Real World Event Discussions
Exploring Anti-Americanism
POSTED BY: Khyron
UPDATED: Monday, April 30, 2007 03:01
VIEWED: 18266
PAGE 20 of 23
Saturday, April 28, 2007 4:37 PM
Quote:Aside from Iraq and Afghanistan... that's a pretty big exception Geezer, and I'm not willing to "except" it because it's a perfect example of why the USA is feared and hated. In addition to all the usual susepcts - Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, Oman, Pakistan, Djibouti - the USA also has military installations in Uzbekistan and Kyrgystan, and perhaps in Tajikistan and Georgia as well. This is not exactly un-noticed by Russia, China, and the rest of Asia, since our forces ring Russia and China.
Aside from Iraq and Afghanistan, there are about 180,000 civilian and uniformed military employees outside the US, so "several hundred thousand" is pretty much impossible. I'd also question the use of the word "hostile". Are we planning on taking over Germany, Japan, South Korea, Belgium, England, Kuwait, etc.?
www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EF10Ak01.html
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Always look upstream.
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Saturday, April 28, 2007 4:39 PM
Geezer- You're just being snide.
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Always look upstream.
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Saturday, April 28, 2007 4:49 PM
Quote:No, you just don't like the fact that someone is actually debating. I don't cherry-pick, Finn. And I'm definitely not justifying bigotry. I intend to look at substantive facts.
I’m sure you would enjoy that since cherry-picking the details and hiding behind spurious arguments of policy is how anti-Americanism is justified, and in reality how all forms of bigotry are justified. But disagreeing with a specific American action, individual or policy is not anti-Americanism. I disagree with many specific American actions, individuals and policies. No matter how much someone disagrees with certain American actions, a fair minded person would probably find many America actions that they agreed with. So you’re proposal doesn’t serve the debate at all.
For example, I can fully understand other nations' resentment of our large military presence in the Middle East, which has prevented other nations from establishing concessions, contracts, pipelines, and ports with oil producers. In addition, we have a fairly long history of interfering in South and Central America, very much to the detriment of the people. If they hate us there's a lot of reasons why. And I can understand many people reacting with fear towards our invasion of Iraq and IMHO nothing breeds hatred like fear.
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Always look upstream.
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Saturday, April 28, 2007 4:55 PM
Quote:Well, now that you've placed it in that frame of reference, I would say that, despite the fact that Chinese troops in Venezula, Brazil, and Cuba wouldn't actually "ring" the US, we might view that with some alarm. I'm still not sure how this might apply to French anti-Americanism, but lead on.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Um... as I recall (and you do not) I posited that Venzuela, Cuba, and Brazil were willing allies of the Chinese. Since you're misleading the discussion, let me also specify that we're not willing allies of the Chinese. Now, having re-stated the scenario to bring it back to where I started, would most Americans not consider being ringed by Chinese forces with some alarm?
Quote:
"Where did I say that? I said that opinion should be based on the situation, not just "Oh, gosh, there's troops overseas, aren't we evil?"" I'm actually trying to place this in context, but as per your previous example you seem to be avoiding it.
Far from it. All your posts have pretty much said that any troops overseas are an act of aggression, and it doesn't matter if that aggression is justified by events.
Quote:What Allied invasions during WWII do you think I'd be uncomfortable with? Which ones are you uncomfortable with?
"So the invasion of France in WWII was a bad thing? Frame of reference, SignyM."
There were many more invasions than what occurred in WWII. But if you narrow your vision to exclude the ones that you're less comfortable with, then of course you'll never understand what people might be responding to because you refuse to look.
Quote:
No, I was thinking of Cuba, I just hadn't read the thread far back enough to see Khyron's post. But I have to say Geezer that if you're feeling it necessary to take cheap shots then you must be feeling uncomfortable.
Hardly a cheap shot. You made a statement then tried to finesse your way out of backing it up. I called you on it. You've left a lot of questions unanswered in this thread.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Saturday, April 28, 2007 5:05 PM
Quote:I'm just pointing out that we've established a similar situation with Russia and China and that we pretty much occupy the Middle East, and this would be viewed with some resentment and alarm by those nations and others in the region. I linked Asia Times, which should give you some indication of how we're viewed there and why.
I'm still not sure how this might apply to French anti-Americanism, but lead on.
Quote:Any troops overseas are an act of aggression against somebody. Sometimes it's justified sometimes it's not. But I've said that already- with examples (the Axis powers)- so I'm not going to repeat it after this.
Far from it. All your posts have pretty much said that any troops overseas are an act of aggression, and it doesn't matter if that aggression is justified by events.
Quote:You misread, or I misphrased. Let me re-phrase my comment: The United States has invaded many other nations besides the invasions that were associated with WWII. But you keep referencing WWII (and for the sake of completeness since I don't want to get into the kind of quibbly argument that you specialize in: Korea and Vietnam) and seem unwilling to look beyond them. In other words, you seem unwilling to discuss some of our actions in detail because they appear to make you uncomfortable, possibly because even YOU think they were unjustified.
What Allied invasions during WWII do you think I'd be uncomfortable with? Which ones are you uncomfortable with?
Quote:First of all I didn't make a statement, YOU made the challenge. And yes, I was thinking of Guantanamo. But since you think you're a mind reader: QUICK GEEZER! Tell me what I'm thinking!
You made a statement then tried to finesse your way out of backing it up. I called you on it.
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Always look upstream.
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Saturday, April 28, 2007 5:44 PM
Quote:It’s a typical one-sided argument, cherry picking details and hiding behind policy. What you want to discuss are the specific American actions that you believe have contributed to hating America. There are many American actions that have adverse affects on US image in some localized region, but that’s the case with all countries. So how does the US get single out? France for instance has many in Africa that disagree with its many military incursions, does this justify hating the French? There are many actions that the US has taken that should be considered as positive influences. The US fought to defend Muslim populations in the Balkans? The US provides the international security needed to maintain the Neutrality Treaty. The US has brought considerable prosperity and freedom to many nations. In order to understand Anti-Americanism, where it draws from American action, you must be willing to examine all of it, not just what you believe has contributed to fearing America. And the sum total of Ameica’s influence on the world, even today, is far more positive then negative. A great deal of anti-Americanism draws, not on fearing America, but on not fearing America. Anti-US propaganda is often disseminated by the oppressive governments of many nations, in order to misdirected anger towards the policies of the local government towards the US. This occurs because the people in those countries have no reason to fear the US, but every reason to fear their own government. Much of it arises from envy; this is particularly the case in Europe. That’s also another facet you’ll ignore. Anti-Americanism is often drawn from shallow or misguided understanding of the issues and broad generalizations. As is already clear from this discussion so far. Anti-Americanism is a more complex phenomenon than you appear prepared to discuss.
Originally posted by SignyM:
No, you just don't like the fact that someone is actually debating. I don't cherry-pick, Finn. And I'm definitely not justifying bigotry. I intend to look at substantive facts.
For example, I can fully understand other nations' resentment of our large military presence in the Middle East, which has prevented other nations from establishing concessions, contracts, pipelines, and ports with oil producers. In addition, we have a fairly long history of interfering in South and Central America, very much to the detriment of the people. If they hate us there's a lot of reasons why. And I can understand many people reacting with fear towards our invasion of Iraq and IMHO nothing breeds hatred like fear.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Saturday, April 28, 2007 5:54 PM
Quote:Because we spend more money on the military than the rest of the world combined. Because we have over 800 military installations throughtout the world Because we ring China and Russia. Because we occupy the MIddle East. Because we invaded Iraq and made a complete effing mess of it. Because we've interfered in just about every nation in Central and South Amercia, the Western Pacific, SE Asia and Indonesia in the recent past. Because we nuked two cities. Because we ARE the biggest and most powerful. And what I think scares people the most: Because we seem to think that every action is justified no matter how blatantly self serving- and we have the power to do it
It’s a typical one-sided argument, cherry picking details and hiding behind policy. What you want to discuss are the specific American actions that you believe have contributed to hating America. There are many American actions that have adverse affects on US image in some localized region, but that’s the case with all countries. So how does the US get single out
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Always look upstream.
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Saturday, April 28, 2007 6:25 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Ozzy- go paintball. That's what you're good for.
Let me pour you some more Koolaid.
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