerilla marketing helps.
Very true. That is certainly is _not_ in question. But, what I was/am trying to do is post my opinions which I think will lead to more effective ads. For what it's worth at least.
Quote:
Originally posted by 11thHour:
I'm not sure what "ads" you are referring to. The ads suggested in this thread were never used. Another fan launched a promotion called "The Paper Chase" which involved newspaper ads, but I was not involved with that.
Inaccurate wording on my part. I was referring to the posters and such on your webpage that was linked in your sig.
http://the11thhour.home.att.net/
Creative, yes. Pretty, yes. Fun for us, yes. But, an effective marketing tool? IMO, not for a general audience and I'm not aware of being historically incorrect on this (though I may be?).
Quote:
Originally posted by 11thHour:
Again, if you want to create ads, please do so. But it would be better to just be positive and go ahead and do it. Show us in more detail what you have in mind. Move forward with your plan, the more it takes shape the better the chances that people will join in.
I appreciate that you are hinting that you want me to put my money where my mouth is and you certainly are right to do so. But, I already have.
I'll note that I have already pointed out what I consider problems with things that was already posted. I have posted a general philosophy regarding creating ads with example. I have also put forth another delivery method that, to my knowledge, hasn't been considered before.
I have also made a suggestion in another thread that you might be interested in:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=20&t=28669#493597
As it could/should be implemented artistically.
I also appreciate that you want things to remain in the most positive light as possible. I certainly agree.
But, when one is /only/ positive, things that might not be as effective, or possibly even counter-productive, might be done. In the end, this is far more damaging than any criticism that might be done here. The former wastes energy and resources, and latter actually detracts. Constructive criticism is a great tool for discussing what does and doesn't work. It is part of the brainstorming process.
Basically, to rule out constructive criticism is a bad idea. And I think that I've done that here. If it came off as the not constructive variety, I apologize. It was certainly meant to be constructive. I will try to be more vigilant in the future.
In closing, because I think this point is important enough to bear repeating, I'll point out a problem that I see on these forums in 90+% of the ideas. That problem being the audience problem.
Certainly, a lot of these 90+% ideas are fun and good. But, to us. So, if we're talking about trying to get the community members be more active, etc, then these are certainly ideas to be strongly considered. There is no question.
But, as soon as our target audience moves from within the community to outside it, we must reconsider. And I honestly believe, because of my experience with and observation of people from different walks of life, that the type of ad that you suggested as a starting point above, would probably detract.
Though, please do not think that I think that your suggestion ads are totally without merit. They certainly /do/ have there place. As I said, it's about the audience.
For instance, I'd love to see them, and/or similar things, in a newsletter or e-zine produced by and for the community. I think they'd be fun there.
At any rate, I feel that this is where I should be wrapping up the post in a way that leaves magical happiness and warm fuzzies in your heart. But, I'm way too tired to think of one. So, let's just pretend that happened.
----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We d
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Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:Quote:
Originally posted by 11thHour:
I'm not sure what "ads" you are referring to. The ads suggested in this thread were never used. Another fan launched a promotion called "The Paper Chase" which involved newspaper ads, but I was not involved with that.
Inaccurate wording on my part. I was referring to the posters and such on your webpage that was linked in your sig.
http://the11thhour.home.att.net/
Creative, yes. Pretty, yes. Fun for us, yes. But, an effective marketing tool? IMO, not for a general audience and I'm not aware of being historically incorrect on this (though I may be?).
Yes, you are incorrect.
Historically, and currently, the posters/mini-flyers are an effective marketing tool, and they do appeal to people unfamiliar with Firefly/Serenity. This is not just my opinion. I, and many other fans, have seen their effectiveness and used them with great success. I could cite numerous stories, but that would be very time consuming. If you want testimonials, ask the experienced, longer term, fans.
At any rate, the posters/mini-flyers work well for what they were designed to do. They aren't the only way to guerilla market, and it's always a good idea to think of additional tools to add to our arsenal.
Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:Quote:
Originally posted by 11thHour:
Again, if you want to create ads, please do so. But it would be better to just be positive and go ahead and do it. Show us in more detail what you have in mind. Move forward with your plan, the more it takes shape the better the chances that people will join in.
I appreciate that you are hinting that you want me to put my money where my mouth is and you certainly are right to do so. But, I already have.
Well, what I was saying is that more than one example would be better.
Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I have also made a suggestion in another thread that you might be interested in:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=20&t=28669#493597
As it could/should be implemented artistically.
An interesting idea, though a bit time intensive. Often street marketers need to post their promotions in a hurry, hence posters being a handy thing to use. I know this from experience, and having to work stealthily in the (very) early morning hours.
As to the sidewalk chalk messages, if the idea was effective then there might be some folks around here willing to give it a try.
Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
But, when one is /only/ positive, things that might not be as effective, or possibly even counter-productive, might be done. In the end, this is far more damaging than any criticism that might be done here. The former wastes energy and resources, and latter actually detracts. Constructive criticism is a great tool for discussing what does and doesn't work. It is part of the brainstorming process.
Basically, to rule out constructive criticism is a bad idea. And I think that I've done that here. If it came off as the not constructive variety, I apologize. It was certainly meant to be constructive. I will try to be more vigilant in the future.
I believe in constructive criticism. I seek it out in my professional work, and have people I trust who I know will give me honest feedback. However, certain discussions reach a point where the "agree to disagree" thing needs to kick in. Especially in this particular case, as I really don't care anymore if people want to use the ad ideas I suggested in this thread, or not.
Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
At any rate, I feel that this is where I should be wrapping up the post in a way that leaves magical happiness and warm fuzzies in your heart. But, I'm way too tired to think of one. So, let's just pretend that happened.
Don't know if you meant that to sound condescending, but it sure reads that way.
Anyway, not too interested in thi
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"""
Yes, you are incorrect.
"""
Then I stand corrected
"""
If you want testimonials, ask the experienced, longer term, fans.
"""
You seem to be implying that I'm not an experienced longer term fan. I hope that you aren't implying this because I am. Just because I'm not familiar withe one aspect of this fandom doesn't mean that I'm not.
"""
Well, what I was saying is that more than one example would be better.
"""
I can't disagree. But, I work more on the back-burner principle. The ideas I presented were the work of that over several days. If/when I come up with more, I'll be sure to post them
"""
An interesting idea, though a bit time intensive. Often street marketers need to post their promotions in a hurry, hence posters being a handy thing to use. I know this from experience, and having to work stealthily in the (very) early morning hours.
As to the sidewalk chalk messages, if the idea was effective then there might be some folks around here willing to give it a try.
"""
Unfortunately, I was wasn't privy to the effectiveness of the campaign. So, I can't really speak on that. But, I would think that with careful choosing of locations and what was drawn, it would be at least somewhat effective e.g. Bus stops around Universities or high-schools. Hell, someone in art class might be able to get credit for it. If it's a class project, then late night stealth wouldn't be required.
But, yes it's somewhat time consuming.
I imagine that something like one of your posters might work. Since it's "just" shading it'd be quicker to draw and not terribly chalk intensive.
At any rate, just a thought for those more artistically inclined than myself
"""
I believe in constructive criticism. I seek it out in my professional work, and have people I trust who I know will give me honest feedback. However, certain discussions reach a point where the "agree to disagree" thing needs to kick in. Especially in this particular case, as I really don't care anymore if people want to use the ad ideas I suggested in this thread, or not.
"""
Although I have said (and fully believe) that your ads wouldn't be effective for the audience that you are targeting through the medium your chose, an idea popped in my head today.
Instead of targeting a general readership through local newspapers, I think ads similar to what you posted might be appropriate to have in Sci-Fi/Western specific magazines (online or not), etc. Of course altering to target the specific audience.
Anyway, just a thought if you change your mind.
"""
Don't know if you meant that to sound condescending, but it sure reads that way.
Anyway, not too interested in this discussion ending in "magical happiness" and "warm fuzzies"... I was really more interested in it just ending.
"""
I thought that it was obvious with the that I meant it to _not_ be condescending; more funny than anything else. And you missed my hyperbole again.
But, if you really want to end something, I'd suggest being somewhat more explicit in the future. And not I'm not being condescending or any such thing here. I just mention it because when people are subtle to one degree or another, one cannot expect others to pick that up. Especially when we are communicating solely by text.
"""
My attempt to conclude on a positive note seems to have come off as Pollyannaish. When I'm sounding extra, extra positive, it's often just me making a concerted effort to hold back the sardonic bitch within.
"""
I'll try to keep that in mind if we discuss again
----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
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SigmaNunki,
I've refrained from posting hoping not to be the recipient of your ire. I expect I'll get some now.
Seems to me when 11th Hour attempted a bit of feedback and participation you sure cut that off quickly. Now you may not have meant that, you called it constructive criticism, but I know my heart went out to her. As someone who would like to contribute ideas to this campaign I have to say I feel pretty tentative about doing so. If you would treat 11th Hour who has sacrificed so much for this community and worked so tirelessly all these years and who has produced some of the most beautiful art in this fandom, not to mention created the cover art for the RPG like that, how will you "constructively criticize" me when I submit something to this thread?
Is anyone who provides an idea or has had a past idea that doesn't quite match what you think of as successful going to have to be subjected to that same feeling? Because that didn't feel like "constructive criticism" to me, that felt like good old fashioned "conflict". It felt like to me that you enjoyed it too, and I'm just not into feeling bad while I'm here, Sig... I love my community and I want to work hard for a sequel, but do I want to really feel as bad as I'm guessin' you can make me feel? Is it going to be worth it?
It's been my experience that when the community plans something big ( no matter who has the idea, no matter who gets the credit, no matter what it's about ) that there needs to be that feeling of esprit de corps, the common goal, the thing to reach for all together. The feeling of all inclusiveness is inspiring and part of what makes us Browncoats. It calls us to service and makes us want to participate.
And therein lies the problem. I know you guys are in the planning stages, but I already feel unwelcome to participate. I would guess that 11th Hour feels unwelcome to participate as well. You don't have to be a mind readin' genius to see that you made a very sweet, hard working member of our community feel as if her ideas which have been working solidly for years aren't up to your criteria. There are folks in this fandom who love 11th Hour, Sig...they will be put off from your ideas and leadership because of the way you treated her.
Now for some constructive criticism from me. If
you can dish it out, let's hope you can take some.
You will need every one of us, Sig to make something big happen. Whether we're doing some sidewalk drawing in one town, or using 11th Hour's posters that you dissed so readily to recruit like we have for years now or buying the DVD SE en masse, you're going to need us all. We need to feel hooked into whatever you are deciding we're going to do.
We will follow a leader who makes us feel included.
We won't follow a leader who makes us feel disliked and unappreciated. Even the lowliest of the folks who will surround you and work for you, Sig will need to feel like they're following a leader who deserves their devotion and hard work.
If you want us all to participate and not blow off your plans, I suggest an attitude adjustment.
Call us to your side, don't expect us to fall in behind you.
Respect us as you would have us respect you.
ETA: I removed Anduine's name as he's had nothing to do with this feeling of discomfort you make me feel, in fact he's been savvy and welcoming in all missives and posts. You could take a cue from him, Sigmanunki.
To join us go here: http://www.serenitymovie.org/browncoats/forums/index.php?showtopic=870
5
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I for one am not worthy and bow down in awe to both FollowMal AND 11th hour and thank them BOTH for ALL the tireless work they have put in for all this time!
And if I had one of those neat little bowing emoticons it would surely be displayed!
---- plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose
Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre, Owner of a too big Turnippy smelling coat with MR scratched in the neck (thanks FollowMal!)
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
FORSAKEN original
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Your post seems to imply that any response by myself will be interpreted as hostile. I honestly hope that this isn't the case. Below you will find my response to your post and I hope that it will be interpreted as a "matter of fact" response with _no_ hostility. And I hope any response that you may give will be made in the same way.
Quote:
Originally posted by FollowMal:
I've refrained from posting hoping not to be the recipient of your ire. I expect I'll get some now.
...snip...
Please don't take this the wrong way, but it is my impression that you're going along with 11th Hour's interpretation of what I said. 11th Hour choose to interpret my posts as hostile, even after I explicitly stated (and re-iterated) the contrary. Even after I spend *much* time wording things so that they wouldn't be (if read fresh). But she choose to continue to interpret them with a hostile bent and you seem to have done this as well. I /cannot/ control that people do this and I don't think that it is fair to blame me for what I can't control.
i.e. I dialed back, but she decided not to listen. Don't blame me for that.
But, I actually re-read my original post in this thread and I can't say I see it as being overly aggessive. As in, I said what I thought was the problem (*very* briefly), my opinion of how to fix that, an example ad, a delivery method that I didn't/don't think has been posted before, and then another general idea about how to do things. Now given how much I suggested, and how light on critisism was in that post, /I/ really don't think that *I* deserved the "ire" (as you put it) from 11th Hour.
IMO, this conversation started off with me offering constructive criticism and some ideas and then having to defended myself from 11th Hour even after I dialed back as I saw that clearly wasn't working, not to mention offering more ideas. And now I seem to be bearing the sole blame.
In all honesty, I think that you are letting whatever argument that 11th Hour and myself had overshadow the ideas that I put forth to the point where you aren't acknowledging them.
Quote:
Originally posted by FollowMal:
Is anyone who provides an idea or has had a past idea that doesn't quite match what you think of as successful going to have to be subjected to that same feeling?
"My" criteria will be the same as it is for _any_ marketing campaign. You choose a target audience. From that, you look to see where they are and create ads that target those specific people. If someone sees that the target audience doesn't match the ads, why shouldn't one point it out? Because designing an ad that doesn't fit the audience that will see it can be disastrous.
I made (what I believe to be) a strong case against those ads (or similar one) being used in that way. But, as you are well aware, in my previous post, I DID note where similar ads might be effective. One needs to either change the ad or change the target. And by the end, I offered ideas for both. Let's not ignore that.
Quote:
Originally posted by FollowMal:
And therein lies the problem. I know you guys are in the planning stages, but I already feel unwelcome to participate. I would guess that 11th Hour feels unwelcome to participate as well. You don't have to be a mind readin' genius to see that you made a very sweet, hard working member of our community feel as if her ideas which have been working solidly for years aren't up to your criteria. There are folks in this fandom who love 11th Hour, Sig...they will be put off from your ideas and leadership because of the way you treated her.
This is actually one of the problems that I see in communities. And it isn't limited to here or fandoms in general. That problem being that certain members of the community are "sacred" (please note the hyperbole). That they can't be touched and if you dare to criticize them, you have to be so careful it isn't funny.
It was what I loved about this community when I first came here. No-one was above anyon
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When the resurgence in guerilla marketing endeavors appeared, I was happy to see it. The 'verse could do with a good boost, and it can be a very rewarding experience for the participants.
For the record, and I didn't think I had to state it as it seemed (at least to me) self evident:
• I am not trying to lead anything here. I was just doing my cheerleader thing when I saw a resurgence of guerilla marketing interest.
• Any perceptions of "hierarchy" are subjective. If other fans respond nicely to me it's because I've been around so damn long and done a lot of things for the 'verse, so people know me. Any opinions on someone being "sacred" are though the eyes of the beholder. Browncoats, and friends, stand up for each other all the time.
Now that that is out of the way, I truly hope the subject of "sacredness" doesn't rear its head again. It's very unpleasant.
Unless of course one of us insists on being called "Your Majesty", wears a shiny hat, and declares him/herself to be the King of All Londinium. That stuff has gotta stop
11th Hour
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Quote:
Originally posted by 11thHour:
• I am not trying to lead anything here.
No-one said you were.
Quote:
Originally posted by 11thHour:
• Any perceptions of "hierarchy" are subjective. If other fans respond nicely to me it's because I've been around so damn long and done a lot of things for the 'verse, so people know me. Any opinions on someone being "sacred" are though the eyes of the beholder. Browncoats, and friends, stand up for each other all the time.
No-one said that you tried to make this happen. I just said that this certainly seems to be the case. Such things /can/ and /do/ happen in an organic way. Sometimes over a good chunk of time. Sometimes without anyone noticing. But, this doesn't mean that it doesn't happen nor is it not the case. Please stop thinking/assuming that I'm attacking you when I'm not.
But, I must point out that there is a big difference between being liked, defending oneself or someone else and acting as a force of vengeance (which FM's post certainly reads as). The last one being problematic.
And btw, let's not bring up how long we've been here. It's pretty much as ugly as bring up the "sacred". And if you think that I'm bring that up b/c I'm new, check my registration date. You've been here only 5 1/2 months more than I and when we've been here on the order of 3-4 years, that number isn't terribly significant. And just because your work in more visible than mine doesn't make my work any less than yours; just not published yet.
Quote:
Originally posted by 11thHour:
Now that that is out of the way, I truly hope the subject of "sacredness" doesn't rear its head again. It's very unpleasant.
Unless of course one of us insists on being called "Your Majesty", wears a shiny hat, and declares him/herself to be the King of All Londinium. That stuff has gotta stop
Now there a transparent comment if I ever saw one.
I thought that I was being clear. I thought that I had finally explained myself. But, this is ridiculous. If civil discourse is going to happen then such transparent comments cannot be posted. I thought this would be obvious, but clearly it isn't.
I think it is clear that you and FM (possibly others) have made up your minds that I'm a bastard and I think it is clear that nothing I say will change that i.e. it is clearly a lose lose situation for me.
So, until you guys are willing to see my side of things and truly want to have civil discourse, let's just ignore each-other. It's probably be best that way.
Please consider this my last post until the above criteria is met.
Good day.
----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
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